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Recent Shield Nerf
- Thread starter Rodentsnipe
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small ships aren\'t ment for taking down big ships. Their there to fight off the other small ships and then dock the enemy ship so you can sabatosh it.
Giving some thought to it, I like the nerf. I was still able to destroy dozens of small ships with my titan vessel, I just took some damage in the process.
I think it makes pretty ships MORE viable, as anything that makes hull more relatively powerful makes pretty ships better. This should get rid of those silly ships which are made of entirely shield blocks and AMC cannons, and those are frankly an eyesore.
More importantly, the people who make pretty ships don\'t make them to be super effective. The Star Trek/ Star wars models won\'t stop to exist, because they were never that good to begin with.
On the topic of giant shield plates in turret mounts. Those actually sound awesome, far, far more balanced than invincibility, and I\'m sure there\'s ways to make them look prettier.
Firstly, they reqiure more resources, and time, as you have to make several components with giant docking ports and combine them together.
Secondly, they can get permanently damaged, and ship rotation starts to matter as shield plates are destroyed.
Thirdly, they make partial ship destruction possible, instead of always aiming at the core.
Fourth, they limit your visibility and weapons, which is a viable tradeoff for increased protection.
For server admins - make spawn a protected area, ban griefers or have a whitelist. beyond that, can\'t help you.
As to making ships invalid, this is an alpha. These things will happen. You did not pay good money for this. People already had to adjust when the power system got hit on the head, and they can do it again.
In fact, since this is a ship building game, building new ships under new restrictions is part of the fun. Having to change up your strats makes you build different ships.
I think it makes pretty ships MORE viable, as anything that makes hull more relatively powerful makes pretty ships better. This should get rid of those silly ships which are made of entirely shield blocks and AMC cannons, and those are frankly an eyesore.
More importantly, the people who make pretty ships don\'t make them to be super effective. The Star Trek/ Star wars models won\'t stop to exist, because they were never that good to begin with.
On the topic of giant shield plates in turret mounts. Those actually sound awesome, far, far more balanced than invincibility, and I\'m sure there\'s ways to make them look prettier.
Firstly, they reqiure more resources, and time, as you have to make several components with giant docking ports and combine them together.
Secondly, they can get permanently damaged, and ship rotation starts to matter as shield plates are destroyed.
Thirdly, they make partial ship destruction possible, instead of always aiming at the core.
Fourth, they limit your visibility and weapons, which is a viable tradeoff for increased protection.
For server admins - make spawn a protected area, ban griefers or have a whitelist. beyond that, can\'t help you.
As to making ships invalid, this is an alpha. These things will happen. You did not pay good money for this. People already had to adjust when the power system got hit on the head, and they can do it again.
In fact, since this is a ship building game, building new ships under new restrictions is part of the fun. Having to change up your strats makes you build different ships.
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In a RTS game like command and conquer you can not beat a tank with a single infatry man, even if the tanks cannon was ineffective against the lone infatry, however if i would bring 10 infatry i would slowly but surely beat the tank due to the fact that the tanks anti-tank cannon was less efficent against infatry then the infatrys rifles against the tank. the problem in starmade from what ive heard from the forums is that a 600 block ship was more powerfull and undamageble then 10 60 block ships, of course a small little figther shouldnt be able to take down the largest ship, but it should still have a chance, but he might have to get some buddys and get a few more ships.
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anyone not understand the uselessness of turrets? ya great I get an extension to my ship; that everytime I log in needs to be checked and rearmed. The range on them for their size is also terrible, and their accuracy makes it even worse, I litterally had to place 13 of them all over my ship just to have a chance to hit a small ship, even then a skilled pilot would evade more than 99% of the shots... so they already can get past my defenses and start chipping away at my shields. Before patch, yes large ships had slightly overpowered shields, however it still made sense since they had weaknesses,and it took teamwork to bring them down. IRL a small gunboat will never be able to singlehandedly bring down a carrier, so why should it here? I understand the need for methods of smaller ships to at least be able to significantly damage something, but don\'t just make it so easy for them. The delay is enough and maybe a slight change in regen, but not as severe as the negative curve it is now.
also the current system will be changed, this is alpha and schema still has more to offer us though hopefully he understands how he went to far. The servers are currently burning, as the old and glorious flagships stand near uselessly to the tiny fighters that now counter them super effectively.
also the current system will be changed, this is alpha and schema still has more to offer us though hopefully he understands how he went to far. The servers are currently burning, as the old and glorious flagships stand near uselessly to the tiny fighters that now counter them super effectively.
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\"In fact, since this is a ship building game, building new ships under new restrictions is part of the fun. Having to change up your strats makes you build different ships.\"
okay, so now I get to enjoy building fighters... something I have already done plenty of times and is frankly not too exciting. Small ships look ugly because of blocks and is really difficult to not just cover it in shields now
okay, so now I get to enjoy building fighters... something I have already done plenty of times and is frankly not too exciting. Small ships look ugly because of blocks and is really difficult to not just cover it in shields now
\"okay, so now I get to enjoy building fighters... something I have already done plenty of times and is frankly not too exciting. Small ships look ugly because of blocks and is really difficult to not just cover it in shields now\"
I don\'t know what kind of fighter you\'re building that can take 20k damage and live to fight back.
Maybe you should try Rodent\'s docked shield plate idea. Maybe you should get more hull (something like 4-7 blocks thick) Maybe you should up the speed on your turret guns in exchange for range, or damage.
It also helps to lead the ship and set a higher mouse sensitivity.
In fact, this is I think the greatest problem. Once I upped the speed of my guns in exchange for range and damage, I started demolishing little ships since they couldn\'t dodge very well.
Personally, I think either weapons need a nerf now, or hulls need a buff. Shields can stay where they are, they should be a secondary defense system.
Honestly, if your dinky little fighter can take on a giant battleship and not die within seconds, you deserve something. Maybe not a kill, but at least some damage.
I don\'t know what kind of fighter you\'re building that can take 20k damage and live to fight back.
Maybe you should try Rodent\'s docked shield plate idea. Maybe you should get more hull (something like 4-7 blocks thick) Maybe you should up the speed on your turret guns in exchange for range, or damage.
It also helps to lead the ship and set a higher mouse sensitivity.
In fact, this is I think the greatest problem. Once I upped the speed of my guns in exchange for range and damage, I started demolishing little ships since they couldn\'t dodge very well.
Personally, I think either weapons need a nerf now, or hulls need a buff. Shields can stay where they are, they should be a secondary defense system.
Honestly, if your dinky little fighter can take on a giant battleship and not die within seconds, you deserve something. Maybe not a kill, but at least some damage.
That\'s kind of what he did. Plug his new math into a spreadsheet and make several lines where ships have different amounts of shields. You\'ll find that bigger ships have a smaller proportional regen per second as opposed to the smaller ones. Plus the smaller ones have a shorter on-hit delay timer.
... I\'ve decided there\'s a problem bigger than what kinds of ships are designed to do what vs other ships.
Starbases are now helpless unless you just have one station and mark it as your faction\'s HQ. Even if you have 100,000,000 shield points in that thing, it\'ll just take longer to die since its shields cannot regenerate unless the guy gets bored of shooting.
Starbases are now helpless unless you just have one station and mark it as your faction\'s HQ. Even if you have 100,000,000 shield points in that thing, it\'ll just take longer to die since its shields cannot regenerate unless the guy gets bored of shooting.
I think the most ridiculous is missiles. An energy based weapon being bigger and more powerful able to fire fast I can live with. If anything, your energy weapon slowly tends towards a beam weapon, which makes sense in the proggression of energy weaponry. But for missiles to go faster and explode bigger and harder, WHILE turning into machine guns.. it doesn\'t make much sense to me.
If your missile luncher is big like a moon, even though the game doesn\'t actually renders a bigger missile, for it to do the damage of that moon sized launcher, it\'d pretty much be the size of a moon. How is that supposed to be reloaded in less than a friggin day.
(Calm down, I\'m not saying big missile weaponry should take a day to reload.)
If your missile luncher is big like a moon, even though the game doesn\'t actually renders a bigger missile, for it to do the damage of that moon sized launcher, it\'d pretty much be the size of a moon. How is that supposed to be reloaded in less than a friggin day.
(Calm down, I\'m not saying big missile weaponry should take a day to reload.)
100,000,000 shields
let\'s say their ship does 1000 dps
They\'d have to sit there for 27 hours to get through your shields. Then they can get into destroying your station.
Assuming you have no turrets or players in your faction checking in on it,
I\'d get bored.
In fact, to take off 100.000.000 shields in an hour, you\'d need 27000+ dps
Honestly, I wouldn\'t want to stare at a base eating all my shots for an hour. I\'d get bored even then.
For it to take about a minute, you\'d need 16.000.000 dps
If I build 16,000,000 dps in my ship, then I could take down your starbase even under the old system, probably easier.
So this update makes starbases vulnerable to medium to large ships
let\'s say their ship does 1000 dps
They\'d have to sit there for 27 hours to get through your shields. Then they can get into destroying your station.
Assuming you have no turrets or players in your faction checking in on it,
I\'d get bored.
In fact, to take off 100.000.000 shields in an hour, you\'d need 27000+ dps
Honestly, I wouldn\'t want to stare at a base eating all my shots for an hour. I\'d get bored even then.
For it to take about a minute, you\'d need 16.000.000 dps
If I build 16,000,000 dps in my ship, then I could take down your starbase even under the old system, probably easier.
So this update makes starbases vulnerable to medium to large ships
this is the kind of thing ive been trying to say. just because a noob box CAN kill your titan, doesnt mean it WILL. the guy would have to shoot you uninterupted for rediculouse ammounts of time. now lets add turrets, your friends, the fighters in your hangar you could use yourself, and the chances of a fighter killing anything bigger than a cruiser are looking slim to none.
MrFURB
Madman of the Girders
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Wow, a lot of opinions on this, and good ones on both sides! Allow me to put a tester\'s viewpoint on this, and maybe some of the other testers will also share their opinions...
I am in favor of the recent shield nerf. In fact, I\'m probably one of the people Schema\'s feedback was based around when he was doing the nerf.
The reason the old system was BS is due to two unintended effects of shield mechanics.
Firstly, and most importantly, they created an invincibility thresh-hold, a type of \'you must be this tall to enter this ride\' sign in front of an enemy ship based on size and effectiveness. If the total maintainable firepower of one side does not at least equal the shield regen of the other, then they might as well commit suicide, no matter how well they play, how individually skilled they are, or how tactically superior their attacks are.
Secondly, the balance of shields was very highly assymetrical. A giant could ignore a fighter shooting at it, but another giant could volley through it\'s shields in less than a second and melt through it\'s subsystems just as fast. Shields served absolutely no purpose against other capital ships, the ONLY thing they acomplished was to create an unavoidable statistical superiority complex among larger ships that demeans a player\'s skill or choices in design by reinforcing the logic of an unbalanced RPG; the bigger sword always wins.
This new shield system takes care of both of these problems to a degree. Lowered regen and the regen delay combined completely remove invincibility thresh-holds, thus opening up the game for medium and smaller ships to roam the stars which in turn create opportunities for them to have their own roles more developed. That\'s a huge plus, as who doesn\'t like zipping across a battlefield in a nimble fighter, hunting down bombers or running tactical strikes against vital systems of a capital ship?
With our shield\'s increased capacity (Especially in larger shield arrays where capacity is sorely needed) capital ships still have a long-lasting barrier that a fighter can\'t hope to get through in time for the capital\'s support ships/turrets/missiles/heck-just-use-the-time-to-retreat-or-something-smart to deal with the pesky little one.
Battles between equally powerful capital ships will now last a little longer, which is definitely good, but I still would like to see a higher curve on shield capacity, either that or slightly reduce the cost of shield blocks overall.
In the end, yes, an incy wincy fighter can destroy any ship, but do you really think a capital ship pilot is going to let a fighter attack their expensive, powerful, armed-to-the-teeth juggernaught for an hour without trying to shoot back or calling in support?
I am all for this change. It\'s the beginning of turning Starmade combat from a battle of raw statistical power to a mix of firepower and skill. With both cunning and a well designed ship, you can take on a terribly piloted enemy ship larger than you and live to tell the tale!
I am in favor of the recent shield nerf. In fact, I\'m probably one of the people Schema\'s feedback was based around when he was doing the nerf.
The reason the old system was BS is due to two unintended effects of shield mechanics.
Firstly, and most importantly, they created an invincibility thresh-hold, a type of \'you must be this tall to enter this ride\' sign in front of an enemy ship based on size and effectiveness. If the total maintainable firepower of one side does not at least equal the shield regen of the other, then they might as well commit suicide, no matter how well they play, how individually skilled they are, or how tactically superior their attacks are.
Secondly, the balance of shields was very highly assymetrical. A giant could ignore a fighter shooting at it, but another giant could volley through it\'s shields in less than a second and melt through it\'s subsystems just as fast. Shields served absolutely no purpose against other capital ships, the ONLY thing they acomplished was to create an unavoidable statistical superiority complex among larger ships that demeans a player\'s skill or choices in design by reinforcing the logic of an unbalanced RPG; the bigger sword always wins.
This new shield system takes care of both of these problems to a degree. Lowered regen and the regen delay combined completely remove invincibility thresh-holds, thus opening up the game for medium and smaller ships to roam the stars which in turn create opportunities for them to have their own roles more developed. That\'s a huge plus, as who doesn\'t like zipping across a battlefield in a nimble fighter, hunting down bombers or running tactical strikes against vital systems of a capital ship?
With our shield\'s increased capacity (Especially in larger shield arrays where capacity is sorely needed) capital ships still have a long-lasting barrier that a fighter can\'t hope to get through in time for the capital\'s support ships/turrets/missiles/heck-just-use-the-time-to-retreat-or-something-smart to deal with the pesky little one.
Battles between equally powerful capital ships will now last a little longer, which is definitely good, but I still would like to see a higher curve on shield capacity, either that or slightly reduce the cost of shield blocks overall.
In the end, yes, an incy wincy fighter can destroy any ship, but do you really think a capital ship pilot is going to let a fighter attack their expensive, powerful, armed-to-the-teeth juggernaught for an hour without trying to shoot back or calling in support?
I am all for this change. It\'s the beginning of turning Starmade combat from a battle of raw statistical power to a mix of firepower and skill. With both cunning and a well designed ship, you can take on a terribly piloted enemy ship larger than you and live to tell the tale!
lupoCani
First Citizen
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But perhaps that was a bad choice of words. I mean, not that those values are not readable, but there\'s more to this than the current shield aspects taken out of context. How much has it changed, how much dps does an Amc do, etc? Those shield values mean nothing without a frame of reference.
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I\'ve noticed the power usage numbers on shields have shifted in game (drastically) - but I\'m not actually noticing it effectively drawing more?
No ship should be losing 95% of its shield capacity, I don\'t care how big it is. This is incredibly heavy-handed of the developers and hardly makes large ships worth the time and money to create.
This silliness is exactly why the term \"nerf\" was coined and, in gaming, is universally done to satisfy noobs for whatever reason. This instance is no different.
So sure, some capital ships were invulnerable to anything but capital ships. But tweaking the shield capacity to this point means any cap-on-cap battle will be over in two minutes considering the complete and utter lack of any kind of useful armor. This nerf basically makes effective defenses nonexistent on large-scale ships without having most of your mass a ten-block thick carpace of heavy, expensive cardboard.
If I were to come across this problem, I would add dedicated shieldbreaker weapons while perhaps tweaking the shields to regenerate more slowly as size increases. This would mean that small ships could indeed bring down the shields of capitals, though it would take a considerable amount of time and capital ships would actually have defenses against each other as well. It is patently ridiculous to reduce the capacity to the point that a ship has minimal defense against its own weapons - The Nexus can output 350,000 DPS but its shields could most likely only hold out for a few seconds against such a barrage, and adding more shield blocks would do little to solve the issue.
With one thousand generators on a ship giving a total HP of around 80,000 and effectively no regen in combat due to a high volume of fire, a 100-200 mass craft could easily get behind it, take down the shields, and shred it through the engine core. I know this because I\'ve built one with no less then eleven antimatter cannons. It is exceptionally hard to hit for players and AI alike and as of now is probably completely overpowered because of the new buffs to small shield generators.
I predict that without a more functional and balanced change capital ships will eventually become little more than gigantic blocks of armor derping through space at three miles an hour.
This silliness is exactly why the term \"nerf\" was coined and, in gaming, is universally done to satisfy noobs for whatever reason. This instance is no different.
So sure, some capital ships were invulnerable to anything but capital ships. But tweaking the shield capacity to this point means any cap-on-cap battle will be over in two minutes considering the complete and utter lack of any kind of useful armor. This nerf basically makes effective defenses nonexistent on large-scale ships without having most of your mass a ten-block thick carpace of heavy, expensive cardboard.
If I were to come across this problem, I would add dedicated shieldbreaker weapons while perhaps tweaking the shields to regenerate more slowly as size increases. This would mean that small ships could indeed bring down the shields of capitals, though it would take a considerable amount of time and capital ships would actually have defenses against each other as well. It is patently ridiculous to reduce the capacity to the point that a ship has minimal defense against its own weapons - The Nexus can output 350,000 DPS but its shields could most likely only hold out for a few seconds against such a barrage, and adding more shield blocks would do little to solve the issue.
With one thousand generators on a ship giving a total HP of around 80,000 and effectively no regen in combat due to a high volume of fire, a 100-200 mass craft could easily get behind it, take down the shields, and shred it through the engine core. I know this because I\'ve built one with no less then eleven antimatter cannons. It is exceptionally hard to hit for players and AI alike and as of now is probably completely overpowered because of the new buffs to small shield generators.
I predict that without a more functional and balanced change capital ships will eventually become little more than gigantic blocks of armor derping through space at three miles an hour.