Planned Starmade as an Astronaut

[questorhank]

Kind of reminiscent of the personal defense thread back in the old forum.

I agree completely.
And I just so happen to have the link
http://oldsite.star-made.org/conten...r-weapons-boarding-robots-and-medicine?page=8
Well, I assume this is the one you're talking about.

 

[ante185]

I agree completely.
And I just so happen to have the link
http://oldsite.star-made.org/conten...r-weapons-boarding-robots-and-medicine?page=8
Well, I assume this is the one you're talking about.

Yup, looks like the one

 

[whooplaah]

One of the things I think Starmade is suffering from is the complete focus upon ship-only gameplay. Build, fly, salvage, repair - all without ever leaving a ship core. Most players like this, but I think it is because there is no alternative (yet). I believe that the game will have more appeal and a wider fan base by looking into astronaut-centered play.



I like the idea of a build-block specifically for items and equipment (I forget who suggested it, and can't find the original post). It would require that the character model be redone so that equipment can be 'docked' to the hand/leg/chest/head.

I think that building armor, guns, and weapons will need to implement some limits to discourage doom-cube and clipping animations. We don't want to build a giant sword that clips through the wielder's head as they run, or boots that clip through thighs. When designing an item/armor, a 'build helper' mechanic can limit where blocks can be placed to keep them out of areas that would clip through the astronaut. This means that all items will have to have a maximum and minimum size, and a rough shape depending on function.

I'm not sure which idea I like better - equipment that breaks away in voxels as each voxel is damaged (so that holes in armor mean almost nothing), or equipment that breaks away random voxels as it takes damage but is 100% useful until 100% destroyed, or equipment that is 100% present until 100% destroyed with no voxel breaks at all.

This should also be balanced with a block limit or mass limit per item. This will prevent min-maxing the item by filling in the entire allowed area.

To encourage player-to-player combat, pilots should persist during ship flight instead of disappearing into the core. A capital ship can be neutralized by sneaking up behind the captain while he's piloting - and suddenly small, nimble, sneaky ships are useful against battleships. This also gives an extra purpose for hiring crews of NPC's (which will, of course, each need equipment created from the work-bench). Should the captain stop piloting and fight the boarded enemy, or hope his crew handles things and focus on the capital ship?

Boarding parties will be made easier by implementing teleporter pads (like warp gates, but for astronauts only). Ships that use teleporter pads to beam over boarding parties are susceptible to having the pad hacked by another ship and used as an entry point (though that doesn't mean they can't still use it to go out). Teleporter pads would also be more common if large ships can't handle gravity as well. It will also be useful for large ships that can't dock on a station. Then we have to decide; functionality vs. weakness.

Boarding a ship then gives cause for hacking systems (a power computer, a shield computer, a shield recharge computer, turret controls, dock controls, engine control, etc.). This would make boarding a ship a very effective combat strategy, and means that ships would have to acknowledge internal defenses (special turrets that only target astronauts) and ways to get computers back online once taken down.



The point that I am trying to make here is the importance of implementing astronaut mechanics while still developing ship mechanics so that they can be integrated as they develop rather than having to back-track and redesign. As it is going now, most game features discourage astronaut play.

 

[Valiant70]

Oh good! Someone found this and bumped it!

One of the things I think Starmade is suffering from is the complete focus upon ship-only gameplay. Build, fly, salvage, repair - all without ever leaving a ship core. Most players like this, but I think it is because there is no alternative (yet). I believe that the game will have more appeal and a wider fan base by looking into astronaut-centered play.



I like the idea of a build-block specifically for items and equipment (I forget who suggested it, and can't find the original post). It would require that the character model be redone so that equipment can be 'docked' to the hand/leg/chest/head.

I think that building armor, guns, and weapons will need to implement some limits to discourage doom-cube and clipping animations. We don't want to build a giant sword that clips through the wielder's head as they run, or boots that clip through thighs. When designing an item/armor, a 'build helper' mechanic can limit where blocks can be placed to keep them out of areas that would clip through the astronaut. This means that all items will have to have a maximum and minimum size, and a rough shape depending on function.

I'm not sure which idea I like better - equipment that breaks away in voxels as each voxel is damaged (so that holes in armor mean almost nothing), or equipment that breaks away random voxels as it takes damage but is 100% useful until 100% destroyed, or equipment that is 100% present until 100% destroyed with no voxel breaks at all.

This should also be balanced with a block limit or mass limit per item. This will prevent min-maxing the item by filling in the entire allowed area.

To encourage player-to-player combat, pilots should persist during ship flight instead of disappearing into the core. A capital ship can be neutralized by sneaking up behind the captain while he's piloting - and suddenly small, nimble, sneaky ships are useful against battleships. This also gives an extra purpose for hiring crews of NPC's (which will, of course, each need equipment created from the work-bench). Should the captain stop piloting and fight the boarded enemy, or hope his crew handles things and focus on the capital ship?

Boarding parties will be made easier by implementing teleporter pads (like warp gates, but for astronauts only). Ships that use teleporter pads to beam over boarding parties are susceptible to having the pad hacked by another ship and used as an entry point (though that doesn't mean they can't still use it to go out). Teleporter pads would also be more common if large ships can't handle gravity as well. It will also be useful for large ships that can't dock on a station. Then we have to decide; functionality vs. weakness.

Boarding a ship then gives cause for hacking systems (a power computer, a shield computer, a shield recharge computer, turret controls, dock controls, engine control, etc.). This would make boarding a ship a very effective combat strategy, and means that ships would have to acknowledge internal defenses (special turrets that only target astronauts) and ways to get computers back online once taken down.



The point that I am trying to make here is the importance of implementing astronaut mechanics while still developing ship mechanics so that they can be integrated as they develop rather than having to back-track and redesign. As it is going now, most game features discourage astronaut play.

You make a good point. Part of this is what I've been saying all along. Focus some more on astronaut game content and mechanics before everything is already in place. Put in a framework that can develop WITH the rest of the game. A well-fleshed-out astronaut aspect of the game will attract a lot more people with a wider variety of play styles, enriching server communities by providing people who don't ALL want to do just about the same thing.

Voxel armor is cool, but I'm concerned about frame rate. Perhaps instead of adding blocks it should add squares to a 2D texture layer. That wouldn't allow as much detailing, but would make for better performance. If nothing else, there should be an option to "flatten" player armor graphically to preserve one's frame rate.

Boarding, interestingly enough is already possible in game but very difficult. If and when additional boarding methods become available, I bet things will get even more interesting. The hacking and teleporter pads you described sound pretty good to me.

 

[Snk]

Boarding, interestingly enough is already possible in game but very difficult. If and when additional boarding methods become available, I bet things will get even more interesting. The hacking and teleporter pads you described sound pretty good to me.

Warheads generally go through shields.

Also, Valiant, I believe you would like this thread: http://starmadedock.net/threads/super-important-yet-simple-radar-jamming-features.5986/

 

[keylan118]

Nanites: Starmade's "black gold." (or grey? but that would be lame.) Dude, that totally reminds me of a song by Miracleofsound called The New Black Gold. Funny thing is it's about a cyborg.

Heeeeeeeyyyyyy!!!!
That song is "old".

Spoiler

Anyways, this game could totally use some FPS action, but maybe after all the actual ship stuff is worked out, and we need a reason to shoot at others personally instead of using big, gigantic ships.

 

[snowhusky5]

This seems to me like it could make the game a lot better. I realllly like the idea of making custom weapons/armor/etc using real blocks. To balance the ease of making these guns/etc very cheaply, the equipment factory could simply take a long time and/or use a lot of power. It could even literally miniaturize the blocks, which would explain the power consumption. Extremely tiny atoms are expensive, you know.

IMO, augments should just be integrated with body/arm/leg/head/etc equipment. So replacing the standard armor blocks with thrusters in your shoes will give your boots rocket capabilities for example, or using shield capacitators will give you a personal shield. This allows for less powerful generalized equipment (all-in-one multitool) and also for highly specialized and stronger equipment, such as a boarding suit with thrusters and shields (and maybe a push/pull effect for boosts), or an energy-hungry cloaking suit.
However, something would be required to prevent people from carrying around other equipment that they switch to as needed, such as needing an atmosphere to change clothes, taking time to change, slowing you down if you carry more than 1 suit, etc.

As for weapons, custom guns sound great (you could even make multiple fire modes, like bullets vs explosive launcher). Custom swords would probably work well. Only question (which applies to armor as well) is what cannons and other weapons would do. Now we just need a way to blow an entrance into a ship that has shields still.

 

[Valiant70]

Now we just need a way to blow an entrance into a ship that has shields still.

Well, the truth is boarding doesn't happen all that much on a ship that still has its shields. Honestly though, I don't think shields should be a concern anymore once you get inside of a ship. Some coding needs to be done so that a ship is not protected from weapons fired from within. Shields could still recover and protect a hull breach from outside weapons, but once you're "under the ship's skin" so to speak, shields should be irrelevant. This would be very hard to code with the current setup, but seems like the best solution.

Here's what I think should happen: Take down shields long enough to get a boarding party in, then they're on their own and self-sufficient. The boarding party fights their way through the ship's interior to the bridge where they kill the crew, shoot out or hack the faction module, and take over.

 

[CaptainTaz]

Well, the truth is boarding doesn't happen all that much on a ship that still has its shields. Honestly though, I don't think shields should be a concern anymore once you get inside of a ship. Some coding needs to be done so that a ship is not protected from weapons fired from within. Shields could still recover and protect a hull breach from outside weapons, but once you're "under the ship's skin" so to speak, shields should be irrelevant. This would be very hard to code with the current setup, but seems like the best solution.

Here's what I think should happen: Take down shields long enough to get a boarding party in, then they're on their own and self-sufficient. The boarding party fights their way through the ship's interior to the bridge where they kill the crew, shoot out or hack the faction module, and take over.

They should leave one guy behind to fire EMP and ION weapons to keep the shields down and keep the vessel from escaping.

 

[jayman38]

Well, the truth is boarding doesn't happen all that much on a ship that still has its shields. Honestly though, I don't think shields should be a concern anymore once you get inside of a ship. Some coding needs to be done so that a ship is not protected from weapons fired from within. Shields could still recover and protect a hull breach from outside weapons, but once you're "under the ship's skin" so to speak, shields should be irrelevant. This would be very hard to code with the current setup, but seems like the best solution.

Here's what I think should happen: Take down shields long enough to get a boarding party in, then they're on their own and self-sufficient. The boarding party fights their way through the ship's interior to the bridge where they kill the crew, shoot out or hack the faction module, and take over.

Maybe the game could be coded to pass shields over aligned astronauts, so they are effectively under the shield and can affect the aligned-to ship directly. Effectively, once an asteroid attaches magboots to the ship's skin, the shield goes around the astronaut's suit. Otherwise, there's no real way to determine "inside" the ship versus "outside", especially after the hull has been ripped to shreds by naval-grade weapons fire.

 

[Snk]

You can already bypass shields with warheads.

 

[Valiant70]

You can already bypass shields with warheads.

Really? I'll have to test that.

They should leave one guy behind to fire EMP and ION weapons to keep the shields down and keep the vessel from escaping.

That's what has to happen in the current game.

Maybe the game could be coded to pass shields over aligned astronauts, so they are effectively under the shield and can affect the aligned-to ship directly. Effectively, once an asteroid attaches magboots to the ship's skin, the shield goes around the astronaut's suit. Otherwise, there's no real way to determine "inside" the ship versus "outside", especially after the hull has been ripped to shreds by naval-grade weapons fire.

I don't think that's the way the shields are coded. I don't think it's a mesh. I think the game just checks to see if the structure the block belongs too has shielding and then renders the shield graphically. To implement your or my idea, it would have to become a mesh.

 

[jayman38]

I don't think that's the way the shields are coded. I don't think it's a mesh. I think the game just checks to see if there structure the block belomgs too has shielding and then renders the shield graphically. To implement your or my idea, it would have to become a mesh.

I think you are most likely correct for current shields. However, I think to make this work, it would simply have to change from a simple self-entity check to a linked-entity check, excluding any linked entities that fall under a list of non-shielded entity types such as turrets. Still relatively simpler than having a shield mesh.

 

[Snk]

Really? I'll have to test that.

One warhead broke the shields and incinerated the target I built on the E15 wanderer. They are pretty powerful. I am not sure if they just ignore shields, or do enough damage to make it seem like it. At any rate, I am sure you could have some sort of decent boarding tactics using Warheads and stop drones.

 

[Lecic]

One warhead broke the shields and incinerated the target I built on the E15 wanderer. They are pretty powerful. I am not sure if they just ignore shields, or do enough damage to make it seem like it. At any rate, I am sure you could have some sort of decent boarding tactics using Warheads and stop drones.

Warheads ignore the shields of the thing they are placed on. I believe they do 5% shield damage (regardless of shield numbers) to targets, if the Blood and Steel crew are to be believed...

 

[Snk]

Warheads ignore the shields of the thing they are placed on. I believe they do 5% shield damage (regardless of shield numbers) to targets, if the Blood and Steel crew are to be believed...

It was a core with a one warhead flown into the ship. It completely destroyed part of the ship.

 

[Viridis00]

One warhead broke the shields and incinerated the target I built on the E15 wanderer. They are pretty powerful. I am not sure if they just ignore shields, or do enough damage to make it seem like it.

This thread got me curious and I tried it myself on a ship with 30k shields. It doesn't break shields, but they do damage shields quite a bit. If this ship you were talking about had low shields and the warhead broke though those, they are pretty damn powerful.

 

[Lecic]

It was a core with a one warhead flown into the ship. It completely destroyed part of the ship.

Jaaskinal did some testing for me (singleplayer doesn't work well for me) and found that sequential warheads were doing larger and larger damage amounts.... a collection of floating warheads in a line did 10k on first impact, the second did 20k, the third did 30, then 40k, and so on.

 

[Snk]

This thread got me curious and I tried it myself on a ship with 30k shields. It doesn't break shields, but they do damage shields quite a bit. If this ship you were talking about had low shields and the warhead broke though those, they are pretty damn powerful.

I don't know how many shields it had, but it was a ship of about 1000 mass.

 

[Keptick]

Weapon multi-slot would already be a huuuuuuuuuuuuge improvement.

Also, +1 for the well thought out post.