The Odium Pact "acta deos numquam mortalia fallunt"

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    CyberTao

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    You also don't get Honour by fighting with No Honor.
    Unless you are referring to Purely Japaneses Honour in the sense they would die on the battlefield before they left an unfinished battle, There is more to Honour then just war.

    Honour Means different things to different People, and to me its a combinations of how Respectable you are and how much do I trust your words. :u The Meaning is not the same as how it is Read by the way.
     
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    A man who fights with Honour fights with a handicap, a permanent disadvantage to those who don't. sure you could take pride in that, your fights would be harder and victory would be more of an accomplishment. but people rarely remember the hows and whys of victory only that it is victory. hell in this crap shack of a community people spin a draw or even a loss into a victory so the terms of which matter not.

    In my opinion absolute victory at any cost is the only condition, anything else is a compromise.
     
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    "Guns are for cowards"
    ~medival jappanese thought process when introduced to guns

    I agree with this statement but regardless I have used guns in games and like them In general but I still hold strong to this but I'm not above using guns for combat unfortunately for me if I ever go into combat I will have to use guns wish I could have lived in medieval jappan right now
     
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    "a delicacy of honor which is sensitive to shame".
     
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    CyberTao

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    what server do you play on, i need target practice :p
    You are a special kind of... Special... aren't you?
    The Majority of the Pact cant even play Starmade since 0.14, not that there's really any server that they would be interested in methinks -w-
     
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    FlyingDebris

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    GeneralBLT, fashionably late to the party, has arrived. :P
     
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    I've been reading this and finally got a chance to write on something not a mobile device, so I do have a few thoughts.

    First off, about what Obi said about honor and battle, fact is, there's way to gain honor that doesn't involve combat. And also, combat itself and even victory isn't an honor guarantee. Goerge W Bush went to war with Iraq and won it, but he wound up getting tarred and feathered over it.

    And while I do agree with Ridik's approach, I believe it up to a certain point, and some of the current espionage endeavors actually cross that line. I don't think spy work and sabotage itself isn't bad, I don't mind it when there's a way to do it within the game itself, and it's success is more dependent on skill rather than exploiting. Allow me to explain.

    When I played Planetside, I usually was in an infiltrator suit, which allows it's user to go invisible, but I would have a faint outline which would appear depending on how much I moved. I used this suit often to get into bases and hack them to disrupt the enemy, stole vehicles(once stole thier version of a mech, man was that fun!), and caused general havok. But ontop of the glowing problem, the enemy had which was a close ranged implant that allowed a person to see me when I was cloaked, and I had a limited stash and weak armor. Starcraft II has Overseers which can gunk up buildings and send in changlings to look like troops, but were unarmed and usually used to detect cloaked stuff. C&C Red Alert 2 has spies which could sneak into a base and cause havoc, but you had to watch out because Fido had no problem using him as a doggie biscuit. All had balance in the game and enhanced it.

    The problem with Starmade is though, there isn't any real way to deal with spies rather than making things harder on factions by having to implement screening measures. I don't like the direction of this and I have my concerns about how much this faction update can solve them. Even if you can restrict block access to certain groups, you wind up needing to create a more restricted environment to do so, blocking access to resources to key people and playing a trust game. Plus, you have that whole mutiny fiasco which went down a few months ago, and if it is true, the RA getting tampered with attempts to destroy the faction from the inside.

    My worries is this game might be going the way of Magic: The Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh's One-Turn-Kill Decks. Basically, MTG's legacy mode and quite a few Yu-Gi-Oh decks are focused on the concept of killing your opponent before he gets a turn, pretty much turning the game into a glorified coin-flip wins. Granted, they aren't surefire methods, but it really goes against the concept of trying to compete against your opponent. Rather in Star-Made's case, this spy problem risks turning the game into a glorified Mafia game. Mafia is a forum based game where you try to find the Mafia members hidden with the townsfolk. Each day you kill off a person and the goal is either to kill of the scum or survive till the end. It turns into alot of politics, and ugh...

    I understand that you're going to have politics when you have factions, clans or whatnot, but I really don't want to see Starmade get turned into Scummade with sabotage that can't be controlled or balancing it with making things harder on us. I can't see requiring people to chat over voice being the balance, since if there's someone you never heard the voice of before, how would you know the guy's scum or not? Where's the fun in being worried about assigning your members ships and whatnot and having to make sure they are going to come back with it? What's exciting about trying to pick out that one guy and maybe hope he won't go to give your recipes to someone? I know things like this happen in IRL, but do we not play games to get away from this? Even in the real world, there's tactics that are never used before they are though of as unacceptable, we call em WMDs.

    Perhaps should we consider ways to curtail it, or maybe look into ways to allow someone to sneak around like in Planetside and perform some intel runs or maybe toy around with the enemy's base, but have have to catch em and it's up to the players if they can get the object or catch the inflitrator?
     

    CyberTao

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    The Problem is that, is this is a Sandbox :u
    There is no "way to play" really, and any form of Game implemented Anti-spy system would actually encourage spies I find :u Add in the fact that the spy network sometimes extends outside of the Game (Such as PMs and such). So there really isnt any way to direct it.

    Factions who assign Ships to player do so on a Rank system which I assume involves Trust and the like. One of the Major issues there is most factions seem to hand out Ranks like Candy sometimes, all for simple things like "confirmed kills".

    The only real way to combat spy networks is Order within a factions :u Blocking off resources and such to people may seem bad at first, but if done properly allows a faction to regulate and keep track of what it actually has.
     

    generalBLT13

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    You are a special kind of... Special... aren't you?
    The Majority of the Pact cant even play Starmade since 0.14, not that there's really any server that they would be interested in methinks -w-
    not my problem they can't play.
     
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    ...And while I do agree with Ridik's approach, I believe it up to a certain point, and some of the current espionage endeavors actually cross that line. I don't think spy work and sabotage itself isn't bad, I don't mind it when there's a way to do it within the game itself, and it's success is more dependent on skill rather than exploiting. Allow me to explain....

    The problem with Starmade is though, there isn't any real way to deal with spies rather than making things harder on factions by having to implement screening measures. I don't like the direction of this and I have my concerns about how much this faction update can solve them. Even if you can restrict block access to certain groups, you wind up needing to create a more restricted environment to do so, blocking access to resources to key people and playing a trust game. Plus, you have that whole mutiny fiasco which went down a few months ago, and if it is true, the RA getting tampered with attempts to destroy the faction from the inside.
    Factions who assign Ships to player do so on a Rank system which I assume involves Trust and the like. One of the Major issues there is most factions seem to hand out Ranks like Candy sometimes, all for simple things like "confirmed kills"..
    There is a way to deal with spies, a very easy and real way and there is a reason I spy on some factions and not others. It is all about how well those factions are run, Spying and espionage is only "Over Powered" if the faction is run Badly. we have all seen films like donnie brasco, or even the recent Avatar film where the guy sent under cover "goes native" likes the new lifestyle more then his old and says fuck you to the mission.


    But this is all assuming that my spies are all "plants" people who were originally euro-corp members who were then planted into target enemy factions, people who had an original mission to begin with. But there is also a second kind of spy, "the defector" the established member who for what ever reason dislikes his faction so much he decides to rebel against them, Me being me and having the reputation in the community that I do I am the first person they come to. this again is a symptom of a badly run faction.


    However, I always say leadership isn't about power, but rather a position of responsibility, If a "Planted" spy goes native, and likes his faction more than mine, well I submit to defeat that faction is better then mine, it is good for the community and should remain. As a leadership figure I have responsibility to my members current and past, hell I have a small amount of responsibility to people who are my friends within the community, in order to keep them as friends expectations need to be maintained.

    Think of the faction euro-corp like an alliance and its members like factions, if one faction in the alliance has positive standings to an external faction or alliance, those standings need to be escalated to the whole, or risk losing those members(factions) over all.

    However the reverse is also true, if a member from a badly run faction wants to defect wants to come to me so I can help destroy, derail or otherwise subvert their faction/leadership structure, I am under obligation to work with and help that person, or lose them as an ally or even acquire them as an enemy. if they contribute to the whole and work with and help me, I am equally obliged to do the same with them, anything else would a form of bad leadership and it would equate me to the current leadership structure in which they are revolting against.

    My point is, if specific factions in the community weren't so awfully run I wouldn't be able to send my spies into them because I would lose them, equally I wouldn't have established long term membership including officers defecting to my cause (or their own)

    At the very Least, my actions might encourage factions to be run better, going for quality over quantity of members, trying to find members that fit rather then lying to acquire as many members as they can. I'd say how other people run their factions is their own business, but it is exactly my business, I will be there to exploit, prod and divide any faction deemed weak and unable.


    "It is essential to seek out enemy agents who have come to conduct espionage against you and to bribe them to serve you. Give them instructions and care for them. Thus doubled agents are recruited and used." ~Sun Tzu

    simply because people seem to like when I have a follow up quote that compliments my argument.
     
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    Jaaskinal

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    However the reverse is also true, if a member from a badly run faction wants to defect wants to come to me so I can help destroy, derail or otherwise subvert their faction/leadership structure, I am under obligation to work with and help that person, or lose them as an ally or even acquire them as an enemy. if they contribute to the whole and work with and help me, I am equally obliged to do the same with them, anything else would a form of bad leadership and it would equate me to the current leadership structure in which they are revolting against.
    You might not have wanted to say this, as it would be very bad if someone were to say, get into another faction, just to contact you to destroy it.
     
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    You might not have wanted to say this, as it would be very bad if someone were to say, get into another faction, just to contact you to destroy it.
    obviously each situation is done in a play by play, I't would be counter productive to have a faction based on intelligence and information and ignore all that at the behest of some randomer who wants to wreck shit up. There is a lot I am not saying for a lot of reasons but we vet every target and every potential enemy and ally the same.
     

    Jaaskinal

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    I'm just stupid enough to believe that I somewhat understand it.
     
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    In Lazarus and DFN there's a growing feeling of delirium
    Conditioned to respond to all the threats
    In the rhetorical speeches of the Lazarus,
    Mister Ridik said, 'We will bury you'
    They don't subscribe to his point of view
    It'd be such an ignorant thing to do
    If the Concord love their children too

    How can I save my little boy
    From Ridik Ulass's deadly spy?
    He has a monopoly on common sense
    On his side of the political fence
    We share the same biology
    Regardless of ideology
    Believe me when I say to you
    I hope the Concord love their children too

    There is no historical precedent to put
    Words in the mouth of their president
    There's no such thing as a winnable war
    It's a lie we don't believe anymore
    Mister Nature says 'We will protect you'
    I don't subscribe to this point of view
    Believe me when I say to you
    I hope the Concord love their children too
    We share the same biology
    Regardless of ideology
    What might save us, me and you
    Is if the Concord love their children too
     
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