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I fully intend to refit all my ships once a more balanced system is in place, however I am not willing to rip out my interior spaces.
Weapon discussion thread
- Thread starter Keptick
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I was joking :p
In my opinion, shields should be high buffer and low regen (especially during combat). Once the ship hp system and armor regeneration (hull that rebuilds itself) is in place I fully expect to see armor as the low buffer high regen type of defense.
Lecic
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With the upcoming health system, and shields being much more expensive now, it might be a good idea to put hull in little crevices.
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Funny, i would see it the other way around (shields lower with high regen and the hull the buffer tank) but i think there will be time enough for debate
I am all for hull being viable as armor, but putting hull in the inside just to get some health count up is not better than the system now...
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What exactly is that HP system about? I mean.. it would be kinda stupid to just have a health bar on ships or something.. I mean.. well, perhaps on a per-system basis, like some sort of hard points (kinda like in Star Wars Empire at War).
Like, vital hard points:
Generator
Core
Optional Hard Points that will heavily hamper the ships abilities:
Weapons
Thrusters
Shield Generators
Sensors
etc
"Once the ship hp system and armor regeneration"
... Armor regenration? Why would that happen? Wouldn't that just turn armor into shield blocks which shields doesn't span the whole ship's surface but just their position?
Like, vital hard points:
Generator
Core
Optional Hard Points that will heavily hamper the ships abilities:
Weapons
Thrusters
Shield Generators
Sensors
etc
"Once the ship hp system and armor regeneration"
... Armor regenration? Why would that happen? Wouldn't that just turn armor into shield blocks which shields doesn't span the whole ship's surface but just their position?
Lecic
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I'm pretty sure how the HP system will work is
- Remembering the blocks on a ship that were destroyed by weapon's fire, so they can be replaced by astrotechno beams.
- Blocks will still be able to be destroyed, but the core will no longer be important, so a ship dies when enough HP is lost.
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MrFURB
Madman of the Girders
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I've gotta say that I'm in love with the overall weapon update concept. Sure, I'd do a few things differently myself (which I'll explain later) as far as details are concerned, but the foundation is strong and the update did what it's supposed to do; bring out a new weapons system.
Beams are the most reliable weapons. They also seem to be a fan favorite... Which has the adverse effect of making everyone want beams to be like they are in their favorite franchise... Which is usually as a long-range capital weapon with cutting/piercing effects. Having something that is both deadly accurate and long-range is out of the question. It's reliable, consistent damage (Working wonders on keeping enemy shield regen out of 100%, unlike other sniper-class weapons with longer refire times) and long range would easily overshadow other long-range weapon options and would also hold up well in short range as weapon use for non-projectile weapons is just as good at short range as it is for long range. It would overshadow other weapons, requiring heavily nerfed damage for other alternatives to remain viable.
Nerfing the damage to levels that are below average would ruin the weapon's roles, both at short range where it's performing pathetically worse than other weapons and at long range where it takes too long to whittle someone down; the only option to completely deny your opponent any combat range by backpedaling and not giving the enemy a chance to counter you. (A misuse case, as there is no counter-play to this and doesn't create a positive game-play experience for both parties, only frustration)
I'd rather beams keep their current niche as a weapon that can't reach too far, but is deadly within it's range due to it being capable of reliably dealing damage, as opposed to cannons/missiles/pulses which can be avoided.
And increase in the beam's tick rate is a good idea to make it's physical effects match up with it's theme and feel, but there's a technical limitation that's in the way.
Currently, any weapon that deals less than one damage per shot is rounded down to zero. This rounding happens before adding the damage to the group. This means that if you have regular beams have 5 ticks of damage a second at 1 damage/block a tick (making the 5 DPS weapon blocks have) you cannot increase that tick rate with slaved cannon blocks or the damage per tick will go below one, get rounded to zero, and now ALL beam/cannon groups deal zero damage per hit... Yeah, it sucks...
There's a couple of ways to get past that, though. We can modify the beam/cannon secondary effect in the block config specifically to lower the slaved cannon's bonus tick rate, which gives up more leeway to modify the rest of the effects but leaves the beam/cannon combination lacking a defined niche. We could also try out a few different mechanics changes to make beam weapons feel a little bit more like they look, or just make them look more like they feel. (Bonus points to people who pay attention to everything going through the bugtracker here)
I've got my own ideas for mechanics-related changes to beams to get them feeling bada** again and I'm aware that Calbiri does as well, but I think I'm more interested in hearing your thoughts on what you'd like to see beam weaponry become, especially the pulse/cannon variants.
My own idea for beams? Have all the base beams tick five times a second (The highest they can get while still dealing more than 0 damage). Make them feel sharp and... Cut-ty. Makes me smile to trace my name onto a planet and call it the Grand Poobah Canyon. The two beam/support combinations that modify fire rate will instead take the missile route, having a different firing mechanism from the rest of the beam variants.
I feel that a beam/cannon combo is an odd thing when you consider that my idea for beams changes them to already be rapid weapons. Simply having a change in tick rate would be boring, niche-less, and technically impossible without reducing the effect of the slaved cannons. Instead, the slaved cannons will modify it's firing behavior to be more 'pulse beam'. Instead of a constant beam dealing constant damage, a beam/cannon system will output a rapid series of pulses before cooling down, outputting a lot of ticks in a short time frame, but still able to deal damage without rounding down to zero due to it's refire time adding more oomph for when it does fire.
Let's do some math on it!
A simple 1/1 beam/cannon combo, that's two blocks so 10 DPS. I'm going to assume that the % of slaved blocks to master blocks affects the refire time and number of damage ticks per pulse, so let's do a 100% secondary example. Starting with some relatively neutral numbers, I'll go with a 5 second refire time, with a pulse taking up the first second of that reload. That's fifty damage per pulse, which we can divide by the number of damage ticks in a pulse... From a mechanical maximum of 50 damage ticks per pulse (woah, fifty damage ticks in a second) to something a little bit more modest such as 25.
Let's look at a 25% cannon secondary now. Assume the smallest possible group; a 4/1 beam/cannon, so 25 DPS. 25% of the 100% combination's refire time is 1.25 seconds, with a mechanical maximum of 12 ticks and a more realistic 6 ticks with 2 (rounded down from 2.6) and 5 damage respectively.
Even at a glance, a weapon with this configuration breathes and bleeds piercing. No, not the effect block. Literally piercing a ship through, although I'm certain that a piercing effect would help. With the damage being applied rapidly in a burst laser instead of over time, this weapon system would be ideal for digging deep holes into an enemy. Know a specific room or block deep in the enemy ship that needs taking out? Dig it out with a quick and accurate burst of contained damage.
That leaves the beam/pulse combo. In my eyes, slow tick rates with the current beam mechanics may work, they just don't feel right at all. That brings back memories to one of the earlier proposed beam/pulse weapon concepts; the charge laser. Essentially it was a charge-up weapon that could dynamically offload a lot of damage based on how long the trigger was held down before firing while taking a lot of power while charging and having it's maximum damage capped by the weapon size. It's a neat concept that plays into a lot of similar themes such as preparing an ambush or arming a super-weapon. The only limitations I can see is that this isn't a simple stat change, it'll require work from Schema to put in.
Now, time for some math!
Let's have the charge laser deal lots of damage, yes? Considering that each point of damage is worth ten energy, let's have it remain as efficient as shielding energy-wise, but not able to charge so high as to instantly get rid of an equivalent number of shields and 1-shot the ship hiding behind it. Shield capacity per-block is 495 last time I checked, so anywhere around 450 damage per beam/pulse block seems alright. Let's go with 450 in this example.
Assuming a 1/1 group, the maximum charge would result in 900 damage. That would charge at 5/block (In accordance with the standard DPS) so ten damage a second is charged. That means that you can charge up damage for a minute and a half. Since energy is calculated at ten times damage, we could have this 1/1 weapon take in 100 energy a second to charge, so 9,000 energy for a fully charged shot. That's a decent chunk of energy. Even more if you consider that holding onto a fully charged shot continues draining energy until you let it go.
This weapon type would accept tertiary effects like candy. A fully charged shot with ion will massively shred shields as well as a hulk missile. Pull/push/stop effects would be able to affect ships larger than you or send smaller ones flying into the sun. Add in punch-through or explosive and watch people's vessels turn into works of modern art.
This is the best solution to the thematic problems facing beam weaponry that I can think of right now, but it's certainly not the easiest as it requires fundamental changes to the way that beam/cannon and beam/pulse combinations work.
Your thoughts?
Beams are the most reliable weapons. They also seem to be a fan favorite... Which has the adverse effect of making everyone want beams to be like they are in their favorite franchise... Which is usually as a long-range capital weapon with cutting/piercing effects. Having something that is both deadly accurate and long-range is out of the question. It's reliable, consistent damage (Working wonders on keeping enemy shield regen out of 100%, unlike other sniper-class weapons with longer refire times) and long range would easily overshadow other long-range weapon options and would also hold up well in short range as weapon use for non-projectile weapons is just as good at short range as it is for long range. It would overshadow other weapons, requiring heavily nerfed damage for other alternatives to remain viable.
Nerfing the damage to levels that are below average would ruin the weapon's roles, both at short range where it's performing pathetically worse than other weapons and at long range where it takes too long to whittle someone down; the only option to completely deny your opponent any combat range by backpedaling and not giving the enemy a chance to counter you. (A misuse case, as there is no counter-play to this and doesn't create a positive game-play experience for both parties, only frustration)
I'd rather beams keep their current niche as a weapon that can't reach too far, but is deadly within it's range due to it being capable of reliably dealing damage, as opposed to cannons/missiles/pulses which can be avoided.
And increase in the beam's tick rate is a good idea to make it's physical effects match up with it's theme and feel, but there's a technical limitation that's in the way.
Currently, any weapon that deals less than one damage per shot is rounded down to zero. This rounding happens before adding the damage to the group. This means that if you have regular beams have 5 ticks of damage a second at 1 damage/block a tick (making the 5 DPS weapon blocks have) you cannot increase that tick rate with slaved cannon blocks or the damage per tick will go below one, get rounded to zero, and now ALL beam/cannon groups deal zero damage per hit... Yeah, it sucks...
There's a couple of ways to get past that, though. We can modify the beam/cannon secondary effect in the block config specifically to lower the slaved cannon's bonus tick rate, which gives up more leeway to modify the rest of the effects but leaves the beam/cannon combination lacking a defined niche. We could also try out a few different mechanics changes to make beam weapons feel a little bit more like they look, or just make them look more like they feel. (Bonus points to people who pay attention to everything going through the bugtracker here)
I've got my own ideas for mechanics-related changes to beams to get them feeling bada** again and I'm aware that Calbiri does as well, but I think I'm more interested in hearing your thoughts on what you'd like to see beam weaponry become, especially the pulse/cannon variants.
My own idea for beams? Have all the base beams tick five times a second (The highest they can get while still dealing more than 0 damage). Make them feel sharp and... Cut-ty. Makes me smile to trace my name onto a planet and call it the Grand Poobah Canyon. The two beam/support combinations that modify fire rate will instead take the missile route, having a different firing mechanism from the rest of the beam variants.
I feel that a beam/cannon combo is an odd thing when you consider that my idea for beams changes them to already be rapid weapons. Simply having a change in tick rate would be boring, niche-less, and technically impossible without reducing the effect of the slaved cannons. Instead, the slaved cannons will modify it's firing behavior to be more 'pulse beam'. Instead of a constant beam dealing constant damage, a beam/cannon system will output a rapid series of pulses before cooling down, outputting a lot of ticks in a short time frame, but still able to deal damage without rounding down to zero due to it's refire time adding more oomph for when it does fire.
Let's do some math on it!
A simple 1/1 beam/cannon combo, that's two blocks so 10 DPS. I'm going to assume that the % of slaved blocks to master blocks affects the refire time and number of damage ticks per pulse, so let's do a 100% secondary example. Starting with some relatively neutral numbers, I'll go with a 5 second refire time, with a pulse taking up the first second of that reload. That's fifty damage per pulse, which we can divide by the number of damage ticks in a pulse... From a mechanical maximum of 50 damage ticks per pulse (woah, fifty damage ticks in a second) to something a little bit more modest such as 25.
Let's look at a 25% cannon secondary now. Assume the smallest possible group; a 4/1 beam/cannon, so 25 DPS. 25% of the 100% combination's refire time is 1.25 seconds, with a mechanical maximum of 12 ticks and a more realistic 6 ticks with 2 (rounded down from 2.6) and 5 damage respectively.
Even at a glance, a weapon with this configuration breathes and bleeds piercing. No, not the effect block. Literally piercing a ship through, although I'm certain that a piercing effect would help. With the damage being applied rapidly in a burst laser instead of over time, this weapon system would be ideal for digging deep holes into an enemy. Know a specific room or block deep in the enemy ship that needs taking out? Dig it out with a quick and accurate burst of contained damage.
That leaves the beam/pulse combo. In my eyes, slow tick rates with the current beam mechanics may work, they just don't feel right at all. That brings back memories to one of the earlier proposed beam/pulse weapon concepts; the charge laser. Essentially it was a charge-up weapon that could dynamically offload a lot of damage based on how long the trigger was held down before firing while taking a lot of power while charging and having it's maximum damage capped by the weapon size. It's a neat concept that plays into a lot of similar themes such as preparing an ambush or arming a super-weapon. The only limitations I can see is that this isn't a simple stat change, it'll require work from Schema to put in.
Now, time for some math!
Let's have the charge laser deal lots of damage, yes? Considering that each point of damage is worth ten energy, let's have it remain as efficient as shielding energy-wise, but not able to charge so high as to instantly get rid of an equivalent number of shields and 1-shot the ship hiding behind it. Shield capacity per-block is 495 last time I checked, so anywhere around 450 damage per beam/pulse block seems alright. Let's go with 450 in this example.
Assuming a 1/1 group, the maximum charge would result in 900 damage. That would charge at 5/block (In accordance with the standard DPS) so ten damage a second is charged. That means that you can charge up damage for a minute and a half. Since energy is calculated at ten times damage, we could have this 1/1 weapon take in 100 energy a second to charge, so 9,000 energy for a fully charged shot. That's a decent chunk of energy. Even more if you consider that holding onto a fully charged shot continues draining energy until you let it go.
This weapon type would accept tertiary effects like candy. A fully charged shot with ion will massively shred shields as well as a hulk missile. Pull/push/stop effects would be able to affect ships larger than you or send smaller ones flying into the sun. Add in punch-through or explosive and watch people's vessels turn into works of modern art.
This is the best solution to the thematic problems facing beam weaponry that I can think of right now, but it's certainly not the easiest as it requires fundamental changes to the way that beam/cannon and beam/pulse combinations work.
Your thoughts?
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So much yes on the faster ticks with the standard beam and I like your idea for the pulse and charge laser as well.
I'm kind of having mixed feelings about the beams as they currently are. On the other hand I love beams. On the other the slow tick kinda kills the feeling of firing a giant deathlaser as well as making my dreams of carving my initials to the enemy ship remain out of reach.
I'm kind of having mixed feelings about the beams as they currently are. On the other hand I love beams. On the other the slow tick kinda kills the feeling of firing a giant deathlaser as well as making my dreams of carving my initials to the enemy ship remain out of reach.
MrFURB
Madman of the Girders
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Yeah. Beam weaponry is currently sound from a balance or technical standpoint, but they are missing the real feeling of beams. Their visual representation and physical impact don't match up very well, so we need to nudge them together without disturbing the overall balance. That nudge is perfect for making them even more unique, and I'm looking forward to their future!
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wow, nice.
I have to say i like your burstfire concept and would love the higher tick rate. Charge laser - no question, awesome.
My50Cents: I don't see much use in missile slaves for cannons and beams (shotgun effect, but tell me if i miss out on an awesome thing.) - replace that with your burstfire mechanic and make Beams have slightly higher default range (600m, long range beams would then at least have higher range than normal cannons) - cannon slaves could then provide higher dps whith lower range and a nice pulse laser effect.
I have to say i like your burstfire concept and would love the higher tick rate. Charge laser - no question, awesome.
My50Cents: I don't see much use in missile slaves for cannons and beams (shotgun effect, but tell me if i miss out on an awesome thing.) - replace that with your burstfire mechanic and make Beams have slightly higher default range (600m, long range beams would then at least have higher range than normal cannons) - cannon slaves could then provide higher dps whith lower range and a nice pulse laser effect.
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Yes, that's pretty much how it's going to work if I can remember discussions with calbiri correctly. The HP is going to be the pool of all the block's hp combined. So all this "useless" esthetic stuff will be useful, as well as hardened hull!
NuclearFun You're right, I had a brain fart. Shields should be the medium buffer and high regen (while not under fire). Meaning that they are better for fighters or hit and run addepts. As for armor it should be the super high buffer and low regen that isn't affected by combat. So it's better for bigger, heavier ships (like yours :p).
Edit: Now that I think about it, my titan's hull alone would offer more than 125 million hull hp
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Lecic
Convicted Lancake Abuser
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MrFURB I agree with the majority of your post, but I really think beams should be able to have their range increased. They're absolutely pitiful right now, range-wise. Not to the point where they are the most OP weapon in the game, but so that they are usable beyond smaller craft.
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MrFURB +1
It's like you took the content of my brain (and I assume many other people) and turned it into phrases. That's EXACTLY how I'd like beams to work. Apart from a 200m-300m range increase, if a damage decrease is needed to counter all the advantages is would confer than so be it.
It's like you took the content of my brain (and I assume many other people) and turned it into phrases. That's EXACTLY how I'd like beams to work. Apart from a 200m-300m range increase, if a damage decrease is needed to counter all the advantages is would confer than so be it.
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Hm, the HP system doesn't sound so bad, I especially love that it makes repairing ships way easier. :D And I suppose the HP thing makes sense, too, like, structual integritiy and whatnot.
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That system would also make missiles and shotguns to be a valid choice to rip bigger ships hulls appart.
(most likey after further balancing, tough)
Also, i would find it nice to have the option to buy only the core of a ship or if necessary with just enough blocks to be still alive and have it complete later, with reparing mechanics for a lower overal costs.
That would be also very nice for war game servers, where not only resources but also construction time are important stratetic elements.
(most likey after further balancing, tough)
Also, i would find it nice to have the option to buy only the core of a ship or if necessary with just enough blocks to be still alive and have it complete later, with reparing mechanics for a lower overal costs.
That would be also very nice for war game servers, where not only resources but also construction time are important stratetic elements.
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Does anybody actually use lasers as slaves, because they're the only slave system that doesn't increase the dps of the ship. While I can understand wanting longer range (and bullet speed), but if they can't deal sufficient damage to destroy a ship then it really isn't worth it (I understand that shields will be nerfed, but I am taking that into account).
More importantly, how is gigantism going to be fought this time around? With everything being linear tiny fighter weapons will never scratch a capital ship and capital ships have a natural advantage over smaller ships to begin with.
More importantly, how is gigantism going to be fought this time around? With everything being linear tiny fighter weapons will never scratch a capital ship and capital ships have a natural advantage over smaller ships to begin with.
Lecic
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Lasers don't increase the DPS of a weapon when slaved? I'm 100% certain that's wrong, and if it isn't, it's a bug. A 100 block laser being split into a 50/50 LRLaser still has the same DPS. It might not look like it, but if you do the math the DPS that comes out should be the same, unless you lose a few points to rounding errors.
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Turrets can't aim for scrap at small ships and there's absolutely now way that the big ship will manage to maneuver into shooting position. They basically can't kill each other (which is completely fine tbh).
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I tried using the Anti-matter cannon and the damage stayed the same. How would the damage on the laser look different? The only difference is the laser should shoot a longer distance. I'll test that after writing this message.
keptick If the fighters are very determined to try and take down the capital ship and if it is properly piloted the capital ship will be able to eventually maneuver into position to start taking out the fighters. It does this by moving forward at max speed and eventually turning itself (while doing its best to maintain its velocity) to face the fighters. In practice though the two ships will usually ignore each other.
[edit]: Just tested it with 5 (combined) laser master and 5 laser slave against a 5 (combined) laser master with no slave and they both said 25 dmg/tick while the laser with a slave had much greater range.
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Lecic
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I'm pretty sure all weapons with the same number of master and slave blocks, regardless of weapon type or ratio, have the same DPS.
It's impossible for fighters to take down a capital ship. Even at 1% shield regen the fighter doesn't have enough DPS to do it. They can, however, carry out strikes against turrets, especially now with their inaccuracy.
Also, that trick against fighters only works if the fighter pilot is an idiot.
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