Read by Schine The Nomadic Revolution [Motherships/Capital Ships as Homes]

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    Blaza612

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    I'm Ex-military so I curse like a sailor but I do run into minors on the servers. Just something to be aware of.

    The ship/station above is an actual ship. I have been specifically waiting for the rails update because, it meant the end of the docking enhancer system and associated bounding box. That means you now have the capability of docking a much larger entity to something much smaller. Another example is the orbital defense platform in my above post's spoiler. The turret is built around the ship; just as a ship can now be built around a station. We are looking at a capability for some really abstract designs and with a little creativity you can have your mother-ship, build a small "anchor station" as I call it and dock to it in such a way that the station appears to be inside the larger craft. That station can house whatever shipyard facilities factories undeathinators, etc. you want as long as your docking bay can fit it.

    Does that make better sense?
    That still isn't a mobile station, that's a station that you deconstruct and rebuild somewhere else. :p
    [DOUBLEPOST=1447914323,1447914283][/DOUBLEPOST]
    You probably should take a gander at the forum rules. There's really no need to punctuate everything you say with an expletive when you can use language that doesn't irk certain people..not that it bugs me.
    Putting "fucking" into the sentence is a joke at him telling me not to use profanity. ;p
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    That still isn't a mobile station, that's a station that you deconstruct and rebuild somewhere else. :p
    Have you ever played the original Starcraft? This is the equivalent of a Terran Command Center. Just like in starcraft you can "add on" components. But instead of the com-sat array and the nuclear silo, you get shop, ship yard, stargate, undeathinator, etc. My new Command system will have only 300 mass worth of station blocks in comparison to the craft you just saw.
     

    Blaza612

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    Have you ever played the original Starcraft? This is the equivalent of a Terran Command Center. Just like in starcraft you can "add on" components. But instead of the com-sat array and the nuclear silo, you get shop, ship yard, stargate, undeathinator, etc. My new Command system will have only 300 mass worth of station blocks in comparison to the craft you just saw.
    My confusion exists with the fact that the only way to actually get station blocks onto ships is either via glitches or through configs

    And yes, I have played Starcraft, and I understand it's magical mobileness, but for a nomad that's ultimately detrimental to the play-style.
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    Why do you feel it is detrimental? The fact that you have to briefly pause to reconfigure your setup is realism without extreme difficulty. To be honest, we're actually getting off easy based on the fact that we have advanced build options and can modify the size of the build area.

    Look at it this way; If you go on a camping trip in your RV, do you stop to take a leak while you're still behind the wheel? Hopefully the answer is "no" and you pull over and handle your business. Even an aircraft carrier - the largest class of vessel ever constructed - moors to the pier when it's time to load new aircraft and munitions, or reassign personnel. But I digress; I can assure you that I've taken plenty of leaks that last longer than it takes me to anchor/mobilize my Command System.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1447915716,1447915410][/DOUBLEPOST]Edit: If you line up your Docking collars, decks and rails properly, you can easily create a seamless transition from ship to station. Leave a 1 meter gap on all sides of the station if adding something big like a shipyard then use plex doors or blast shields controlled by logic to fill in the gaps when you dock. Slave the doors to an activation module and they will close up the gaps when you dock and open back up to give you clearance when you undock and need to leave.
     
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    Blaza612

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    Why do you feel it is detrimental? The fact that you have to briefly pause to reconfigure your setup is realism without extreme difficulty. To be honest, we're actually getting off easy based on the fact that we have advanced build options can modify the size of the build area.

    Look at it this way; If you go on a camping trip in your RV, do you stop to take a leak while you're still behind the wheel? Hopefully trhe answer is "no" and you pull over and handle your business. Even an aircraft carrier - the largest class of vessel ever constructed - moors to the pier when it's time to load new aircraft and munitions, or reassign personnel. But I digress; I can assure you that I've taken plenty of leaks that last longer than it takes me to anchor/mobilize my Command System.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1447915716,1447915410][/DOUBLEPOST]Edit: If you line up your Docking collars, decks and rails properly, you can easily create a seamless transition from ship to station. Leave a 1 meter gap on all sides of the station if adding something big like a shipyard then use plex doors or blast shields controlled by logic to fill in the gaps when you dock. Slave the doors to an activation module and they will close up the gaps when you dock and open back up to give you clearance when you undock and need to leave.
    It's significantly different. Nomads want to have the play-style of not ever needing a station, which includes building one temporarily. We want to be able to completely live off of a ship, which has everything we need, and we don't need to stop for an hour to do our stuff. Forcing us to stop or anchor or something is forcing our play-style into the station centric play-style as either way we still require stations.

    Look at it this way; If you go on a camping trip in your RV, do you stop to take a leak while you're still behind the wheel? Hopefully trhe answer is "no" and you pull over and handle your business. Even an aircraft carrier - the largest class of vessel ever constructed - moors to the pier when it's time to load new aircraft and munitions, or reassign personnel. But I digress; I can assure you that I've taken plenty of leaks that last longer than it takes me to anchor/mobilize my Command System.
    We're not going on a camping trip in an RV, we're in a giant spaceship in space. Why exactly do I need to stop if I want to take a piss? :p

    Edit: If you line up your Docking collars, decks and rails properly, you can easily create a seamless transition from ship to station. Leave a 1 meter gap on all sides of the station if adding something big like a shipyard then use plex doors or blast shields controlled by logic to fill in the gaps when you dock. Slave the doors to an activation module and they will close up the gaps when you dock and open back up to give you clearance when you undock and need to leave.
    Mkay, I think I'm missing something pretty significant. Please explain to me how you get station stuff onto ship in first place, if you don't place the station first... ?
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    The station blocks don't go on the ship. They go on the station that the capital/mother-ship is docked on/around. If you want, you can then arrange the ship/station dock so that they fit nearly seamlessly with each other and fill in the gaps in the way I described. How expansive you want to make that (internal) station depends on your patience, imagination and your understanding of rails and logic systems. I find that using the copy/paste template system helps for a quick setup.

    As far as play style; I think you and I have discussed this topic past the point of conventional reasoning. It's obvious that you're now playing devil's advocate by claiming to want to be 100% fully mobile at all times; which is strange since you won't be playing the game 100% of the time (as addictive as the game is, even I can't do that...)

    In any case, the time it takes to do any station related functions is minimal. Have you ever built with a shipyard before? When I can build a 100 meter long, 3000+ mass transport ship faster than most ships can charge a jump drive or manufacture 1000+ units of an item in one production cycle using the STOCK build size configuration for factory enhancers, I find it hard to complain about what is at most, a 2-5 minute pit stop.

    Your mileage may vary.
     
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    Blaza612

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    The station blocks don't go on the ship. They go on the station that the capital/mother-ship is docked on/around. I you want, you can then arrange the ship/station dock so that they fit nearly seamlessly with each other and fill in the gaps in the way I described. How expansive you want to make that (internal) station depends on your patience, imagination and your understanding of rails and logic systems. I find that using the copy/paste template system helps for a quick setup.

    As far as play style; I think you and I have discussed this topic past the point of conventional reasoning. It's obvious that you're now playing devil's advocate by claiming to want to be 100% fully mobile at all times; which is strange since you won't be playing the game 100% of the time (as addictive as the game is, even I can't do that...)

    In any case, the time it takes to do any station related functions is minimal. Have you ever built with a shipyard before? When I can build a 100 meter long, 3000+ mass transport ship faster than most ships can charge a jump drive or manufacture 1000+ units of an item in one production cycle using the STOCK build size configuration for factory enhancers, I find it hard to complain about what is at most, a 2-5 minute pit stop.

    Your mileage may vary.
    The reason for not wanting these stops, again, is because it forces us back into the station centric play-style which is exactly what we don't want. Balancing won't become a problem because Capitals will already have their disadvantages from the start, which have been explained previously. And with that in mind, why shouldn't we be forced to stop every now and then, rather than be mobile 100% of the time.

    And I guess I am playing devil's advocate, but I'm not abusing the play-style call, I'm just using it since that is a key point of this whole suggestion. :p
     

    Dr. Whammy

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    The reason for not wanting these stops, again, is because it forces us back into the station centric play-style which is exactly what we don't want. Balancing won't become a problem because Capitals will already have their disadvantages from the start, which have been explained previously. And with that in mind, why shouldn't we be forced to stop every now and then, rather than be mobile 100% of the time.

    And I guess I am playing devil's advocate, but I'm not abusing the play-style call, I'm just using it since that is a key point of this whole suggestion. :p
    No hard feelings.

    Keep in mind; I'm not actually arguing against your suggestion. The fact is, I find a lot of players greatly underestimate what can be done in this game. I wanted to be sure that you and everyone else knows exactly what we're dealing with before you ask the development team to focus their efforts on something that (arguably) already exists; especially when they have so many other goodies in store for us...
    Fauna anyone?
     
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    Motherships have no place in the future of the game. The current "everyone lives in a single HB in a single claimed system" garbage is going to go away, and since motherships are essentially a mobile version of that, they will be worthless.
    Not so. this cncept would allow RP players get to have the "Star Trek" vibe that lots of peope go for.
    in addition, mechanics players can have the satisfaction of making mammoth ships survivable homes.
     

    Lecic

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    Not so. this cncept would allow RP players get to have the "Star Trek" vibe that lots of peope go for.
    in addition, mechanics players can have the satisfaction of making mammoth ships survivable homes.
    My point was that the current meta of "one base, one system" for factions is going to go away at some point. You're going to need to fight over territory and the resources that come with it. There's no room for mobile bases in a game where you might need dozens of bases.
     
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    My point was that the current meta of "one base, one system" for factions is going to go away at some point. You're going to need to fight over territory and the resources that come with it. There's no room for mobile bases in a game where you might need dozens of bases.
    I mean, you could still claim Claim regions of space (theoretically) and have a huge space empire, it just means that the bases are mobile.
     

    Lecic

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    I mean, you could still claim Claim regions of space (theoretically) and have a huge space empire, it just means that the bases are mobile.
    You need a station to claim space.
     
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    In this current build, yes you do. but if this idea gets implememted, i would like to see something like,

    Your ship is in a sector. No enemy ships or neutral ships are in the sector. you control this sector.
    or
    Your ship is in a sector. A pirate vessel/station is also in this sector. sector control disputed, or challenged.
     
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    What would happen if you moved your station and claimed space that was already claimed?
     
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    I for one, was incredibly excited when the idea of capital ships started being tossed around by Schine in the Q&A. I think that factories and shipyards should be able to be built on ships, with some caveats. Here are some of my assorted thoughts and reasonings:

    1) Drone ships with real factories: Being able to construct a rack from an interior shipyard, move it in to place, and fire off drones without having to go back and forth to a station. On a smaller scale, the ability to build fighters, bombers, or just scout craft that are more “disposable”. I started my space-sim career with the first Wing Commanders, then Master of Orion and homeworld. Having these systems on a ship has always offered a spot for a tactical, mobile shipyard to reinforce main lines.


    2) Keeping them from being OP: I am 100% on board with limits to these kinds of systems. Since shipyards and factories were built off of station code, a “mothership” (for lack of better terms, ANY ship with station systems) would have to have a “stationary” mode, where it basically becomes a station before any of those systems could be used. This should also come with a steep recharge time, of at LEAST 5-10 minutes (reload time based on the number of “station” blocks like factories/shipyards you have installed, like a jump drive would), before the ship’s reactors could heat back up to “active” and allow it to move again. This forces you to think about where to set up for a battle at, all while not having to completely re-code things like shipyards or undeathinators to have to work with a moving object (a slight tweak to reset the spawn location to the new spot without having to physically activate it would be the only real code change, something similar might exist for the core dock on the shipyard, but not nearly as big as having a moving ship with an undeathinator). No parking in claimed territory unless you’re allied with them. You wanna park on the very edge of an enemy system and reinforce? Go for it. You wanna use that drone factory right next to their homebase? Get outta here.


    3) They don’t get ALL of the buffs of a space station: I don’t think they should EVER get homebase protection. The fact that you can stash it in an unclaimed void space system is more than enough protection for when you log off. I fully support that they don’t get any bonuses that a normal ship could get, since the bonus is the systems themselves. They also should not be able to claim territory. Your presence may be a claim on that spot, but only a space station or planetary base can provide the access to mining bonuses.


    4) Increased weight costs for station systems: I’m all about this. These systems are massively intricate (at least in an RP sense) and require quite a bit of dedication to them. Instead of having to code separate power costs, just increasing the weight by a good margin will make them take a tactical back seat while not impacting station code or logic. You want a car factory in a ship? Be ready to dedicate quite a bit of weight to all those construction arms and spare parts bins. Carrier ships, ESPECIALLY those that can manufacture frigates, aren’t going to be fast, at all, ever. This also encourages tactical diversity, where your carrier isn’t going to also be loaded with destroyer guns, and if it is a jack of all trades, it will be a master of none.


    5) The same goes for simple factory ships: Factory enhancers should be the biggest in terms of weight. A small ore-processing plant in a salvage ship is one thing, able to deliver capsules to the trade guild after mining, or spend some of that power that’s not being used while traveling to the next asteroid. But a full-blown processing facility that can take raw asteroids and turn them in to thousands of advanced hull every cycle is quite an undertaking, and the weight should be evident.


    6) Capital ship movement: This is the big one. I wouldn’t suggest any changes to how thrusters work with a capital/mothership, since a.) thrust is already going to change soon, no need to further complicate, and b.) as discussed, with weight being the main drawback, thrust compensation would have to be tremendous, which brings with it power consumption.


    7) HOWEVER, the real question in this category is long-distance movement: This I am on the fence about. The first option, super jump drives or warp drives or timey-wimey-spacebending drives SOUND cool, and LOOK cool, and are a part of many big-ship-space operas, BUT, does the capital ship REALLY need more advantages, or would another disadvantage be prevalent here. I’m talking the SAME jump drive mechanics as other ships. We can already have more than 1 drive, so if you want to jump halfway across the galaxy you can still do it with a dozen drives that all have 1 block on them. Sure, they take forever to charge, but that’s determined by you, and how you build your ship. This all goes back to tactical balance. You want your giant supercarrier factory to be able to jump as if it were a nubile young fighter? That jump drive (and power source) would have to be equally massive. However, if you are a tactical carrier meant to show up, bunker down, and reinforce the lines in a game of attrition, then jump drives would be charged pre-engagement, used, and left alone while battle commenced. This would also make them vulnerable to jump inhibitors, but balanced due to the (probably) pretty good size of jump drive.


    8) Oh the RP: Once crew are in, having REAL capital ships, with crewed fighters, fleet support, and all manner of sweet interior spaces dedicated to crew quarters, barracks, training simulators, weapons bays, engineering, the list goes on. I love this game for the RP aspect, and am glad it gets to shine. But it is true that in many genres, the big, scary, moving factory base is both a sight to behold and be feared, and I think it should be part of the game. Yeah, this point is basically "I want it because of the rule of cool"


    9) You still have to build it, AKA, there’s always a bigger shipyard: You STILL need some kind of home base that has the capability to PRODUCE one of these suckers if you want one. Not to mention the resource cost. You probably want that homebase protection while you work out the finer bits. Nuff said there.


    10) Smaller ships have fun too: A frigate or cruiser could still make good use of the nomad lifestyle. Maybe you’re a trader and buy up crystals cheap at one shop, then park, make some computers, and travel to the next shop to sell for a profit, all the while buying what you need to make your ship bigger, better, and more badass. Maybe you have a small 10x10x10 construction bay for making planetary probes, or stealth ships to spy on your enemy while having a close spot to respawn at if you get caught. Mercenaries, covert operatives on the other side of the galaxy even medium sized minelayers or (if they’re ever fixed) warhead launchers that can replenish a dedicated supply with a very small integrated shipyard would be something that is tactically appealing, without too much in the area of added weight, especially if it still relied on buying or reloading component parts (blocks) instead of integrating another layer of factory onboard. Retreat from battle, reload your torpedoes, and by the time you’re done making and docking them you should be all charged up and ready to become a ship again.


    11) Bonus thoughts: discoverable on the system map, just like a pirate, trade station, planet, or shop. For all intents and purposes you’re big enough to be seen on the galaxy map, even as an unidentified station, and can be found by anyone who’s really looking for ya. Yeah, that might need some tweaking, but still. Being as big as a trade station means you show up like one when ya park.


    So there, ten (plus a bonus) disorganized thoughts on capital ships, and why I love the idea but know that it needs to be implemented properly. The advantages of being able to move around with station parts are primarily tactical and RP based, so should come with no other advantages. To keep everyone from making every ship this way, they should have distinct DISADVANTAGES that keep the idea of stations, planetary bases, and ships WITHOUT these systems a viable and desirable option. Without them, the idea that every ship becomes a capital will spread, if there’s no downfalls to doing so.
     
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    Darkkon

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    I gotta say one thing about this....just about every ship in Star Trek was a starbase that could move. Replicators are overpowered.

    Anyway on a more serious note, I rather like the idea of a 'mother ship' having to remain stationary to engage the more station-like systems. Going off of past sci-fi universes, the more massive ships usually stayed still during fights so its not inconceivable for it to be a power requirement lore wise. Not counting the enterprise because they just made stuff up. So yeah, I definitely agree that they should have a stationary mode. As for them showing up on the map when they park, it make more sense for them to show up like that all the time simply because of their size. I mean, it vanishes from radar because it moved an inch? Maybe if it had cloaking and radar jamming but otherwise...

    Overall, i love the idea and really want to see it in game.
     
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    Lecic

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    undeathinators to have to work with a moving object
    Undeathinators actually do work on moving objects, ever since the "respawn on your ship after you log out" thing was implemented.
     
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    Undeathinators actually do work on moving objects, ever since the "respawn on your ship after you log out" thing was implemented.
    Oh yeah, I forgot about that lol. That came just before I took a bit of a break. Good catch.
     

    nightrune

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    I for one, was incredibly excited when the idea of capital ships started being tossed around by Schine in the Q&A. I think that factories and shipyards should be able to be built on ships, with some caveats. Here are some of my assorted thoughts and reasonings:

    1) Drone ships with real factories:
    This is one of the things I would love about it.

    2) Keeping them from being OP:
    Yup good with this as well

    3) They don’t get ALL of the buffs of a space station:
    I think homebase is appropriate, but I do think there are problems that need to be solved. Possibly that its only invulnerable in your faction's claimed space, but maybe any non-claimed space, but if you bring it into an enemies faction territory then you lose that.

    4) Increased weight costs for station systems:
    I think increased weight is a wierd meta thing, and I wouldn't support that.

    5) The same goes for simple factory ships:
    I think the you have to plant the mothership to activate station blocks this helps. The other thing going for full on stations and planets would be passive resource generation. Something you wouldn't get with a mothership.

    7) HOWEVER, the real question in this category is long-distance movement:
    This does have some cool appeal but I think we should keep the same jump system.

    8) Oh the RP:
    Yes role play would be awesome with this.

    10) Smaller ships have fun too:
    Agreed

    11) Bonus thoughts:
    You should absolutely be able to find it from crazy distances
     
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