Whats WRONG with the Community???

[kingreol]

What are you basing this judgement on the most?
The Forum? is usually a terrible metric to use, forums generally bring out the critical nature in people. I hardly post in a forum in general because its usually not to lighthearted. and not friendly to new players. not starmade specific

The Individual players: alpha games in general bring out the most intelligent of players first. and with that a lot of spreadsheets, math. Many im sure are also programmers and have a leg up in that they understand the engine in more detail then most.... hubris and arrogance sometimes creeps in.... these players are needed. but the playerbase is small enough that the game is only figured out bye a few.. so only so many will post, it takes some search work. picking peices here and there. eventually this will end. once the game is stable in its balance and all the features put in. then enough of the playerbase will have figured out the game and passed it along.

Instead of comparing it just with Minecraft. compare it to both Minecraft and Eve. as the community brings both worlds. and both communities... brush up on Game Theory, and the Art of War...

 

[ChoMar]

First of all, I might have attecked the wrong People by accident. The first Page of this Thread kinda had me like "ok, thats it." But the second and third page had some good answers, at least in the way of showing me that people DO care. So, thanks for that.
Of yourse, many information is in the WIKI (and yes, I know of the Wiki). But when I was new, about a Month ago, I had trouble with the two docking mechanisms, the old one still creeped through here and there. That didnt make the Start easier. The Weapons are a very complex part, and some questions remained open, initially. Now, I figured all of this out, but its hard for new players. That doesnt mean that people currently maintaining the WIKI do a bad job, just that they could need more help. And the Wiki already is advanced stuff. You need a lot of trial-and-error to get the things you want. Benchs Videos helped a lot. But I dont like Howtos that much in general, because for me it takes much longer to watch a video (20 min or so) than to read, or crossread, a Text. Of course thats a personal preference and it might be safe to ignore my personal preferences.

Let me tell you that all this comes from the point of a SM-Noob that spent lots and lots of time getting to know this stuff. Of course I found the Wiki. Of course ive already figured out that google searches are a bit messed up because of the old wiki. Of course i know how "" works. Im experienced in the Internet. But I had trouble with this game. Now, yeah, you could say "alpha". But even in Alpha, a bigger player base isnt a *bad* thing. From what I researched, and this might be totally wrong, because as I said, the Sourcepool is almost non existent, but it seems as if the count of "active" and "very active" players is actually dropping. The most info comes from the late 2013.

The Council page shows some of my Problems: Yes, there is a council. But the explanation what it does, why it does it, and what it has done so far is generic. Maybe Im especially easy to annoy with generic texts, becuase my RL-Job has me doing a lot of real work on the base of generic blabla.
So, when I said im missing Info, I didnt miss the Council page.
The text on information collecting and presenting it to the dev-team? So, what are they doing and how is the council controlled? Do they have to publically announce the Opinions theyre presenting to the dev? Or can a Council member basically go through with his own opinion, regardless what the Community thinks? Is there any process behind it or does a council member do what he thinks is the best way to do it.
How are the Votes taking place, whats the method there? Simple majority, schulze-method?
Its not that easy to deliver "information". Forums are a good place for that, because everything is basically logged, you can answer questions and a moderator can change the initial info-text and pinn it when necessary. So saying "forums bring out the worst" it might not be totally wrong, but they can also be used to develop rules and help.

As for "join a faction, theyll help you". Thats nice and all, but not my style. Usually I like to know what im doing before getting into any faction, clan or whatever the game calls it.

Plus, a little bit of detail... Im a member of a little group called MTX that has its own Infrastructure. We actually played SE but found that it will probably never work properly in MP. So, I was send out to find a new game and I thought I succeeded. But the Game is difficult, and currently its a lot of work to explain it to a new player.

 

[Matt_Bradock]

Alright, RabidBat I'll fire up the Misquote-a-tron 3000!

Welcome to a world where everyone is different. StarMade is the kind of game that attracts people who are socially awkward. So that is a huge part of the problem, have you ever tried getting someone with social awkwardness to be normal or friendly and sociable? It can be a challenge. They're not intentionally hostile, they just live in a world where they are right and everyone else is wrong, agree with them constantly and you'll be friends for life.

Kinda agree with that, and that accounts to many problems with the community.
This game is made for nerds. We can try to deny it as much as we want to, but an above average level of nerdery is required to start playing a sci-fi space sandbox game where you put together functioning spaceships and space stations from blocks. A similar level of nerdery is required for Space Engineers, From the Depths, Empyrion, and maybe No Man's Sky. A little less of it for Elite: Dangerous and Star Citizen as they are much more hyped for mainstream, and focus on flying the ships instead of building them, offering a more dynamic gameplay where you spend more time in action and require less brainwork.
But in Starmade, don't be surprised when you actually find reclusive, socially awkward and mistrusting nerds, like me, in a game made for nerds. It's bound to happen with this target demographic

Clashing opinions where no one accepts the other's argument is a global Internet thing. It doesn't even have to do anything with gaming at all, just look at the comments under a 9GAG post for example. People get a lot braver if they won't get punched in the face for what they say.

 

[kiraen]

Yes, the wiki people definitely need more help. Unfortunately I'm not very good at that sort of thing or I'd dive right in myself.

The council.
First, this is only the second term. Lots of drama at the start of the first term, which ended up being way longer then it was supposed to be. I think it was supposed to be 3 months, ended being closer to a year. A lot of the details were being shaken out and sorted.

This thread describes how the voting process worked in this last election only a couple weeks past. There were still some issues with the voting process. For example, my votes kept getting denied due to timeout, so I didn't even get to vote. However, I feel confident that the devs will be addressing those issues for the next election. Look for the people with the gold names, like SkylordLuke and Megacrafter127. These are the council members.

How the council works, from a general players perspective. Keep in mind, I don't really know the details, but this is what I understand from comments made by the devs and councilors in other threads. I'm sure someone will correct me.

Each member sifts through the posts made in Suggestions. If they see something interesting, they tag the thread and shoot off a message to the other councilors. (I know they have some sort of secret communication channel, I think it involves tight beam lasers and satellite relays. But I wouldn't rule out irc or just a hidden sub forum.) They then discuss the ideas amongst themselves, prod the original thread with some questions and comments of their own, until they feel that the idea has been squeezed for as much as they can get.
Then they get together with one of the devs (Saber, I think) and pass on what the community has come up with, what's being bitched about the most, and what the players are willing to sell their souls to get. After the meeting, they go through the threads again and adjust the tags accordingly (planned, rejected, brainstorm, recognized, etc...) and make some comments letting the players know which ideas still need work and which ones are to far off the mark. As I understand it the councilors are also under an NDA, so they know some things that we don't but can't tell.
Last term they also ran a few polls to determine play styles and preferences of the community. I wouldn't be surprised if that happened again, or if they ran a few competitions on behalf of the devs. But this is pure speculation. SkylordLuke has also started a sticky thread for Frequent Suggestions, to cut down on repeats and consolidate some of the conversations.
As I said before, the 2nd term has just started. I expect we will see more activity. Seriously, the day after the election I think every thread got tagged, instead of just one or two. They are working hard, even if we don't really see much of what they are doing.

As for joining a faction, meh. Faction permissions are improving, but they aren't quite there yet. I play single-player exclusively. My few attempts at multiplayer just proved that you can't trust any one. I either got a faction leader that knew what he was doing and was paranoid as all hell, or he didn't have a clue and the faction members were running rampant. Yeah, getting killed by a 'team mate' just for lolz was not fun. I have a lot more fun experimenting with my builds on my own. I'm not into pvp, especially when griefing is so easy right now. That's one of the things that really turned me off of Minecraft. Working hard and getting a nice base set up, then you have to go to work and when you get back someone has had a blast and all your hard work is just a crater.

Spoiler: A side note about my 'elitism', not directed at anybody in particular

I have no problem with new players.
My problem is with whiney, bitchy little brats who want everything handed to them on a silver platter and expect to be able to dominate the server because they are a special snowflake who doesn't actually have to work for anything. Seriously, I have seen a post where someone was demanding the entire game be changed because he was getting his ass kicked by people who had been playing 10 times (at least) as long as he had.
If you have the maturity level of a thirteen year old boy, gtfo.
If you are capable of rubbing two brain cells together and walk at the same time, welcome to the forums.

 

[AtraUnam]

In my experience the forums and chat are both very helpful whenever someone asks a legitimate question. Just stay out of the IRC because thats where we go when the topic gets too 'adult'

 

[Jacemachine]

I understand the feeling about the imbalance in the community. My neck of the woods has been /r/starmade for that past couple of years, and people there seem to hate everything that isn't themselves.

I started doing regular StarMade Let's Plays a couple of years ago as well.
My best friend, a guy we call Bugzero couldn't grasp how to play StarMade. Dude is sick smart as well. He's got his nerd cred, but how to set up Power and Weapons was not sinking in.

The entire purpose for my LP's were specifically aimed at trying to teach Bugzero how to play the game. Along the way, I learned more about the game and I am able to teach my understanding of Survival Gameplay to a much larger audience now.

Sven the Slayer(Gothic Farms Gaming), Drakkart, and Gmodism Total Nerdery Channel are all StarMade YouTubers who do wonderful StarMade How To tutorials.

We're all part of the Star Squadron YouTube Survival Server. (SEARCH: STAR SQUADRON STARMADE)

Starmada is a group of similarly minded StarMade LPers who recently showed up on my radar. (SEARCH: STARMADA STARMADE)

And of course the hosts of the semi-regular BLOOD & STEEL COMBAT TOURNAMENT, the fellows over at StarSide aka: Shattered Skies Server (SEARCH: SHATTERED SKIES STARMADE)

Also, there are channels on TWITCH who stream regularly, and who are part of the larger community and can answer questions about the game and where good places are to play it. Personally I know: ToasterBorst, BenEphla, Dalmont, RaibenEFSF, and GamingWithSaber just to name a few.

We're all doing our best to spread STARMADE to the growing community through YouTube and Twitch many of us are approachable and willing to help get new players started with the right places.

In respects to the community.

"In Starmade, don't be surprised when you actually find reclusive, socially awkward and mistrusting nerds, like me, in a game made for nerds. It's bound to happen with this target demographic." -- Matt_Bradock

This was one of my favorite things ever. Thank you Matt and amen.

 

[Malacodor]

A lot of the alleged toxicity (here and in the rest of the internet) is based on misconception/misperception. In real life feelings are communicated mostly through body language, not through words. What one says isn't as important as how one says it. This gets lost completely over the internet. Judging someone's intentions from what they wrote often means ignoring 80% of the relevant information.
Simply writing down word by word what one would say face to face means taking it out of context, with the body language being the context. So it's also the fault of the writer, but not everyone realizes this and even if one does, expressing ones feelings entirely with words is difficult. If you think it's not, then you should realize that not everybody is as eloquent as you.

Some people are really socially awkward, some were just socialized in a different environment. Some people toss around sweardwords without any bad intention on a regular basis because that's what they are used to, while some others disguise insults as seemingly harmless criticism due to their fear of appearing crude. The former don't take cristicism serious unless backed up with an above average amount of insults, while the latter feel easily insulted by justified cristicism. People from every point between these extremes then come together in the internet and try to judge each other by measurements that aren't necessarily valid outside of their peer group.

People get a lot braver if they won't get punched in the face for what they say.

Or they grew up in an environment where people generally don't get punched in the face for what they say.

If you have the maturity level of a thirteen year old boy, gtfo.

Most people with the maturity level of a thirteen year old kid are in fact thirteen years old and thus can't be expected to act mature. Some are older, but maturity isn't only a matter of age, but also a matter of influence. So instead of disowning immature people (which in my mind is immature as well), why not try to be a positive influence?

So what's the essence of all this? If you smell bad intentions it might as well be your nose being overly sensitive. My experience is that granting others the benefit of the doubt makes me feel better since I get angry about them a lot less.

When it comes to using the beam/cannon combo, if you want to maximize your DPS/output, then the most efficient ration of beam:cannon is 100:78. 78 is the sweet spot where the raw damage output is still at it's peak, but the tick rate has increased drastically. It's the peak of the amount of damage you can do with beam/cannons, and I can imagine that it'd be the same for cannon/cannon.

Does this take the various cannon and beam related bugs into account? :p

 

[MrFURB]

A lot of the hostility on the site can be tracked down to specific people or groups of people who operate on a different culture or mindset than the forum commons. As a moderator we can't ban 'em all "just because" but they do have a habit of crossing lines and are eventually removed for misbehavior.

So what's the essence of all this? If you smell bad intentions it might as well be your nose being overly sensitive. My experience is that granting others the benefit of the doubt makes me feel better since I get angry about them a lot less.

There is some solid advice I was told a while ago that I've kept close to heart since then.

Always interpret someone's arguments in the best way possible. I believe it is called the 'principle of charity', and I have yet to lose an argument with it.

 

[kingreol]

this might also be a general trend with gaming itself. and you are sensitive to it. a trend of the social political entering into the community? some people are unhappy with moderation at all and want a dog eat dog community. others want a no offensive content what so ever. collective work for the betterment of the player base. (as a babylon 5 fan, shadows vrs vorlons makes a good anology)..

 

[Blaza612]

this might also be a general trend with gaming itself. and you are sensitive to it. a trend of the social political entering into the community? some people are unhappy with moderation at all and want a dog eat dog community. others want a no offensive content what so ever. collective work for the betterment of the player base. (as a babylon 5 fan, shadows vrs vorlons makes a good anology)..

While moderation is good and all, the mods here seem to be a tad bit too strict. This isn't saying I want them gone, as I'm glad that they got rid of Odium when they thought it'd be a good idea to dox their war opponents. And those who want no offensive content whatsoever are just whiny little bitches. :p

 

[kingreol]

While moderation is good and all, the mods here seem to be a tad bit too strict. This isn't saying I want them gone, as I'm glad that they got rid of Odium when they thought it'd be a good idea to dox their war opponents. And those who want no offensive content whatsoever are just whiny little bitches. :p

i took some time a few weeks ago and read all the stuff about the doxxing.. that alone can kill a community..the first time i heard about doxxing was with nude pictures being used to get back at some past lover. so from a new players perspective, that can scare anyone who happens to check out the forums. and im glad something is done about it.

 

[Bench]

The difficulty with moderation is that unlike Minecraft, StarMade encourages a lot more PVP with teaming up one against the other through factions, and that approach can flood over into the forums

 

[Criss]

The forums were just as sour back then, and little has changed.

I am seeing a healthy discussion with only one or two posts that were not constructive. It might not be the most beneficial approach to a new player that has concerns, by saying nobody on this forum can help them?

for me it takes much longer to watch a video (20 min or so) than to read, or crossread, a Text

There do seem to be a distinct lack of guides. A full tutorial series is planned for the main StarMade channel but a written guide would be of more use to you yes? If so then I am sure we can find some time to work on official guides that may even be more in-depth. The tutorial series will cover a wide variety of topics however it will take a while to film everything and ensure it is kept up to date.

So, what are they doing and how is the council controlled?

Each member sifts through the posts made in Suggestions. If they see something interesting, they tag the thread and shoot off a message to the other councilors. (I know they have some sort of secret communication channel, I think it involves tight beam lasers and satellite relays. But I wouldn't rule out irc or just a hidden sub forum.) They then discuss the ideas amongst themselves, prod the original thread with some questions and comments of their own, until they feel that the idea has been squeezed for as much as they can get.
Then they get together with one of the devs (Saber, I think) and pass on what the community has come up with, what's being bitched about the most, and what the players are willing to sell their souls to get. After the meeting, they go through the threads again and adjust the tags accordingly (planned, rejected, brainstorm, recognized, etc...) and make some comments letting the players know which ideas still need work and which ones are to far off the mark. As I understand it the councilors are also under an NDA, so they know some things that we don't but can't tell.

I can clarify on the current process. There is a Slack site available for them to discuss in a number of different rooms their various topics. One of them is specifically dedicated to suggestions that they find. They read it and tag it. I am usually the one that comes onto the forums, reads it and gives a response. I will retag it and document it. When we work on areas of the game that relate to these suggestions they will be brought up. The majority of information and ideas that are passed to me are not the councilors, a vast majority of them are suggestions written daily by players.

Duke is present to ensure everyone has what they need, NDA, access to documents etc. Lancake is present to discuss balance changes with the councilors. Bench has all of StarMade in his head and so he outlines future plans for everyone. And I handle them mostly on the day to day stuff. Some of their ideas are not exactly for the game but how we can improve the company, the relationship with the playerbase or how we can get more exposure. They are doing a fine job so far and seem more invested than the previous council term.

 

[Broomsage]

I gotta say, the community has been nothing but nice to me here, mostly because I don't ask stupid questions. So here begins my tutorial on not asking stupid questions:

1. Experiment
That's how you starmade. This was a bit harder when creative mode wasn't a thing. But now there is no real excuse. You cant expect to read a wiki and suddenly be able to eviscerate all who stand before you. Discovering mechanics is part of the fun. I suggest you start with power.

2. Take what the community offers (some espionage[just a little])
Its all right here, and its so easy. Bench's rail tutorials offer the basics but you need to Experiment to actually get anything out of them. As for advanced mechanics, just be in chat when crazy logic people get drunk and spill their secrets. Or spy on them ingame from a cloakship.

3.Find a group
Bring some friends or make some friends here. Either way it makes it easier to do steps 1 and 2

4. Don't be an ass
You cant do 1, 2, or 3 if you are an ass.

Enjoying this game rests on 4 virtues:

1. Independence 2.Persistence 3.Patience 4. Don't be an ass

 

[Blaza612]

I gotta say, the community has been nothing but nice to me here, mostly because I don't ask stupid questions. So here begins my tutorial on not asking stupid questions:

1. Experiment
That's how you starmade. This was a bit harder when creative mode wasn't a thing. But now there is no real excuse. You cant expect to read a wiki and suddenly be able to eviscerate all who stand before you. Discovering mechanics is part of the fun. I suggest you start with power.

2. Take what the community offers (some espionage[just a little])
Its all right here, and its so easy. Bench's rail tutorials offer the basics but you need to Experiment to actually get anything out of them. As for advanced mechanics, just be in chat when crazy logic people get drunk and spill their secrets. Or spy on them ingame from a cloakship.

3.Find a group
Bring some friends or make some friends here. Either way it makes it easier to do steps 1 and 2

4. Don't be an ass
You cant do 1, 2, or 3 if you are an ass.

Enjoying this game rests on 4 virtues:

1. Independence 2.Persistence 3.Patience 4. Don't be an ass

The broom has spoken wisely...

 

[kiraen]

Enjoying this game rests on 4 virtues:
1. Independence 2.Persistence 3.Patience 4. Don't be an ass

I don't think Yoda could have said it better.

 

[ChoMar]

A little clarification of my Part. I have figured out lots of the stuff. I have figured a bit more out through this thread, and more search. As stated, I am good with text, and researching. I have already build a working 5-deck elevator with rails, wich was fun. Learned everything i need so far about a) rails and b) logic. (I though about building "turbolifts" going in horizontal and vertical directions, but somehow i didnt find a good reason for that amount of work)
One of the reasons for the initial, a little bit provocative, statement was that some of this was more work than it should be for new players. Even the Elevator, thats just semi-basic logic. I didnt find a well explained Example of one. I would use mine, but I know there are better ones out there as mine can only handle two Inputs max. and gets wobbly when a third comes.

A full tutorial series is planned for the main StarMade channel but a written guide would be of more use to you yes?

Yes...
Both methods have their distinct advantages and disadvantages.
Text is sometimes harder to write and depending on the wirter, it might be harder to understand as well.
But Text allows for a quick look of a specific thing, while finding this in a Video might be more difficult. Watching a Video might take longer than reading a Howto.
Text is also easier to translate and to read for foreign players. I have no problem at all understanding Bench in his tutorials, but that might be different for someone speaking english only on a rudimentary level. On the other hand, less understanding is needed when you see the stuff being done on screen.
I dont know if there is a real need for text-howtos. I think it might help.

As for the Council, thanks for the Clarifications. Now, someone should throw that in a goot text and put it on the Council-page.

1. Experiment
That's how you starmade. This was a bit harder when creative mode wasn't a thing. But now there is no real excuse. You cant expect to read a wiki and suddenly be able to eviscerate all who stand before you. Discovering mechanics is part of the fun. I suggest you start with power.

Agree, BUT: I had to experiment about two weeks until I mostly understood Starmade. Of course, I did other things as well and one of the things I couldnt get into my head at first was the sheer SCALE of things. Maybe, like, 10 or 20 Hours would be enough?
Now, thats ok, if you want to do Singleplayer. But if a Friend tells you "hey, Starmade, lets play together" you dont want to go through a long learning phase alone. And you cant do it with you friend, because he probably will be on a non-creative server. I would also add that I dont like the idea that "understanding the Game" is the Challenge.
And thats where my Problem appears:
If I were the new player, I would be ok with being redirected to the Wiki. A 100% accurate Wiki. With some starter tips and stuff. Delivered on a "silver plate", if you like. I dont think thats a bad thing if it comes to understanding the Game. Building nice, big ships, advanced logic and all that things is enough work if you fully understood the game.
Youtube Videos also do help lots of people, and bench is doing a good job there as far as I can tell (i only watched some of them for specific purposes)

 

[Megacrafter127]

Both methods have their distinct advantages and disadvantages.
Text is sometimes harder to write and depending on the wirter, it might be harder to understand as well.
But Text allows for a quick look of a specific thing, while finding this in a Video might be more difficult. Watching a Video might take longer than reading a Howto.
Text is also easier to translate and to read for foreign players. I have no problem at all understanding Bench in his tutorials, but that might be different for someone speaking english only on a rudimentary level. On the other hand, less understanding is needed when you see the stuff being done on screen.
I dont know if there is a real need for text-howtos. I think it might help.

If there is a need for howtos, then one can generally say, that the need for each type(video/audio, text) is about equal. Video/Audio tutorials are great for people with no prior knowledge, as knowledge can be conveyed and understood more easily. Text howtos are generally better for those with partial, but not complete knowledge of the subject, since(as you already pointed out), they can easily be searched, and already known parts thus also more easily skipped. That the information might not be as easily conveyed or understood doesn't matter as much, as the reader already has partial knowledge.
As such I usually say, that the need for a howto or tutorial is equally distributed on both methods, although text is favored over time, as partial knowledge spreads.

 

[Dire Venom]

To be fair starmade defiantly needs a fully flashed out tutorial. It can be very confusing and overwhelming for new players.
If ive got some spare time on a multiplayer server Ill often take a new player under my wing and teach them all I know.
Done that for over a year, however Ive since stopped that due to a recent bad experience where I helped a player out (and let them in my faction on the Shattered skies server) only to have them take all my stuff and leave. Sorta ruined the experience for me.

 

[TheWurm]

So, I'm going to resist the urge to nitpick a few posts above me ("more than ten hours a day" indeed...) and give my two cents as to what the issue is with the community. I will say this is sort of a hunch on my part, based on my observations of the community.

I believe that the majority of major arguments between forum posters on this site are due to differing visions of what the game is going to be at the end. Some seem to think it's going to be a pretty direct analog of Minecraft ('Star-craft' if you will), a space RPG sandbox. IN SPACE! Others think it will be a simulator (once again IN SPACE!) with oxygen, happiness for NPCs, etc. After reading the Developement direction I get the feeling of something like a mix between Majesty and Age of Wonders III with a little Allegiance, (none of which I will link despite their obscurity because I'm definitely an elitist snob who does nothing to grow the community of anything), also IN SPACE! Others seem to think the game is going to be.... nothing, I guess. they get upset about there being nothing to do and act like killing pirates is going to be the end of the gameplay. in space.

Now chances are we are all horribly wrong, or at least only right by shear luck, but either way I feel like the next few months of updates are going to help unify our visions for this game so we can move forward together, with an unbreakable shared purpose that will help us raise this community into the stuff of legend, riding a banner of goodwill and brotherly/sisterly love that will....

HA HA HA HA HA!!!!! I had you going for a second I bet. But seriously, I think we'll see less and less of the major flame wars as more of us finally catch the vision of the end goal for Starmade, and I have high hopes for the next ~three months of development. And then of course, if we can hold on through to a stable Beta we should be ready to really kick the growth into high gear.

And THAT is when we'll really see some trolls.