PvP Anti-Player Research

    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Well, fighters ARE better---at getting places (Provided either both have JDs or neither do) and avoiding shots. Mostly avoiding shots. Also, a swarm of fighters can utterly destroy any titan foolish enough to travel alone, without sufficient AAA.
     

    Reilly Reese

    #1 Top Forum Poster & Raiben Jackpot Winner
    Joined
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages
    5,140
    Reaction score
    1,365
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    Well, fighters ARE better---at getting places (Provided either both have JDs or neither do) and avoiding shots. Mostly avoiding shots. Also, a swarm of fighters can utterly destroy any titan foolish enough to travel alone, without sufficient AAA.
    You forget titans maintain a high swarmer array for drones and smaller craft usually.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Yeah, hence the "without proper defense" caveat. However.....a swarm of bomber drones would still be able to destroy a titan, given enough time.
     
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages
    455
    Reaction score
    59
    Unless said Titan subscribes to my philosophy of anti-small-crap defense: Ultra-heatseeking-missile-array-of-doom. Just fire loads of powerful heatseeking missiles and you should be good. Max scatter effect for a few turrets, or min scatter effect for many, many outputs. Doesn't matter. The point is, drones should kinda vanish off the battlefield after a few volleys.
    Awesome stuff going on in here. I gotta test all my vessels in PvP (Me vs. Madman, to begin with) before graduating to the mass drone tests ... fling drones at it til the server crashes (aww) or the ship breaks, or I get bored of hurtling useless drones at it and switch to AI ships to match it. That, or I go ahead and light it up myself in another, similar ship.
     

    Az14el

    Definitely not a skywanderers dev
    Joined
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages
    848
    Reaction score
    325
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    Also try using shield drain, its gud.
    Efficient damage & regen, takes some space in blocks for a good one.

    A mixture of high shield cap + Ion + Shield Drain/Docked SSU w/ low to no onboard regen in favor of higher capacity/more power/armor would be a fun experiment.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Docked shields?

    Do I see a method to get yourself massacred in the event of a failure?
     
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages
    455
    Reaction score
    59
    Lol. Docked reactor + penetrating cannon round + lucky (read: unlucky for server) shot on docker = Sli---deshow.
     

    AtraUnam

    Maiden of crashes
    Joined
    Oct 15, 2013
    Messages
    1,121
    Reaction score
    869
    • Railman Gold
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Wired for Logic Gold
    Lol. Docked reactor + penetrating cannon round + lucky (read: unlucky for server) shot on docker = Sli---deshow.
    A considerate builder puts a logic JD on their reactor so it jumps away the moment it undocks.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Keptick
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages
    1,696
    Reaction score
    1,199
    • Thinking Positive
    • Likeable
    Countering Cc

    The range on Cc is listed as 1 sector. So, in theory, any missile (minimum 1.5 sector range), plus sniper cannons and sniper beams (Cb & Bb respectively) should be able to stand-off a ship relying on Cc weapons.

    Of course, the difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is none and in practice there is.

    Assuming roughly equivalent ship size & power, does anyone else find that in practice ranging down a Cc reliant player is extremely difficult due primarily to the unreliability of sector transitions you must pass through in order to do so and the fact that once you've reached safe stand-off range your HUD target tends to disappear and re-appear (in different places) a lot due to transitions if both ships are maneuvering?

    IMO, this is what has made the Cc meta so extremely dominant; not the math on its DPS. Because it is shortest range after pulse, it should be easy to out-range with a broad scope of weapons, but it really isn't because the HUD icon teleports around too much to lock onto, and non-guided weapons fired tend to find empty space the vast majority of the time.
     

    Reilly Reese

    #1 Top Forum Poster & Raiben Jackpot Winner
    Joined
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages
    5,140
    Reaction score
    1,365
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    Countering Cc

    The range on Cc is listed as 1 sector. So, in theory, any missile (minimum 1.5 sector range), plus sniper cannons and sniper beams (Cb & Bb respectively) should be able to stand-off a ship relying on Cc weapons.

    Of course, the difference between theory and practice is that in theory there is none and in practice there is.

    Assuming roughly equivalent ship size & power, does anyone else find that in practice ranging down a Cc reliant player is extremely difficult due primarily to the unreliability of sector transitions you must pass through in order to do so and the fact that once you've reached safe stand-off range your HUD target tends to disappear and re-appear (in different places) a lot due to transitions if both ships are maneuvering?

    IMO, this is what has made the Cc meta so extremely dominant; not the math on its DPS. Because it is shortest range after pulse, it should be easy to out-range with a broad scope of weapons, but it really isn't because the HUD icon teleports around too much to lock onto, and non-guided weapons fired tend to find empty space the vast majority of the time.
    Well there is also PD which can completely counter missile DPS.
     
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages
    1,696
    Reaction score
    1,199
    • Thinking Positive
    • Likeable
    Well there is also PD which can completely counter missile DPS.
    To an extent, but since that missile speed upgrade, PD has lost a lot. So is that an agreement that in practice the shortest ranged weapon in game (pulse aside) is actually longest ranged effective weapon for proper PvP? Just disagreement about the cause?
     

    Edymnion

    Carebear Extraordinaire!
    Joined
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages
    2,709
    Reaction score
    1,512
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Yeah, hence the "without proper defense" caveat.
    Which is frankly a pretty meaningless caveat.

    An astronaut with the default laser pistol can single handed destroy a titan that doesn't have "proper defenses" (like shields).
     

    Reilly Reese

    #1 Top Forum Poster & Raiben Jackpot Winner
    Joined
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages
    5,140
    Reaction score
    1,365
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    Which is frankly a pretty meaningless caveat.

    An astronaut with the default laser pistol can single handed destroy a titan that doesn't have "proper defenses" (like shields).
    That would take so woefully long that the astronaut would have died from boredom. :/
     
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages
    455
    Reaction score
    59
    It would be enjoyable to watch.
    Faction blocks take too much punishment to deal with firing that laser pistol. You'd be at it for hours. Not kidding, I tried it for 2 minutes and didn't make a scratch.
    Torch beam isn't much better.
    (I'm assuming you CAPTURE this fool's undefended Titan)
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Why bother with the noobmobile titan? Just shoot it with a sufficiently armed lightweight fighter until you can come back for the salvage.
     

    StormWing0

    Leads the Storm
    Joined
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages
    2,126
    Reaction score
    316
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    lol the problem is that noobmobile titan is often used to wipe out large areas before they learn why you shouldn't fly what you can't afford to lose. XD
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Yeah....but if it's a true noob's titan, it won't be optimized or very powerful, and maybe rely on something like a single super but unguided missile.
     

    Az14el

    Definitely not a skywanderers dev
    Joined
    Apr 25, 2015
    Messages
    848
    Reaction score
    325
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    Some weapon ideas I very much likey;

    SD Beams - Very underrated, provide some pretty intense shield regen while doing decent shield dmg for their size, awesome defensive option for head to heads or for a smaller vessel to outregen swarmer rounds, can be slaved with anything but no effects. Can't be used by AI :(

    Missile - Beam - Pierce - Put this in a big waffle pattern with shots layered back to back, insanely penetrative, turn clusters of smaller missiles (so swarmers also but ehh, i dont like em as much) into a nightmare for your opponent, pierce has a large armor damage malus, and waffle patterns are inherently low dps for size, but with a large grid it simply melts through armor through repetitive pierce hits (including baffled armor), this makes a good one shot weapon against lowly armored/smaller ships, but some alt shield damage support is needed.

    Beam - Beam - Ion - Awesome burst per block, can't be interrupted like missile damage and gains full benefit from Ion effect (missiles only gain 50% of the bonus shield damage at best), several of these forward mounted on turrets set to select target is some top tier passive shield shredding.

    Cannon - Beam - Overdrive - For pretty much the same reason as above, AI are decent little snipers so long as you handle the range for them, great for smaller railgun type turrets, huge shield damage with solid penetration.

    Beam - Missile (~20-25% linkage no more no less) - Punch - Godlike block damage given enough space to benefit from punch & as large a waffle grid as possible (I would say at least a 10-15k block weapon system), requires close range, low missile slave linkage gives an extra beam without sacrificing much damage & keeping a relatively tight firing grid, looks really flashy and can punch huge holes.

    Missile - Pulse - Ion - Near useless at long range unless your target is very slow to take off or has no AMS/low thrust, but makes an insane shield popper for smaller ships in the heavy fighter to light cruiser range, a rush into close range followed by a hit from one of these from a small/fast ship with a higher power cap will make ships even 10x your size or more shit a brick.

    Cannon - Beam - Punch - Keep a tight circular grid pattern with shots also layered back to back a few times, use this for hunting down the rail connectors and computers on well armored targets, most useful if you're mobile enough to stay close despite having great range, could definitely be subbed for more computers with pulse instead of beam.

    Cannon/Beam - Cannon - Overdrive - Swarmy drones with just this, in single outputs, is really really really brutal, with good thrust small ships chase very well, aim well with one/few outputs and gain a huge bonus to shields via overdrive while retaining decent block damage.

    Cannon - Cannon - Stop/Pull/Push - pure number of hits seems to do much better on momentum effects than the size of the hit, so a huge cheap wafflegrid of these suits a double purpose of CCing your opponent while being useable as a forward anti missile system.
     
    Joined
    Mar 31, 2016
    Messages
    455
    Reaction score
    59
    Dumbfire missiles may also be useful.
    A setup like Missile-Cannon-Overdrive for maximum firerate and effect per shot. Just burn the ships down. Must be used on a vessel at maximum cruiser size, because you have to be able to track. I think a big waffle would be best, but a few larger outputs may also be good.