Who do we want as Counselors?

[Matt_Bradock]

It is the same as:

When you drive a street with 4 red amps and 6 green, you might remember 2 or 3 green amps and 4 red, believing the amps are mostly red.
​

Background changes don't help if nobody sees the amount of work done.

And seeing the work done, SHOWING the work done, would be the Council's and the community liaison's responsibility. Hence why the dev blog's such a great idea.
Unfortunately, the NDAs were taken so seriously, the Council simply wasn't allowed to reassure the community, because that would have required disclosing information under the NDA, I guess.

 

[Aynslei]

And seeing the work done, SHOWING the work done, would be the Council's and the community liaison's responsibility. Hence why the dev blog's such a great idea.
Unfortunately, the NDAs were taken so seriously, the Council simply wasn't allowed to reassure the community, because that would have required disclosing information under the NDA, I guess.

More transparency is key to the future of the council, not in regards to what Schine says to them, but in what the individual councilors are pushing for and what they collectively want discussed.

 

[Master_Artificer]

wait how long are polls open for?

 

[Employee763]

I just want someone who is a good christ-yan and loves jeee-sus and aint onnah dem homo-sexuals

It is the same as:

When you drive a street with 4 red amps and 6 green, you might remember 2 or 3 green amps and 4 red, believing the amps are mostly red.
​

Background changes don't help if nobody sees the amount of work done.

What's up with that format, man?

 

[kiraen]

As information conduits, what the councilors do with their time in game is pretty irrelevant. As long as they are in touch with the community and can relay the community's wants and desires to Schine objectively, then they are doing their job.

Their job is not to relay information to the community from Schine.
Their job is not to decide which suggestions are valid.
Their job is not to determine development direction.
This all appears to be Bench's job (based on his name being on all the dev blogs, but at least someone who actually gets a paycheck from Schine GMBH).


My criteria for voting:

1. Can spend 10+ hours a week on CIR stuff. (commited)
   
2. Has put their money where their mouth is and actually bought a copy of the game. (invested)
3. No disciplinary actions since application filed. (mature)

Pretty basic if you ask me. Of the 45 applicants, this narrows it down to 17 possibles. These people will all get votes. What order I vote for them will be determined by community involvement. (some of those application were just laughable)

I will not be casting my votes until the 20th, the last day.

 

[Bench]

wait how long are polls open for?

2 Weeks.

 

[Zackey_TNT]

The problem with the council is their lack of experance, They do not understand fully the concept of power for example nor do they have the full idea of the implications that a feature could have on a major mechanic.

The idea of getting someone inside who fully understands the concepts of deeper level systems such as dynamic power axis trees or multi ship-turret ratios is good one but here's the problem, Pvpers and in general people who understand the game fully don't want a f**king thing to do with the forums, they want to stay far farrrr farrrrrrrr away from here and focus on further development of their tech.

I've worked with many people for a long time and i'll tell you this anyone who knows anything doesn't waste their time here nor do they care about voicing their opinion not because the forum is bad but because they are more interested in gaining more experance until, inevitably, they burn out or reach the ultimate singularity of starmade.

I've thought about running for council, I feel i could potentially provide much insight into pvp and deeper level game mechanics however I've never ran for a council before and I am afraid to approach the task plus the fact, i'm biased and I know it...

None the less, I personally would like to see an unbiased true pvp player inside the council to raise awareness of the sad pitiful state of pvp atm, Someone who is willing to admit the game has flaws and is not blinded by simple favoritism over one type of combat loadout or weapon atc.

Also, Pvp in starmade should not copy and paste another games type but rather should be a dynamic system to cater to all types of play, Do not go with the norm this game can have diversity my only advice is do not dumb it down, no matter how many people complain about the learning curve starmade is unique in that it is a really really really deep game don't give that up schine, Don't ruin this game.
[DOUBLEPOST=1452076424,1452074789][/DOUBLEPOST]One more thing to note here, Looking at the Q&A for councilor runners I believe most of the members are running for the lulz and are not really taking this all too seriously, I now feel like the forum as a whole needs to be alot more professional about the council as it is quite powerful

 

[Drakkart]

I don't feel like I want builders as counselors anymore. I want people who understand the mechanics of the game and how to build competitive ships.

Not so that a new style of ship combat emerges or anything, but to help refine what we got, because what we got is pretty good.
Also that way not all the work is on Lancake to run everything.

Sure builders push for pretty blocks and new we have fans and slabs, but I want more mechanics now.
The cargo update was awesome. The Rail update was awesome. The Thrust update was awesome. The shipyards still needs to be finished, but the fact that it is in is awesome.


But I want more conflict in this game, not "build ships and collect dust". I want to use them, and not on build servers or events. I want to fight FOR something, or fight over something, WITH a competent opponent who is trying to kill me in this game too. (ares mod is a lot of fun, but it doesn't have meaning or lasting effect like survival does).

Bring on the mining update, the economy update, and the pirate update. But for people to handle this, I think we should vote in players who know mechanics, and discover cheaty exploits.

I want people who when they receive the box with instructions, they read the instructions, take apart the box, and then find a whole new use for the dang thing. They know the box inside and out, and I think we should have at least one or two people like that who know the box and work with the community.

What say you?

I would persoanlly add Ai driven NPC factions operating as they see fit being it a minig "village station" looking for trade being it a freelance tradeship crew looking for profits... contributing to a generic questsystem, influencing a demand driven economy.
That is what i want, a living and breathing universe.

 

[Ithirahad]

Also, Pvp in starmade should not copy and paste another games type but rather should be a dynamic system to cater to all types of play, Do not go with the norm this game can have diversity my only advice is do not dumb it down, no matter how many people complain about the learning curve starmade is unique in that it is a really really really deep game don't give that up schine, Don't ruin this game.

No, but the problem is, it isn't necessarily the depth that gives it a terrible learning curve, it's just... messy... and confusing... And awkward...

 

[Keptick]

The problem with the council is their lack of experance, They do not understand fully the concept of power for example nor do they have the full idea of the implications that a feature could have on a major mechanic.

The idea of getting someone inside who fully understands the concepts of deeper level systems such as dynamic power axis trees or multi ship-turret ratios is good one but here's the problem, Pvpers and in general people who understand the game fully don't want a f**king thing to do with the forums, they want to stay far farrrr farrrrrrrr away from here and focus on further development of their tech.

I've worked with many people for a long time and i'll tell you this anyone who knows anything doesn't waste their time here nor do they care about voicing their opinion not because the forum is bad but because they are more interested in gaining more experance until, inevitably, they burn out or reach the ultimate singularity of starmade.

I've thought about running for council, I feel i could potentially provide much insight into pvp and deeper level game mechanics however I've never ran for a council before and I am afraid to approach the task plus the fact, i'm biased and I know it...

None the less, I personally would like to see an unbiased true pvp player inside the council to raise awareness of the sad pitiful state of pvp atm, Someone who is willing to admit the game has flaws and is not blinded by simple favoritism over one type of combat loadout or weapon atc.

Also, Pvp in starmade should not copy and paste another games type but rather should be a dynamic system to cater to all types of play, Do not go with the norm this game can have diversity my only advice is do not dumb it down, no matter how many people complain about the learning curve starmade is unique in that it is a really really really deep game don't give that up schine, Don't ruin this game.
[DOUBLEPOST=1452076424,1452074789][/DOUBLEPOST]One more thing to note here, Looking at the Q&A for councilor runners I believe most of the members are running for the lulz and are not really taking this all too seriously, I now feel like the forum as a whole needs to be alot more professional about the council as it is quite powerful

The scaling of weapon effectiveness agaist blocks (other than cannon/cannon and missiles) is pathetic. This is due to the fact that projectiles do not scale in size, and an overly steep damage curve. It is also compounded by the grouping power penalty and the lag induced by multiple outputs (reducing our options), making large ship mounted weapons (other than the ones mentioned above) inefficient at best, inoperable at worst. Splitting up an array with logic or sticking it on a turret with mutliple computers to counter the power deficit induced by the grouping nerf doesn't remove lag. In addition, it makes aiming a nightmare. As such, the only viable anti-block weapon on ships bigger than fighters are cannon/cannon and missiles, with the rest being as useful as throwing rocks. Other problems: Lack of turret targeting priority settings, turrets lagging everything out, no fleet control (making small ships fairly useless), complete lack of reasons to fight in the first place, disproportionate risk VS reward (lack of reward besides personal pleasure in blowing shit up). Producing ships is a massive pain in the ***, making losing them even worse (so people sit in their homebase all day). That was just a few of the MANY things wrong with PvP, there are many more things I could've said.

There, happy? Just because you don't see people play on the same server as you doesn't mean they don't know anything about the game. Also, don't assume the Council was all about RP and building (most of it wasn't) and that we were a bunch of ignorants. In fact, I was constantly harrassing the devs about PvP issues. Just ask Criss

Honestly, your "is on forums therefore must be shit at the game" argument is pretty ridiculous, no offense. And yes, I know how the power mechanic works.

 

[NeonSturm]

As information conduits, what the councilors do with their time in game is pretty irrelevant. As long as they are in touch with the community and can relay the community's wants and desires to Schine objectively, then they are doing their job.

Their job is not to relay information to the community from Schine.
Their job is not to decide which suggestions are valid.
Their job is not to determine development direction.
This all appears to be Bench's job (based on his name being on all the dev blogs, but at least someone who actually gets a paycheck from Schine GMBH).


My criteria for voting:

1. Can spend 10+ hours a week on CIR stuff. (commited)
   
2. Has put their money where their mouth is and actually bought a copy of the game. (invested)
3. No disciplinary actions since application filed. (mature)

Pretty basic if you ask me. Of the 45 applicants, this narrows it down to 17 possibles. These people will all get votes. What order I vote for them will be determined by community involvement. (some of those application were just laughable)

I will not be casting my votes until the 20th, the last day.

The problem with the council is their lack of experance, They do not understand fully the concept of power for example nor do they have the full idea of the implications that a feature could have on a major mechanic.

If you own a million, what is 15€? And 15€ is a month living in some countries. Money is too uneven distributed for it to be used as a "dedication-statement".

I would only vote for peoples >24 and >18 in some cases, if I would knew.
With 18 you go out of home or are fully responsible by law. After that, most still need some experience until you get some stuff right.

But few "child" or "very young adult" is not wrong to have as representative of this age and knowledge-class.
Still some don't have the responsibility for a month-long term and it's even more unlikely young ones have it.

​

The idea of getting someone inside who fully understands the concepts of deeper level systems such as dynamic power axis trees or multi ship-turret ratios is good one but here's the problem, Pvpers and in general people who understand the game fully don't want a f**king thing to do with the forums, they want to stay far farrrr farrrrrrrr away from here and focus on further development of their tech.

HAHAHA I am an exception.

In forums, there are so many "immature" peoples that haven't learned yet how to understand my posts, math, program-code or commenting on stuff I already have answered or proofed invalid.
It's always the worst actions you remember the best.

Program-code is math to those who know and magic to those who don't. In medieval age, witches using magic were burned.
I don't want to get burned for programming the big ones don't like when MS+Apple rule over access to the internet. How immature from (not only) Germans to accept the rule of a single foreigner over the software they need to access the infinite freedom the internet could provide and which they need to work in their jobs.​

Would you like a proof-questioning? (I am not particularly a fan of these - in Germany you sometimes have more work doing proof than it's worth. But you have to ).

 

[Master_Artificer]

I am 22, and in college. I know I wouldn't be able to commit enough time to the counsel work, and it would also eliminate me from the time I use to play the game, causing a disconnect between what I feel about the game and what the game is at.

Also it's not a title, it is actually work. I don't want to quite commit to that and to only lose interest a month down the road or whatever.
Hence why I vote for people that I feel like could do what I want for me, instead of applying to do it myself.

I could try to get all my faction mates in, but then they would be putting maybe more time into the counsel instead of ship building and the faction itself, and it might effect the faction negatively.

I could try youtubers, but they already have a full plate and it might not be the best fit. Would be best if maybe they supported someone to do the stuff for them maybe and they can continue investing their time into their community and videos.

Interesting to see other peoples views on this topic you all raise really good points.

 

[Zackey_TNT]

I should clarify, I was not talking on the subject of game balance, I was talking about the goals we are trying to reach.

When the weapon update was released schine intended to promote diversity and different play styles many of their features are likely added due to this vision.

I like this idea, I think that schine should continue to promote diversity and not follow a liner closed development path.

Please, Do not talk about game balance, Right now it seems that schine are just throwing ideas around as to how to balance the game what they need badly is someone who is experienced in pvp/pve and gameplay at a deeper level, In a scene they need someone who understands their own game.
[DOUBLEPOST=1452122648,1452122261][/DOUBLEPOST]

If you own a million, what is 15€? And 15€ is a month living in some countries. Money is too uneven distributed for it to be used as a "dedication-statement".

I would only vote for peoples >24 and >18 in some cases, if I would knew.
With 18 you go out of home or are fully responsible by law. After that, most still need some experience until you get some stuff right.

But few "child" or "very young adult" is not wrong to have as representative of this age and knowledge-class.
Still some don't have the responsibility for a month-long term and it's even more unlikely young ones have it.

​

HAHAHA I am an exception.

In forums, there are so many "immature" peoples that haven't learned yet how to understand my posts, math, program-code or commenting on stuff I already have answered or proofed invalid.
It's always the worst actions you remember the best.

Program-code is math to those who know and magic to those who don't. In medieval age, witches using magic were burned.
I don't want to get burned for programming the big ones don't like when MS+Apple rule over access to the internet. How immature from (not only) Germans to accept the rule of a single foreigner over the software they need to access the infinite freedom the internet could provide and which they need to work in their jobs.​

Would you like a proof-questioning? (I am not particularly a fan of these - in Germany you sometimes have more work doing proof than it's worth. But you have to ).

Interesting, I believe germans are the most active in research and development as a friend of mine is also a mix of german and other related traits.

 

[MacThule]

I agree with the OP and voted along those lines.

Decor is great, but we've got a lot of that. I want more focus on combat balance, economics, NPCs, maybe get fuel implemented, continue improving performance, continue improving interface - stuff that improves game-play. Less shiny-shiny new stuff to decorate... (though slabs are pretty awesome).

 

[Bogdan]

This thread is the living embodiment of how when the people on this forum actually start taking things professionally they come up with fantastic ideas. I hope this continues as this has already been a 'golden nest' of information for those who'd want to improve this game. Whether these ideas be possibilities for the major AI developments:

I would persoanlly add Ai driven NPC factions operating as they see fit being it a minig "village station" looking for trade being it a freelance tradeship crew looking for profits... contributing to a generic questsystem, influencing a demand driven economy.
That is what i want, a living and breathing universe.

Or the developments of other major aspects of the game:

Artificer, I totally feel your pain.

The factions scene both in the forums and serverside has become extremely dead and meaningless. The game has no point, and the ones who try to make a point (by starting wars etc.) are declared assholes because they have no reason. The economy is completely borked, just too boring the way it is, nobody wants to make ships to fight, and those who have ships, have no reason to fight. I was on GenXnova day before yesterday, looking at the online players. There were ONLY 1 man factions (probably it was just my timing), but point being, factions don't matter, they should matter because multiplayer is just so damn boring now. Shipyards are cool, storage is cool, slabs are cool rails are cool, but now really we need something to play online together for.

In my opinion playing together for a common goal is the most fun thing in the game. After leaving my 1 man pirate faction, and playing with some friends to develop ships against a common foe who kept warring with them, was so fun. Then fighting was even better. But this was only shortlived. Soon people got bored, because in the end, apart from making up wars, there was no point in them. Eventually we would just quit the servers (talking about old Brierie here).

I just really wish we could have a purpose to playing multiplayer, because I really would like it so much if there is one. I really just wished there was a proper economy, a proper meaning to claiming territory, and this would give a meaning to war and diplomacy and factions. It feels like these things are being completely ignored by the devs, and it really is time for the councillors who are not builders - but actual multiplayer players who have actual experience - to speak up!

Here are some threads I'm talking about that can give insight into what ought to be changed from actual players.
https://starmadedock.net/threads/the-solution-to-economy-the-exchange.22474/
https://starmadedock.net/threads/un...-and-density-getting-the-wheels-turning.6425/
https://starmadedock.net/threads/raw-resources-used-in-shipyard-bp-construction.22232/

All of them are worth looking into and I sincerely hope that there will not be any messing about on this thread with random irrelevant images, irrelevant jokes etc.

I guess I will chime in here. I don't think the council should even be a matter of public choice.

Yes I am a gamer in this community, and I would want my input to be valued like any other member here.
However I don't think that getting the player-base to decide member ship will benefit Schine in the log run with finding dedicated and knowledgeable councilors to help inform them of the player-base.

If Schine chose the council, and every action that council proposed / voted on / discussed was made public then later passed on to allow public discourse we could get more done. People would end up finding out which councilor actually thought and performed in ways they could agree with and show support for that councilor.

The council has never been about telling Schine what to do, I always understood its purpose as to be a medium between Schine and the community.

I just don't like the idea of the community making a choice and then not really knowing how their vote really mattered in the end.

I also agree with Aynslei that perhaps the whole idea of a community-chosen council is wrong. Schine has shown again and again that they can make wonders and this game has become 1000 times better than it was originally. Let THEM choose. Let THEM decide. They most definitely know better than most of us. Would you really vote for somebody that says they want to fart rainbows, bring war or takes the piss out of the voting process in real life? Then why would you do so here. Faction based political bias affects everyone. I will not lie, my vote was affected by this as well (Not top 5, but afterwards yes) and I am not proud of this.
If you give a dumb peasant a computer with all the resources he will not make a fascinating program. If you give a master programmer a plow he will not be a very good farmer. The conclusion? Put the power where it belongs. Let the people that know how to do this best do it.
You think this is a non-existant theory? It's linked with Meritocracy and if the Mongol hordes of the 12-13th century figured it out, why can't we?

 

[Zackey_TNT]

This thread is the living embodiment of how when the people on this forum actually start taking things professionally they come up with fantastic ideas. I hope this continues as this has already been a 'golden nest' of information for those who'd want to improve this game. Whether these ideas be possibilities for the major AI developments:

Or the developments of other major aspects of the game:

All of them are worth looking into and I sincerely hope that there will not be any messing about on this thread with random irrelevant images, irrelevant jokes etc.




I also agree with Aynslei that perhaps the whole idea of a community-chosen council is wrong. Schine has shown again and again that they can make wonders and this game has become 1000 times better than it was originally. Let THEM choose. Let THEM decide. They most definitely know better than most of us. Would you really vote for somebody that says they want to fart rainbows, bring war or takes the piss out of the voting process in real life? Then why would you do so here. Faction based political bias affects everyone. I will not lie, my vote was affected by this as well (Not top 5, but afterwards yes) and I am not proud of this.
If you give a dumb peasant a computer with all the resources he will not make a fascinating program. If you give a master programmer a plow he will not be a very good farmer. The conclusion? Put the power where it belongs. Let the people that know how to do this best do it.
You think this is a non-existant theory? It's linked with Meritocracy and if the Mongol hordes of the 12-13th century figured it out, why can't we?

What you outlined is how the council really works, They provide suggestions that are taken from the suggestions box, Schine doesn't have to listen to them and often doesn't.

The council is only there to filter out the stupid, dumb, idioitic suggestions that get posted, All additions to the game must go through schine staff first.

 

[godmars]

I also agree with Aynslei that perhaps the whole idea of a community-chosen council is wrong. Schine has shown again and again that they can make wonders and this game has become 1000 times better than it was originally. Let THEM choose. Let THEM decide.

i mean its their idea in the first place to have a community elected council.
I doubt they have the time to sift through everyone who wants to be in the council. which is why its left to the community

 

[NeonSturm]

You think this is a non-existant theory? It's linked with Meritocracy and if the Mongol hordes of the 12-13th century figured it out, why can't we?

You linked an interesting Wiki (which I will spend some time on), but your argument has flaws (see below).

Those who do not conform, face increased probability being denied degrees _
_ in a society that treats degrees as a mandatory condition of access to the economic goods of society.

This selection process has pervasive effects on the educational system, including

• systematic dumbing-down of curricula,
• stifling of intellectual curiosity and its limitation to economically remunerative fields,
• encouragement of academic dishonesty,
• and "degree inflation".

You can never be sure that the one who made the degrees has thought everything out correctly.

Neither you can be sure that the applicant didn't learned just for the test itself.

This also rules out peoples which might have an unique idea which leads to more improvement than a topic-skilled human can do.

For example: An experienced serial-killer is the best warrior if you get him into the enemy society. Do you want to support it?

​

We need a representation of every topic.

And every player votes the one he thinks is representing this one topic he cares most about.

Would be interesting to see the reasons why somebody got voted (independent of which voter had the exact reason).

The source of the reason being applicant-info, personal-experience, …​

With real peoples you build up a relation. With virtual peoples it is less reliable,

• especially new joining and games,
• where the majority is here for about 2 years only,
• and only see others via forum (text is not as meaningful as speech or live-meetings)

 

[Bogdan]

Spoiler: My reply to NeonSturm's message

You linked an interesting Wiki (which I will spend some time on), but your argument has flaws (see below).

You can never be sure that the one who made the degrees has thought everything out correctly.

Neither you can be sure that the applicant didn't learned just for the test itself.

This also rules out peoples which might have an unique idea which leads to more improvement than a topic-skilled human can do.

For example: An experienced serial-killer is the best warrior if you get him into the enemy society. Do you want to support it?

​

We need a representation of every topic.

And every player votes the one he thinks is representing this one topic he cares most about.

Would be interesting to see the reasons why somebody got voted (independent of which voter had the exact reason).

The source of the reason being applicant-info, personal-experience, …​

With real peoples you build up a relation. With virtual peoples it is less reliable,

• especially new joining and games,
• where the majority is here for about 2 years only,
• and only see others via forum (text is not as meaningful as speech or live-meetings)

I can never be sure that the one who made the degrees has thought everything out correctly...Yes that is correct, however if we went along those lines we would not have a government since nobody's perfect.

I think that a few applicants here would hesitate to even learn just for a 'test', while I believe that there shouldn't be any 'test' and their overall contribution should be taken into account, their practical and real contributions and their behaviour.

This also rules out peoples which might have an unique idea which leads to more improvement than a topic-skilled human can do.

For example: An experienced serial-killer is the best warrior if you get him into the enemy society. Do you want to support it?​

​

Not really sure what you are saying here.....'Do I support the putting off someone best suited for the task in their best role?'...yes.
For your example, you don't need the serial killer to do anything else 'cept for kill, right? Well just pay him to kill. Send him to the enemy, let him do what he is good at while let the other members of council do what they are good at. Everyone doing that little part at which they are pro.

And every player votes the one he thinks is representing this one topic he cares most about.

If that was the case, I would understand, however quite a few players, who don't really read suggestions pages just vote for their friends/faction members/leaders etc., which defeats the point of voting for the most suitable candidates.

The source of the reason being applicant-info, personal-experience, …

Would be interesting to see the reasons why somebody got voted (independent of which voter had the exact reason).

Yes it would. And I'm sure that in many cases it would turn out that there was some political bias involved (faction politics that is) or friendship-bias etc.

You say we need a representation of every topic. I agree. Wholeheartedly. Just get say 3 people who each is very good at a topic (or few). As long as you choose the people best suited for the job, even if they look ugly, are effeminate, too masculine, have a horrible sense of fashion...IT DOES NOT MATTER. What does matter is that they are good at something that is needed now. If it's needed, it's a requirement, if it's a requirement, we need to fill that requirement.

Keep up the good work everyone offering up ideas of what we need at this point!

 

[NeonSturm]

Ok. Extremely simplified - 2 seats, 2 voters :

Imagine I vote "Best-Artist-#1" and then "Best-YouTuber" and then "Best-MathFreak"
Another votes "Best-Artist-#2" and then "Best-MathFreak" and then "Best-YouTuber"​

And now you stick with 2 Artists but neither a YouTuber or MathFreak.​

Maybe it is a bit too simplified - many perspectives exist. But it always evolves around many of Type-1 and in turn no Type-3,4,5 councillor.


If I could sort applicants to topics that are important to me and then the system changes my vote-order to promote 1 from each topic only, that would be nice.

Each topic would itself have less applicants, which makes it easier to choose too.

Councillors could choose in their applications "topics in order of preference".

This tells nothing about the actual skills or distribution (which would evolve into a graduation-system with a number "total skill")
But you could see the preference order.​