StarMade Ship Systems 2.0

[Drakkart]

I think you are misunderstanding. All turrets export damage to another entity, but self powered turrets are the problem because they have no drain on the main ship, allowing you to fire your shield guns and your block damage guns at the same time with no problems.

With a big enough power system i can fire a ION Snipercannon switch to a Explosive Sniper cannon within the cooldown of both weapons and fire them at the same time...

Tertiary effects do not apply an "extra power debuff" to weapons, so I have no idea what you're talking about here. I am referring to the fact that block destruction weapons require a lot of outputs, and that this increases power consumption heavily at larger scales. By putting your block damage in turrets, you can have each turret function as an individual output, cutting down power consumption heavily.

Ok thanks for clarification... Well if you do this you are wasting a lot of firepower potential by specialising a weapon to just destroy blocks on a big area... Look if you would take the same power generated by the turret and put it to use by a snipe cannon or some other good systems with a single output you'd get higher dps.
But the real point i'd like to make here is that you are pointing at the turret being self powered for weapon system design related issue. sure all this stuff interacts of some sort. You are not cheating yourself around multiple output weapons by either putting them on turrets or utilizing lots of turrets. Turrets are a trade off because of the mentioned added weight also being more drastic because of the not so optimal hull to system ratio on a turret. But again these are issues which the turret being self powered is not really the source of the issue if you ask me... yes it makes the problem possible but let's say all the systems in place are starmade alpha issues and sorry to put it that way i kinda doubt schine either knows to properly balance such stuff or even tries to already because they are focusing on features.

A turret that is big enough to support both ion and block damage is an inefficiently designed turret

An arguable statement. Well i prefer high dps turrets i rather not specialize them on just one scenario and i guess every builder has their own view on that topic. And agin people also taking pride in their work might state that efficiency of a battle ship does not only rely on the efficiency of it's turrets.

The power needed to regenerate shields is very minimal and again, not a problem for the turret, as it is just using mothership shields and is fully self sustaining, so the extra drain on mothership power does not effect it.

A player operated ship cannot effectively fire both ion and block damage at the same time unless you are using high alpha weapons. A person simply cannot fire two DPS weapons simultaneously like AI can.

Compare two ships. Ship A and Ship B have identical stats, except Ship B has exchanged a small amount of its thrust in order to have self powered turrets without having a higher block count. Ship A has separate ion and block damage DPS weapons. The pilot can only fire one of these at a time, and could not fire both at the same time if he could physically do it because the main ship does not have enough power to do so.
Compare this to Ship B, which has its block damage DPS weapons on turrets. This means it can fire both ion and block damage simultaneously, but the load on the main ship is the same, because the turrets are self powered. This means that Ship B effectively has, let's say, 1.5x the DPS of Ship A.
It should become immediately obvious who will win this fight, despite all else being equal.

In the given scenario, the ship with the more specialized weapons would win for you made clear same block count/mass which means the two operating guns of the player driven ship are way more effective than the ship that has to carry around additional turrets has to have more rail mass enhancers and because of bearing more hull blocks than the other ship will have a weaker shield regeneration than the other ship sure it's turrets might fire simultaneously but the other ship only need the ion weapon as long as the enemy ship has it's shields and then entirely can focus on wrecking where as the ship with the turrets might be firing all of it's weapons at once but at the same time has weaker guns. Also the paragraph about lower count of thruster blocks might give the other ship an advantage if it can manage to stay on distance and utilize it's sniper weapons while cruising around it's enemy...

Actually i am just taking this counterstance to point out "it depends on the ships man" The described thing i would consider a balance issue. not saing the balance is right, just saying it might get tweaked later in the games development if the advantage should turn out that drastic as you described. i personally never went through the hassle of building two identical same mass ships to just figure out which option would be more advantageous for i still see turrets as a necessity to overcome the slow turning rate of capital ships and giving them the ability to fire at multiple angles comared to the speed and agility of smaller crafts which are able to utilize their main guns on any target for they can quickly reaim on anything and main guns are always more effective than turrets just because of the not additional weight added and better system to hull ratio and such = more system blocks compared to a docked/turreted solution. the point is capitals have no choice they either have turrets doing the aiming for them or they are in deep shit. you can not aim at stuff in a 2km long battleship except it is absolutely stationary... and even then it begs the question if you really want to invest so many systems into a main gun weapon on the ship itself if you could rather invest these blocks into defense and keep your turrets alive longer and letting them do the fighting.

It is not like there is a choice.
taking the homeworld system it is ok for a frigate to have just a single weapon like an ion beam to take down capitals for they are fast enough to bring them down before the cap ship can turn around to aim at them... it is not ok for a battle cruiser to just have frontal main guns, it better has everything as turret for it hardly ever will come around in the right atack angle... same in starmade.

 

[MrFURB]

With a big enough power system i can fire a ION Snipercannon switch to a Explosive Sniper cannon within the cooldown of both weapons and fire them at the same time...



Ok thanks for clarification... Well if you do this you are wasting a lot of firepower potential by specialising a weapon to just destroy blocks on a big area... Look if you would take the same power generated by the turret and put it to use by a snipe cannon or some other good systems with a single output you'd get higher dps.
But the real point i'd like to make here is that you are pointing at the turret being self powered for weapon system design related issue. sure all this stuff interacts of some sort. You are not cheating yourself around multiple output weapons by either putting them on turrets or utilizing lots of turrets. Turrets are a trade off because of the mentioned added weight also being more drastic because of the not so optimal hull to system ratio on a turret. But again these are issues which the turret being self powered is not really the source of the issue if you ask me... yes it makes the problem possible but let's say all the systems in place are starmade alpha issues and sorry to put it that way i kinda doubt schine either knows to properly balance such stuff or even tries to already because they are focusing on features.



An arguable statement. Well i prefer high dps turrets i rather not specialize them on just one scenario and i guess every builder has their own view on that topic. And agin people also taking pride in their work might state that efficiency of a battle ship does not only rely on the efficiency of it's turrets.



In the given scenario, the ship with the more specialized weapons would win for you made clear same block count/mass which means the two operating guns of the player driven ship are way more effective than the ship that has to carry around additional turrets has to have more rail mass enhancers and because of bearing more hull blocks than the other ship will have a weaker shield regeneration than the other ship sure it's turrets might fire simultaneously but the other ship only need the ion weapon as long as the enemy ship has it's shields and then entirely can focus on wrecking where as the ship with the turrets might be firing all of it's weapons at once but at the same time has weaker guns. Also the paragraph about lower count of thruster blocks might give the other ship an advantage if it can manage to stay on distance and utilize it's sniper weapons while cruising around it's enemy...

Actually i am just taking this counterstance to point out "it depends on the ships man" The described thing i would consider a balance issue. not saing the balance is right, just saying it might get tweaked later in the games development if the advantage should turn out that drastic as you described. i personally never went through the hassle of building two identical same mass ships to just figure out which option would be more advantageous for i still see turrets as a necessity to overcome the slow turning rate of capital ships and giving them the ability to fire at multiple angles comared to the speed and agility of smaller crafts which are able to utilize their main guns on any target for they can quickly reaim on anything and main guns are always more effective than turrets just because of the not additional weight added and better system to hull ratio and such = more system blocks compared to a docked/turreted solution. the point is capitals have no choice they either have turrets doing the aiming for them or they are in deep shit. you can not aim at stuff in a 2km long battleship except it is absolutely stationary... and even then it begs the question if you really want to invest so many systems into a main gun weapon on the ship itself if you could rather invest these blocks into defense and keep your turrets alive longer and letting them do the fighting.

It is not like there is a choice.
taking the homeworld system it is ok for a frigate to have just a single weapon like an ion beam to take down capitals for they are fast enough to bring them down before the cap ship can turn around to aim at them... it is not ok for a battle cruiser to just have frontal main guns, it better has everything as turret for it hardly ever will come around in the right atack angle... same in starmade.

I think you're just going to have to take my word for it; self-powered entities break parts of the game's power-based mechanics. Docked guns and docked hulls with their own 2m e/s supply are simply superior to having the same amount of power in bulky auxiliaries on the ship's primary entity. There are plenty of PvPers running around in ships take take good advantage of this, including some of my own older stuff hauling around massively oversized base defense turrets.

 

[tonefiend]

Why not do different tiered engines and fuels, the engines being harder to make the higher the tier and the fuels having different properties and in burn time and power output.... this could also make it so you have to go to certain parts of the galaxy to obtain some of these materials to make these items... you could make it so you have to build fuel tanks as well

 

[Drakkart]

I think you're just going to have to take my word for it; self-powered entities break parts of the game's power-based mechanics. Docked guns and docked hulls with their own 2m e/s supply are simply superior to having the same amount of power in bulky auxiliaries on the ship's primary entity. There are plenty of PvPers running around in ships take take good advantage of this, including some of my own older stuff hauling around massively oversized base defense turrets.

You are arguing with the old power system in the new power system proposal thread, stating that self powered turrets are the issue?

Why not do different tiered engines and fuels, the engines being harder to make the higher the tier and the fuels having different properties and in burn time and power output.... this could also make it so you have to go to certain parts of the galaxy to obtain some of these materials to make these items... you could make it so you have to build fuel tanks as well

because tiering does not fit the game, and your suggestion does not help with the new powersystem discussion, and the having to leave your nests to obtain stuff is a different issue.

 

[MrFURB]

You are arguing with the old power system in the new power system proposal thread, stating that self powered turrets are the issue?

True, yeah. My only complaints about self powered docked entities in the new power system is dependent on how reactor/stabilizer distance scales.

 

[Drakkart]

True, yeah. My only complaints about self powered docked entities in the new power system is dependent on how reactor/stabilizer distance scales.

and i share these concerns... but i was just like "SRSLY!?" i would love to see the docking system handleled a bit differently as well esspecially when it comes to where the ship ends and the station begins having extendable gangways and such. but that is not the problem of the new powersystem ; )

 

[Lecic]

With a big enough power system i can fire a ION Snipercannon switch to a Explosive Sniper cannon within the cooldown of both weapons and fire them at the same time...

That's nice, but those aren't DPS weapons, now are they? Try and fire two cannon/cannon or beam/cannon weapons at the same time.

Ok thanks for clarification... Well if you do this you are wasting a lot of firepower potential by specialising a weapon to just destroy blocks on a big area... Look if you would take the same power generated by the turret and put it to use by a snipe cannon or some other good systems with a single output you'd get higher dps.

What? Weapons need power either way. You could just make the turret a sniper turret if you wanted a sniper turret. And single output weapons have worse SHP DPS than multi output weapons due to overpenetration and the way penetration damage scales.

But the real point i'd like to make here is that you are pointing at the turret being self powered for weapon system design related issue. sure all this stuff interacts of some sort. You are not cheating yourself around multiple output weapons by either putting them on turrets or utilizing lots of turrets. Turrets are a trade off because of the mentioned added weight also being more drastic because of the not so optimal hull to system ratio on a turret. But again these are issues which the turret being self powered is not really the source of the issue if you ask me... yes it makes the problem possible but let's say all the systems in place are starmade alpha issues and sorry to put it that way i kinda doubt schine either knows to properly balance such stuff or even tries to already because they are focusing on features.

No, you ARE cheating yourself around multi-output power penalties with turrets. How are you denying this? 12 single output turrets is going to cost less power than a 12 output main gun.

Hull to system ratio is only a problem on extremely small turrets.

The issue is either with self powered turrets or with weapons.

In the given scenario, the ship with the more specialized weapons would win for you made clear same block count/mass which means the two operating guns of the player driven ship are way more effective than the ship that has to carry around additional turrets has to have more rail mass enhancers and because of bearing more hull blocks than the other ship will have a weaker shield regeneration than the other ship sure it's turrets might fire simultaneously but the other ship only need the ion weapon as long as the enemy ship has it's shields and then entirely can focus on wrecking where as the ship with the turrets might be firing all of it's weapons at once but at the same time has weaker guns. Also the paragraph about lower count of thruster blocks might give the other ship an advantage if it can manage to stay on distance and utilize it's sniper weapons while cruising around it's enemy...

Both ships HAVE THE SAME WEAPONS. One just has the block DPS ones mounted in turrets, while the other has them mounted on the main ship. The ship with the weapons in turrets WILL WIN because it WILL take down the shields first and do more damage. This is not a difficult concept. Being able to kill something because you could make a ship that can outrange it does not make it balanced! You can outrange and kill literally any ship in the game except another max range ship. That doesn't mean that the turret boat is not an inherently better choice with the same range weapons than a ship that doesn't have them.

 

[Drakkart]

That's nice, but those aren't DPS weapons, now are they? Try and fire two cannon/cannon or beam/cannon weapons at the same time.



What? Weapons need power either way. You could just make the turret a sniper turret if you wanted a sniper turret. And single output weapons have worse SHP DPS than multi output weapons due to overpenetration and the way penetration damage scales.



No, you ARE cheating yourself around multi-output power penalties with turrets. How are you denying this? 12 single output turrets is going to cost less power than a 12 output main gun.

Hull to system ratio is only a problem on extremely small turrets.

The issue is either with self powered turrets or with weapons.



Both ships HAVE THE SAME WEAPONS. One just has the block DPS ones mounted in turrets, while the other has them mounted on the main ship. The ship with the weapons in turrets WILL WIN because it WILL take down the shields first and do more damage. This is not a difficult concept. Being able to kill something because you could make a ship that can outrange it does not make it balanced! You can outrange and kill literally any ship in the game except another max range ship. That doesn't mean that the turret boat is not an inherently better choice with the same range weapons than a ship that doesn't have them.

If both ships would have the same weapons the one constructing the weapons of the ship haveing everything inside would have done a poor job, not making his bigger as he would not have to support these turrets and thus could put more firepower in his ship.
Have you built two mass identical ships which focus on these weapon aspects while giving them some solid shield and recharge?
I consider this special case constructed for i never saw multiple output weapons actually being used because of their energy/damage tradeoff.
The moment the enemy shields are breached is the moment the battle is decided in most cases for the over penetration or not systems die pretty quickly even without such specialized multiple output weaponry. Anyway you do not like the outcome of this special case, how about you make a suggestion about how to rebalance this... Saying turrets must not be self powered - well cutting down the levels to master the game won't create depth.

 

[GnomeKing]

12 single output turrets is going to cost less power than a 12 output main gun.

12 turrets requires:
-space to mount and have sufficient fire arcs,
-hull/armour/shields for each barrel and turret base,
-protection for the mount point on the main ship in case turret gets shot off,
-mass-enhancers, etc.

Unless the turrets are very small/basic, all this will need corresponding weight reduction or additional thrusters on the main ship (any therefore some extra power to move the main ship around, even if the attached turret weapons can fire on their weapons using their own power systems)

Each turret also has to be mounted/activated, which is an additional build task, and the AI must be selected as 'selected' vs 'all' targets, limiting some combat options > if is very hard to mount 12 turrets so they will all fire at the same time at the same target. Not having some turrets set to 'any' makes fighting swarms/pirates etc much less effective.

On top of all of this the player reduces main ship weapons > the extreme alpha damage of much bigger main guns is usually necessary to make any impact on powerful/OP PvP type ships (eg 500,000 regen/20 mil caps :/). And fire power can be heavily reduced once your own shields drop to 50% and you start to loose your turrets. In contrast main-ship guns only start to loose effectiveness when main ship shields are 0%, and when armour is also being heavily damaged. (if a weapon/weapon combination is powerful enough to drop your shields to 50%, it is very likely to be powerful enough to wreck individual turrets next)
Finally all the mass in turrets (in our comparison of equal mass ships) is not in the main ship, reducing its over all HP and armour perhaps significantly. This means that the 12-turret ship might have much less durability in the end stages of a fight-to-death, even if both ships are heavily damaged.

So: there are definitely payoffs to consider with using many turrets/docked guns vs multi-output main guns.

It is indeed much harder to land shots on target at ranges over say 1000m as a player, where as AI guns can get hits at all ranges (eventually).
At close range say <500, player aimed weapons are far more effective, eg by aiming through holes in external hull, spreading damage more effectively, or punching down the whole long axis of a ship .

A 12 barrel main gun ship might be much simpler to construct and maintian, cheaper and with less varied resources, and quite probably with better thrust and/or shields/armour when compared to the same mass 12-turret ship.

The overall trade-offs between this hypothetical '12 turret vs 12 barrel main gun' in overall game-play, are more complex than just the basic power required to fire the weapons.

 

[Alphajim]

fuels

Nope.

 

[Lecic]

If both ships would have the same weapons the one constructing the weapons of the ship haveing everything inside would have done a poor job, not making his bigger as he would not have to support these turrets and thus could put more firepower in his ship.

Why would the ship with the built in weapons have more firepower? It doesn't have enough power generation or block count to do so.

12 turrets requires:
-space to mount and have sufficient fire arcs,
-hull/armour/shields for each barrel and turret base,
-protection for the mount point on the main ship in case turret gets shot off,
-mass-enhancers, etc.

-orbital turrets require no space to mount and have full spherical firing arcs
-shields are unnecessary for turrets, as no turret is going to be able to mount enought shields to withstand more than half a second or so of fire from whatever ship is being fought anyway
-protection for mount points is hilariously easy, just clip a bunch of doors to docking points and you can easily make any turret dock invulnerable
-mass enhancers need minuscule amounts of power and block count. Each one raises the mass cap by 50 and takes 50 e/s (that's 1 e/s/mass, and most turrets aren't more than a few hundred or thousand at maximum)

Each turret also has to be mounted/activated, which is an additional build task, and the AI must be selected as 'selected' vs 'all' targets, limiting some combat options > if is very hard to mount 12 turrets so they will all fire at the same time at the same target. Not having some turrets set to 'any' makes fighting swarms/pirates etc much less effective.

Oh no, I need to take 3 seconds to turn my first turret AI to whichever mode I prefer. At which point every one of those turrets I spawn in (I need to spawn in 11 more) will already have it pre-set for me. And I only need to do this once because now every time I spawn the ship in all the turrets are already set to which mode I want.

On top of all of this the player reduces main ship weapons > the extreme alpha damage of much bigger main guns is usually necessary to make any impact on powerful/OP PvP type ships (eg 500,000 regen/20 mil caps :/). And fire power can be heavily reduced once your own shields drop to 50% and you start to loose your turrets. In contrast main-ship guns only start to loose effectiveness when main ship shields are 0%, and when armour is also being heavily damaged. (if a weapon/weapon combination is powerful enough to drop your shields to 50%, it is very likely to be powerful enough to wreck individual turrets next)

Turrets are protected until 25% shields, not 50%. Also, turret based weapons and fixed weapons have the exact same damage per block. If I have 12 5000 module turrets, they're going to perform exactly the same as a 12 output 60,000 module fixed gun, except they're also going to cost less power because they won't have 210% power consumption from the multiple output power debuff.

Finally all the mass in turrets (in our comparison of equal mass ships) is not in the main ship, reducing its over all HP and armour perhaps significantly. This means that the 12-turret ship might have much less durability in the end stages of a fight-to-death, even if both ships are heavily damaged.

Yes, but the turrets are going to be able to continue fighting even when the main ship is down to 52% structure and has non-stop power outages, because they are self powered and completely unaffected by what's happening to the main ship as long as there is still a meager amount of power to keep the base mass enhancers running (and even then the barrels will still have full traverse speed). If the mass enhancers for the turret are on a small self powered docked generator, you won't even need to worry about that.

It is indeed much harder to land shots on target at ranges over say 1000m as a player, where as AI guns can get hits at all ranges (eventually).
At close range say <500, player aimed weapons are far more effective, eg by aiming through holes in external hull, spreading damage more effectively, or punching down the whole long axis of a ship .

Nearly all fights I have participated in with ships over 50k mass have been at ranges well over 1000m, many of them stretching beyond 10,000m. Precision aiming on a target's ship is exclusively a medium/small ship affair.

 

[Physisistjasonk55]

Simply change the power output and stabilization amounts based off of volume allowing for hollow structures this will reduce block count and increase the depth of the game.

 

[Shaker]

I think the issue here, is some people cant build turrets and some exploit the hell out of it. thus everyone should get nerfed.

Turrets get balanced with mass enhancers which need power and use up block count.
AI accuracy is also another factor, aswell as ship mass.
The larger/slower a ship is, the more turrets it will require.
Turn rate and enhancer effects could be used to further balance, i havent checked the block config for them but they could be modified.
Another idea is making bobbyAI cost power to run

My biggest worry, with that much lost dps power, shields will out scale damage output.
But if reactors produce more power than the current sticks, the lost docked reactors wont matter. Risk a bigger reactor/bigger target for more turrets/weapons

 

[33Cav]

...The ship with the weapons in turrets WILL WIN...

If you are going to make things up at least make them believable. It DOES NOT MATTER if a ship has weapons in its turrets or weapons on the main ship.

• The weapons used for each ship SHOULD NOT be optimized in the same way. Doing so introduces massive bias in the result.
  
• The ship with turrets will actually LOSE to an experienced pilot as once it loses shield sharing for its turrets its goodbye turrets and goodbye firepower.
• Properly constructed ships have more than shields, so your entire argument is invalid as you are relying on shields as your only defense. When SHP was introduced armour became usefull and is even OP against missile weapons if you know what you are doing. With the introduction of RHP it becomes EVEN HARDER to disable a ship because you cant just fire at any point on the ship and expect to be hitting something vital.
• Your scenario only deals with many outputs on main ship vs single outputs on turrets. This comparison is inherently flawed because you have not considered the much more likely scenario of a ship with many outputs on each of its many turrets. Let's not forget that you cannot stack turrets on top of each other, you must have your turrets on a finite perimeter of the ship. This means that there is limited space for turrets on a ship, and thus finite firepower that can be contained in them. Ships have higher potential for damage than any turret because the power requirements for large turrets still come from the main ship (as the power requirements are such that only power aux can supply them for any length of time - still valid for non power aux as the ships power capacity is used instead of the regen from power aux). This does not mean that the entire power requirements for a turret exist on the main ship. Limited power generation can still be achieved on turrets (especially the turret base in a welled turret) to partially offset the weapon power cost.
  
• Damaging turrets dont turn fast NOW. Turrets designed to engage large ships are by necessity large and slow.
• Why should my turrets cost more power arbitrarily just because I plug them into my main ship's wall sockets? It's hypocritical to even suggest that.

The truth is that a balanced ship is a jack of all trades and master of none. While a specialized ship is very good at its specialization, in every case better than the balanced ship. First and foremost the most important factor in combat is piloting skill. But a close second is the quality of ship construction. Introducing or changing mechanics to favour poor piloting and bad ship construction is the worst possible thing that could be done.

 

[Lecic]

The ship with turrets will actually LOSE to an experienced pilot as once it loses shield sharing for its turrets its goodbye turrets and goodbye firepower.

Yeah, no. Combat between large ships happens almost entirely beyond the ranges where you can effectively hit specific spots on an enemy ship on purpose. Most turret heavy ships only start to eject their turrets after having taken heavy system damage already.

Your scenario only deals with many outputs on main ship vs single outputs on turrets. This comparison is inherently flawed because you have not considered the much more likely scenario of a ship with many outputs on each of its many turrets.

Nope. AI can fire all weapons simultaneously, meaning you can entirely ignore the multi output debuff even if you do decide to go with bigger turrets with multiple outputs.

you must have your turrets on a finite perimeter of the ship.

I can make rings, lines, squares, whatever of floating self powered turrets all around my ship if I want. There is no practical limit on the number of turrets I can put on a ship before running out of thrust to even move the thing.

Ships have higher potential for damage than any turret because the power requirements for large turrets still come from the main ship (as the power requirements are such that only power aux can supply them for any length of time - still valid for non power aux as the ships power capacity is used instead of the regen from power aux)

What? Self powered turrets have absolutely no need for aux, ever. Self powered turrets have zero power draw on the main ship besides the extremely minimal cost of mass enhancers.

Why should my turrets cost more power arbitrarily just because I plug them into my main ship's wall sockets? It's hypocritical to even suggest that

What? I am not suggesting turrets cost any more power than normal weapons. I'm simply saying they should only draw from the main reactor.

 

[33Cav]

Combat between large ships happens almost entirely beyond the ranges where you can effectively hit specific spots on an enemy ship on purpose. Most turret heavy ships only start to eject their turrets after having taken heavy system damage already.

Even if combat did occur at 7-10km (the approximate distance an ACTUAL large ship becomes a single point target) there is an extremely high chance that a) AI will miss the target enough times to be laughable. b) a player pilot WILL close the distance to give themselves more options. c) AI will preferentially target turrets over the main ship more often than not. d) weapons fire typically hits the outside of a ship first, where the person has docked all their turrets. If weapons are split into many many groups or multiple weapons are used the chances of hitting a turret instead of the main ship drastically increase

AI can fire all weapons simultaneously, meaning you can entirely ignore the multi output debuff

So you want to remove AI completely then? Since AI main ships can fire all weapons at the same time as well and will have the same effect.

There is no practical limit on the number of turrets I can put on a ship before running out of thrust to even move the thing.

Clearly and obviously wrong. You cannot have turrets docked around turrets that can actually hit something through the outer turret they are trying to shoot through. Even if those turrets could fire the thrust on a ship there is a limit on thrust if you want to get technical. The thrust added per block must exceed the mass of 1 additional thruster block in order to be useful.
Mass of a thruster block is 0.1
T = 0.75 * (N * 5.5)0.87 is the thrust formula
2.87539/x^0.13 is the derivative of the thrust formula
lim_(x->166500000000) 2.87539/x^0.13 = 0.0999799 < 0.1 satisfies the initial condition.
So you are wrong, again. Mathematically proven this time. Who cares if the number is large, don't make unfounded and incorrect claims or you will get called out on them.

Self powered turrets have absolutely no need for aux, ever. Self powered turrets have zero power draw on the main ship besides the extremely minimal cost of mass enhancers.

You clearly didn't read my post fully. At no point do I claim that self sufficient turrets use main ship aux. My point (which I offer again, because you didn't read it) was that ACTUAL large turrets cannot be self powered and will use either main ship aux or main ship capacity as a powersource. "Self-powered" is reserved for a niche range between ACTUAL large turrets and anti-missile turrets (though anti-missile turrets can power themselves quite nicely).

 

[StormWing0]

On a side note people have come up with ways of making the AI fire weapons in a staggered setup after the initial firing of all weapons. It involves multiple computers and tuning the cooldown on each copy of the weapon to pull off though.

 

[Malacodor]

Simply change the power output and stabilization amounts based off of volume allowing for hollow structures this will reduce block count and increase the depth of the game.

It isn't possible to properly calculate the volume of a hollow ship with openings - unless you don't care about exploitability.

 

[Az14el]

You clearly didn't read my post fully. At no point do I claim that self sufficient turrets use main ship aux. My point (which I offer again, because you didn't read it) was that ACTUAL large turrets cannot be self powered and will use either main ship aux or main ship capacity as a powersource. "Self-powered" is reserved for a niche range between ACTUAL large turrets and anti-missile turrets (though anti-missile turrets can power themselves quite nicely)

What is your definition of "ACTUAL large turrets", i use spts up to 20k mass that fire their weapons off of less power blocks than would be possible than if draining solely from the main ship, strictly speaking every single rail part attached to a ship that is past the 2m e/s soft cap can use its own power better than the main ships power because they all have their own individual soft cap. This isn't a "niche" it's the most liberally & commonly used combat feature on every high performance ship that utilises more tham 2m e/s period. In practise, 200-300 mass spent on powering a 2m e/s demanding docked weapon/turret is pretty common & achievable on any ship shape if you just try (in the extreme case this can be done with less than 100 mass), since without that it would take a minimum of 980 mass of aux power, in what universe would it be a niche and not strictly the meta?

 

[kulbolen]

this discussion is amusing
[doublepost=1497200920,1497197545][/doublepost]

So you are wrong, again. Mathematically proven this time.

i believe you ma have misunderstood him... he seems to be saying (correctly) that there is no real limit UNTIL you reach the thrust limit, which while possible, is highly impractical.

"There is no practical limit on the number of turrets I can put on a ship before running out of thrust to even move the thing."