Starmade just got 0wned...

    Criss

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    Ok... Instead of reducing the size or adding new logical blocks ... what about "adding new functions-interactions" with other blocks? For example:
    - Display Block: Allow change the text color using the same system like rails. You know, color light + logic block + display block, instead of enter the css/html color.
    - Delay Block: Press R to config the "cicle time", instead of have the 0,5 sec by default, why not enter the desired time you want?
    - Sensor Block: We right now, we have no way to know the number of items inside a storage box, why not press R and enter an item number to detect if it is located next to one?

    With only that 3 things, we could greatly reduce our creations.
    Wouldn't it take the same amount of space to change the color of a display block text? Either you copy the color from a display or you copy from a light block. Still a minimum 3 blocks needed.

    I can't speak for how the system works, but I feel like only increases in time should be made for delays. I can't think of any reason to reduce a delay to less than half a second. Lights and other things wouldn't update quick enough. If this has anything to do with toggling systems, I imagine that could be a problem.

    I agree to the last one but logic overall isn't a priority right now. A lot of these features have no impact on gameplay, which we really need to focus on.
     
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    I know Criss changes in logic stuff is not a priority, but hey, its only a suggestion :). I suggest some things that can bring more gameplay, you know, more options bring more posibilities to player to play whit it.
     
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    well, well, well... look at this, another Minecraft in space pops out of nowhere and looks to be much farther ahead in development.


    ...meanwhile, we sit and gnash our teeth debating how to re-invent the wheel of power/reactors... again... Schine, you're looking to a lot of us like you're going nowhere fast. Stop dinking around, and move different directions.
    No kidding just seen this yesterday. If it has a minimal amount of bugs I'll be playing it over this.
    --
    I found out it uses unity as a game engine. Won't play it at all.
     
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    The graphics leave something to be desired but it does look amazing. Ill give it a go.but from what i understand it doesnt have a build mode?

    But those doors. I would kill for those doors in starmade. These on/off blast doors are lame but those Skywanderer doors *drools*
     

    Az14el

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    The graphics leave something to be desired but it does look amazing. Ill give it a go.but from what i understand it doesnt have a build mode?

    But those doors. I would kill for those doors in starmade. These on/off blast doors are lame but those Skywanderer doors *drools*
    We have both :p
    Hingy/slidey doors can be done in SM with rails to create moving parts (or even clever use of logic blocks & regular "doors" in some rare examples)
     
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    Criss
    REGAI - Blueprinting regex-AIs

    I think AI's work like pathfinding.
    A → B → C → D
    A → B = distance of 1
    A → D = distance of 4

    If the AI follows the shortest path, and searches a path between A and D, it will result in A→B→C→D in the processor register / cache / short term memory.
    If you search a path between ADJECTIVE and A, you get A's ADJECTIVE linked between A and ADJECTIVE, which allows you to form sentences.

    And sentences are nothing else but program code. Each word, letter or sentence is a little program.
    And (A & B)
    sentence (struct {typeA, typeB, …})
    are (1, 2 = …)
    nothing 0
    else (all options - previous)

    In the above thread, I have written everything I have learned.
    Ofcourse I also learned how to mathematically express human behaviour, but that's a thing for the database, not the cpu-design.​
    Here is a great page on path finding. PathFinding.js
    You can see and try out many types their and learn how they work its iterative and visual

    AI and path finding are two different things. AI is actually made up of different parts and methods. Path finding can be one function an AI can use.
    Most people thing of neural networks and state machines when it comes to AI. However there is a lot more. A good resource is the online open course ware through MIT on the topic. You can watch the lectures and so on for free. Probably the lowest form of AI is a smart function it simply learns and adjusts its output based upon feed back inputs. An example would be say you have a crane trying to get from point A to B and reach it in the most efficient time. The function may look at ramp up speed traction, max speed travel time when it applied brakes how hard it braked and all the corrections it need to make to get to the exact position it was trying to get. The crane has data like the when size it is running on is a certain diameter it receives data from a lidar system to indicate its position and calculate velocity so on.
    The corrections it might be ramp up speed faster or slower when to apply brakes how much to apply brakes.

    A state machine is probably best described in a simple example. Lets say you have a coffee pot. It could look at the time, is the water level full is their coffee grounds in was the filter changed... Depending on the state of each of those systems it could decide to brew coffee at a certain time or it could send you a text message to your phone to change the filter and grounds out or even that you have made X amounts of coffee maybe time to hit the store and buy some more. It is used in game AIs quite often to dictate animated character behavior. Example; if health falls below this value run away or heal ...

    Anyway, I'll stop there it can fill several books with this and not sure how much you really want to know on it.
    [doublepost=1491693077,1491692827][/doublepost]
    We have both :p
    Hingy/slidey doors can be done in SM with rails to create moving parts (or even clever use of logic blocks & regular "doors" in some rare examples)
    true but you need to hide the docker and core. But not to bad if you do't mind putting the rail upside down and hiding them under the floor and so on.You can even make a door that slides between to narrow walls in starmade. because you can use the partial slabs for walls and two blocks of partial slabs can pass through the same block space.
    [doublepost=1491694711][/doublepost]
    I'm not even sure the doom laser in the trailer works. How is that setup? What process does a player have to go through to tell the game that four lasers on four separate moving parts should combine and form one mega laser? Watch the trailer again. Does the ship actually blow up or was it covered up with the explosion animation to hide the fact that it's still there. The trailer proves that you can build these things, but not that they really work. It's a "what if" sort of thing. Of course it's early to claim the game will deliver or not.

    I just wanted to point that out. Aside from that, compact logic is likely never happening. Compacting logic will decrease performance. There are players that would have every door on their ship change, every display swap text. Denser logic = performance impact. Also, there is little actual gameplay impact when it comes to logic. Logic is good for automating weapons / jump drives right now. But sliding doors and the like mean very little in the way of how you play the game. What is the difference between opening a door block, and pushing a button to slide the door open? Not much. Compact shapes would be great, but we would rather keep things straight forward. One size fits all.

    Holographic maps sounds nice and we thought about it at one point. It's a cosmetic rp thing for the moment until we integrate it with gameplay, so something like that is put on hold while factions/npc's/the universe gets fleshed out.
    I get what you are saying it could all be CGI after effects. But honestly there is no reason nothing hard was done.

    Actually the doom laser would be fairly easy to do. Much the same way you have multiple weapons systems connected via the computers on here all you need is to write code that tells them to calculate a center connection point then draw beams to that point and then to the ship.
    The ship glowed for a for a few seconds brighter then it actually disappears right before the explosion.
    The ability for it to destroy the ship vs several blocks is just them only measuring that weapons against total ship HP vs a blocks HP. And yes they done both in the movie. That is more than easy enough to do. You are after all able to apply different effects to weapons and so on it is no different in the long run.

    And if you moved logic into something like a PLC and then wrote a cross compiler to make it java code and act as part of a state system it would run vastly faster and clean up most the lag issues related to logic. To prevent to large of programs allow one PLC per ship and 50 rungs. That would be enough to control 50 things on the ship and cause less than 1/100 the lag you currently deal with.

    Your analogy of the door only works if you think of doors that are based on doors similar to plex not on railed systems.

    Agree with the assessment of the hologram far more pressing issues in the game.
     

    NeonSturm

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    Here is a great page on path finding. PathFinding.js
    A nice visualisation, but it has all algorithms searching unnecessary fields behind the start point when I have this setup:
    // b a Z A B C D E F G
    -2 O O O O O O O O O O
    -1 O O O O O O O O # O

    ±0 O O A O O O O # O O
    +1 O O O O O # # O O O

    +2 O O O O O # O O O O
    +3 O O O # # O O O O O
    +4 O O O # O O O O O O
    +5 O O # O O O O B O O
    +6 O # O O O O O O O O
    +7 O O O O O O O O O O

    Then searches within negative space for example (-1 AND a) and requires about 120 fields to find B.

    I have a far more efficient algorithm:
    Draw a line A¯B to see that it is obstructed.
    Then search the perimeter of the obstruction TOPOLOGICALLY, perpendicular
    ( 3D space and more, based on distance to ALL points (A, B and the obstacle-hit)
    + follow multiple possible paths based on weight of the path
    )
    On that perimeter, find the lowest distance toward the obstacle-hit-point and insert this into way-points.

    Then use this way-point as intermediate goal between A¯B.​
    [doublepost=1491695184,1491694844][/doublepost]
    To prevent to large of programs allow one PLC per ship and 50 rungs.
    I spawn ship-cores connected via wireless.
    Let's hope wireless will not get removed like power-supply.

    What if shine would allow Computer-displays to be connected to a bunch of ANDs, a bunch of ORs, … until you have enough to link them like the display-content describes?
    Programmable logic, I am on my way to implement this via display-blocks and matrix-calculators but it would be nice to have a "driver" for that implementing it directly in Java.​
     
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    There are 8 different base algorithms shown on the page with a 3 to 7 variants of each one.
    You algorithm is only faster primarily because you aren't actually writing out what the obstruction topological search actually would intel for a computer to understand it. You can't just look at one scenario either to evaluate a search function. How well would your search get you from green to red you can't cross grey. How about terrain where it has different levels of impassibility.


    [doublepost=1491695892,1491695780][/doublepost]
    A nice visualisation, but it has all algorithms searching unnecessary fields behind the start point when I have this setup:
    // b a Z A B C D E F G
    -2 O O O O O O O O O O
    -1 O O O O O O O O # O

    ±0 O O A O O O O # O O
    +1 O O O O O # # O O O

    +2 O O O O O # O O O O
    +3 O O O # # O O O O O
    +4 O O O # O O O O O O
    +5 O O # O O O O B O O
    +6 O # O O O O O O O O
    +7 O O O O O O O O O O

    Then searches within negative space for example (-1 AND a) and requires about 120 fields to find B.

    I have a far more efficient algorithm:
    Draw a line A¯B to see that it is obstructed.
    Then search the perimeter of the obstruction TOPOLOGICALLY, perpendicular
    ( 3D space and more, based on distance to ALL points (A, B and the obstacle-hit)
    + follow multiple possible paths based on weight of the path
    )
    On that perimeter, find the lowest distance toward the obstacle-hit-point and insert this into way-points.

    Then use this way-point as intermediate goal between A¯B.​
    [doublepost=1491695184,1491694844][/doublepost]
    I spawn ship-cores connected via wireless.
    Let's hope wireless will not get removed like power-supply.

    What if shine would allow Computer-displays to be connected to a bunch of ANDs, a bunch of ORs, … until you have enough to link them like the display-content describes?
    Programmable logic, I am on my way to implement this via display-blocks and matrix-calculators but it would be nice to have a "driver" for that implementing it directly in Java.​
    If a person can build a 16 bit computer in minecraft there is plenty of improvement that can be done.
     

    NeonSturm

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    You algorithm is only faster primarily because you aren't actually writing out what the obstruction topological search actually would intel for a computer to understand it. You can't just look at one scenario either to evaluate a search function. How well would your search get you from green to red you can't cross grey. How about terrain where it has different levels of impassibility.

    I like that challenge, thanks :)

    From green-to-red, there is an obstruction from top-to-bottom spanning all but 2 fields.
    The first impact would be green shifted 4 fields right, from which the algorithm would go top/bottom and see that the obstruction is 23-of-25, because that is the vertical diameter of the obstacle.

    Then you need to find a way toward that perimeter (the two spots top and bottom) and walk-along it for the green spot. For the red spot you also need to find a way toward the perimeter.

    These "go-toward-perimeter" needs to look at the irregular-arc's left/right-most-point to calculate 2 possible paths: left-around and right-around. It works like the free-hand sciccor-tool in paint.
     
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    I like that challenge, thanks :)

    From green-to-red, there is an obstruction from top-to-bottom spanning all but 2 fields.
    The first impact would be green shifted 4 fields right, from which the algorithm would go top/bottom and see that the obstruction is 23-of-25, because that is the vertical diameter of the obstacle.

    Then you need to find a way toward that perimeter (the two spots top and bottom) and walk-along it for the green spot. For the red spot you also need to find a way toward the perimeter.

    These "go-toward-perimeter" needs to look at the angle to calculate 2 possible paths: left-around and right-around. It works like the free-hand sciccor-tool in paint.
    Save yourself some time and go to the page and check out Best-first-search and Trace search. They are the two fastest and what you are trying to describe is probably closest to Trace.

    Different path functions have different features. A* will generally come back with the shortest path. But is a little slower than some. While Trace and Best first search will create a connected path often faster they also can be fooled into taking the longer path to get there.
     
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    NeonSturm

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    Save yourself some time and go to the page and check out Best-first-search and Trace search. They are the two fastest and what you are trying to describe is probably closest to Trace.
    Yes, unless you build it fully-symmetrical, then it performs unnecessary steps because it lacks a built-in threshold for inaccuracy.
    (( I tried diagonal symmetry where walls are as labyrinth as possible within a reduced boundary box ))

    This means it swaps between two paths back-and-forth again and again for a very low gain.​
     
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    Yes, unless you build it fully-symmetrical, then it performs unnecessary steps because it lacks a built-in threshold for inaccuracy.
    (( I tried diagonal symmetry where walls are as labyrinth as possible within a reduced boundary box ))

    This means it swaps between two paths back-and-forth again and again for a very low gain.​
    It only does that till one path can move forward in the direction closer to the other object.
    There is good reason for that. While the image below only shows two fairly short paths image how much time would be wasted if they where longer and only one path was checked. It isn't a waste of time as you can see in the second image. I even took advantage of it checking the top first to make it waste time

     
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    NeonSturm

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    At first, upload didn't appear to work, so I uploaded it on imgur instead (was an issue with javascript-blockers I guess)
     

    Reilly Reese

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    I like how their hands look like boxing gloves are on them.
     
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    We have both :p
    Hingy/slidey doors can be done in SM with rails to create moving parts (or even clever use of logic blocks & regular "doors" in some rare examples)
    My point was we have to have separate entities to do that...excessive entities cause lag, shouldn't have to use a SHIP core to make a more intricate door other than a blast door.. They have it as a block. There is a massive difference between the two. We don't have it.
     

    AtraUnam

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    My point was we have to have separate entities to do that...excessive entities cause lag, shouldn't have to use a SHIP core to make a more intricate door other than a blast door.. They have it as a block. There is a massive difference between the two. We don't have it.
    The issue with that is their integrated sliding door can ONLY be that size, kinda limiting to only have 1x2 doors.
     
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    The issue with that is their integrated sliding door can ONLY be that size, kinda limiting to only have 1x2 doors.
    Its not limited to 1x2.

    I see what you're saying, and in response to that (despite it being incorrect(its not my intention for that to sound impolite)) logically speaking it could be built on further in the future because the platform they have for it is already there.