Svens Practical Logic Tutorials

[Megacrafter127]

yo, Sven. did you manage to make a single pulse monostable yet?

I'm developing a support tool for my Boom Lance weapon and need a monostable circuit that only produces 1 output signal at a time no matter how many inputs pulses are sent

Easy…

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

yo, Sven. did you manage to make a single pulse monostable yet?

I'm developing a support tool for my Boom Lance weapon and need a monostable circuit that only produces 1 output signal at a time no matter how many inputs pulses are sent

If I understand you correctly, try this:

High Pulse limiter -> Or side of SvenCell™
SvenCell™ -> Delay -> OR <- NOT from High Pulse Limiter or invert the high pulse coming in
From that OR -> Delay Chain -> AND side of SvenCell™

This is just the pulse lengthener I showed off in episode 3 with a little extra circuit to stop extra pulses from being sent into the delay chain. You might not need that extra bit though as you may get away with just the pulse lengthener but I'd have to see the intended ship/circuit to know for sure. Either way it's only two extra logic blocks.

Here's what a my normal high pulse lengthener looks like:

You can also take the output from the delay as your first part of the delay chain, that could save you one extra block to reach your desired delay (I'll probably do that for the official Pulse Lengthener Sheet)

This also allows me to show off the icon I intend to display variable length delay chains, let me know what you guys think

 

[takethispie]

Please take note that the R input on the AND has to be negated in your circuit.(which effectively turns the circuit into a NOR-RS cell, since both of these do the same

aaaah it change everything ! ^^

You cannot apply all real world mechanics to the in game counterpart. real circuits require power, have resistance. These things do not exists in Starmade. When I build circuits I think of them as if I am writing a script or a program as I have more background in that area then electrical engineering.

it was just pure logic, not electronic, but It wasn't clearly stated that you need to invert the AND input so I thought it was just a AND gate and an OR gate

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

it was just pure logic, not electronic, but It wasn't clearly stated that you need to invert the AND input so I thought it was just a AND gate and an OR gate

The inputs on the graphic were labeled "high pulse" and "low pulse" Perhaps I'll need a better graphical representation to make it clearer in the future?

 

[takethispie]

yes pulse is more of an event/action (low pulse -> going from 1 to 0, etc...) than an actual state
so I think "low active" and "high active" sounds better
excepts that, your graphical representation is really good ^^

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

yes pulse is more of an event/action (low pulse -> going from 1 to 0, etc...) than an actual state
so I think "low active" and "high active" sounds better
excepts that, your graphical representation is really good ^^

Most inputs will be a pulse, I have to come up with a good visual representation of the inputs and outputs. Of course not all circuits have a clear output. SvenCells™ are nice because in most cases it doesn't mater what block you take outputs from and RS_Nor and RS_NAnd are nice because they off every possible output, High and Low both when Set and Reset. I cannot use activators as a blanket input because sometimes you need to use an activator in a circuit that is never meant to be an input from anything other than the existing circuit. Let me Photoshop some ideas together.
[DOUBLEPOST=1424904107,1424901456][/DOUBLEPOST]This is what I am thinking for pulsed inputs:

Not only does it have the color change indicating state but the arrow itself is going up or down depending on if it's a high pulse or a low pulse. I think this should be clear enough. I can also do the same for pulsed outputs.

 

[takethispie]

really good, it looks like a pulse from a waveform

 

[Xavori]

sadly RS ANDOR gate aren't memory cell , it's a starmade bug ...

It's not a bug. It's doing exactly what you'd expect it to do based on how StarMade batch process logic rather than sequentially processes each block.

Basically, because StarMade doesn't have electrical flow simulation, you get all circuits that could be turned high or low during each half second tick doing so. In the case of SvenCell™'s, if the OR goes high it sets the AND to high during the same half second update. Then, the AND keeps the OR high which in turn keeps the AND high. The only way to break that is to get another input into the AND that isn't high. Hence, the circuit is stable and can be used as a memory cell.

The only shortcoming of the cell is that the input that turns the cell must be kept high when the cell is low or else the AND part of the memory won't turn on. Not that difficult, but something you need to be aware of.

 

[takethispie]

It's not a bug. It's doing exactly what you'd expect it to do based on how StarMade batch process logic rather than sequentially processes each block.

Basically, because StarMade doesn't have electrical flow simulation, you get all circuits that could be turned high or low during each half second tick doing so. In the case of SvenCell™'s, if the OR goes high it sets the AND to high during the same half second update. Then, the AND keeps the OR high which in turn keeps the AND high. The only way to break that is to get another input into the AND that isn't high. Hence, the circuit is stable and can be used as a memory cell.

The only shortcoming of the cell is that the input that turns the cell must be kept high when the cell is low or else the AND part of the memory won't turn on. Not that difficult, but something you need to be aware of.

you didn't read the previous messages \( -_-)/
again it's not electricity it's logic ....and you should never ever EVER make something oscillate this way

 

[Xavori]

yo, Sven. did you manage to make a single pulse monostable yet?

I'm developing a support tool for my Boom Lance weapon and need a monostable circuit that only produces 1 output signal at a time no matter how many inputs pulses are sent

That's just the basic Activator - NOT - DELAY - AND resetting pulse limiter that everyone uses.

See...

The wiring is just Activator into the NOT and the AND. The NOT into the DELAY. The DELAY into the AND, and the AND back into the activator. If you need longer than a single half second pulse, just wire more delays in. Your pulse length will always match the number of dealys in your resetting pulse limiter.

As you can see in my screenshot. I wired a lone activator, and high pulse and low pulse limiter, and even a clock into the activator of the pulse limiter. It doesn't even matter that some inputs are always high and some normally low. Any high pulse into the activator will send a single half second pulse out, and even if the incoming high pulse is greater than a half second, the pulse limiter will uh, limit it (the name is kinda a giveaway).
[DOUBLEPOST=1424914552,1424914142][/DOUBLEPOST]

you didn't read the previous messages \( -_-)/
again it's not electricity it's logic ....and you should never ever EVER make something oscillate this way

It's not really oscillating tho, and again, it's working exactly the way it's meant to.

StarMade batch processes logic blocks. Every single logic block that can be processed during an update will be processed to its completion. DELAY blocks act as separators between update ticks.

SvenCell™'s work not because of a bug, but because they have nothing telling the StarMade server not to process them during the same tick.

So while I get that true formal logic would dictate the cells are bugs, StarMade logic isn't true formal logic. It's StarMade logic, and it works exactly as expected by the rules it was meant to use.

(and yes, there are time, like when I built my counters, that I wish the game did process in true logic fashion, but those are few and far between)

 

[Xavori]

takethispie

I just came up with what I think is the perfect example of why StarMade logic and circuit logic are not the same thing.

I accidentally misclicked a NOT block in a circuit I was working on and gave it a second input. You obviously can't do that in real world circuits. I thought about it for a moment, remembered our discussion, and made this:

That circuit, in that state, simply cannot exist in a game without StarMade's logic rules and processing. And yet, there it is happy as can be in all its logic-violating glory.

The high OR into the NOT should be inverted. And when I first clicked that OR's input, that's exactly what it was. Then I turned the other OR on which initially did nothing to the output because why would it? It's just another high into into a NOT to get inverted into a low. All's well.

And then you turn that second OR off and see one of the huge zomg wtf bbq things that StarMade has to have in order to batch process logic in half second ticks: a low pulse....which does not exist in real world circuits. When you turn off a signal in a real circuit, you get nothing. Empty pipe or wire or whatever. But StarMade can't just do that since it doesn't immediately update connecting blocks.

Instead, StarMade circuits send instructions "Turn On" or "Turn Off" to blocks they are connected to, ie. high pulse/low pulse. So going back to my impossible circuit. When the second OR turned off, it didn't simply stop carrying a signal. It sent a signal to the NOT to turn off as well which the NOT inverts into turn on and does even though that means it is no longer inverting the first OR.

So, like the need for DELAY blocks to protect inputs from being processed together (or don't so you can make AND/OR SvenCell memory), you also have to think of logic in StarMade as being discrete signals being sent between blocks rather than as a continuous signal the turns off and on based on the gates in the circuit.

p.s. Don't ever actually connect multiple inputs into a single NOT. It'd be way too easy to screw up your circuit if you do.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Exactly, low isn't the absence of power as it is in Minecraft, it is the circuit sending a low state and any blocks that can receive it. I am doing my best to not refer to Starmade logic as "off" and "on". Some circuits "off" state can be high or low and the same with the "on" state. The biggest hurdle when learning Starmade logic after Redstone is getting over the idea of off and on in terms of taking away power.

 

[Bench]

It's probably been mentioned but the NOT in StarMade is treated like an inverting activation module. As Sven pointed out it's not about off and on, in the case of the activation module and NOT block it's the last input it received that influenced it. Think like high and low packets being sent around.

 

[takethispie]

Xavori I don't have time to write a full answer ( and I'm too much pissed off too), I will make a full answer when I will have time

When you turn off a signal in a real circuit, you get nothing. Empty pipe or wire or whatever.

no you don't get nothing, you still get a signal wich is different with the technology used (with TTL low level is 0V - 0.8V)

 

[Xavori]

Xavori I don't have time to write a full answer ( and I'm too much pissed off too), I will make a full answer when I will have time

no you don't get nothing, you still get a signal wich is different with the technology used (with TTL low level is 0V - 0.8V)

Not sure why you're pissed off. We are just having a discussion about a game. We are not deciding the fate of the world or trying to cure cancer or anything of true importance...

However, no playing silly definition games. You did know what I meant.

A real world circuit that say, has a light attached to it and a switch attached to it works by allowing or stopping the flow of current to that light from the perspective of the user.

In StarMade, that same circuit works by sending a turn on signal to the light, and then later a turn off signal.

 

[takethispie]

as I said a multiple times I'm not talking about electricity or electronic, I'm talking about pure logic...

a NOT gate was missing on the so that's why I thought it wasn't a memory cell but you are STILL trying to prove me wrong when I said it was a misunderstanding , the SvenCell is just a RS NOR latch with a good design sven thought about wich reduce the gate number.

So while I get that true formal logic would dictate the cells are bugs, StarMade logic isn't true formal logic. It's StarMade logic, and it works exactly as expected by the rules it was meant to use.

there is no formal logic, it's only logic and if "starmade logic" don't follow those rules it's not logic anymore
and with your example you're actually showing that logic is broken (even if only one gate should be able to connect to a NOT gate)
because of the actual system...

 

[Gristle]

Talking to takethispie about this subject is like trying to talk to a person about chess rules, but they keep bringing up checkers rules.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Episode 10:


Demo Ship:
http://starmadedock.net/content/practical-logic-episode-10-demo-ship.2313/

 

[takethispie]

Talking to takethispie about this subject is like trying to talk to a person about chess rules, but they keep bringing up checkers rules.

hummm no xD

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Okay this back and forth needs to stop. I do not want my logic thread locked because you guys are fighting. If you want to continue please take it to private messages.