PvP Anti-Player Research

    FlyingDebris

    Vaygr loves my warhead bat.
    Joined
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages
    2,458
    Reaction score
    1,312
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Councillor Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    I'd suggest you keep the entity count as low as possible to reduce lag and to give swarm missiles less places to lock onto you.

    Keep a few very powerful turrets, maybe one or two smaller ones, and ten or fifteen point defense turrets, and you should be about good.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    What's the best combination of effects/secondaries and ratios for AI turrets meant to deal block damage to enemy ships of most sizes over fighter class?
     
    Last edited:

    nightrune

    Wizard/Developer/Project Manager
    Joined
    May 11, 2015
    Messages
    1,324
    Reaction score
    577
    • Schine
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Thinking Positive
    Great thread guys. It's especially useful to someone like me that's been primarily an RP builder.
     

    Crashmaster

    I got N64 problems but a bitch ain't one
    Joined
    Oct 18, 2013
    Messages
    452
    Reaction score
    360
    I don't know crap for PVP since the Titansphere so I find this thread quite helpful as well.

    I've been making much larger turrets; 14k weapon blocks on a 43 block diameter base and the medium at 7900 weapon blocks on a 37 block diameter base.
     

    StormWing0

    Leads the Storm
    Joined
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages
    2,126
    Reaction score
    316
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    lol and onward from 3 pages it goes. :P Keep it up guys. :)
     

    Reilly Reese

    #1 Top Forum Poster & Raiben Jackpot Winner
    Joined
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages
    5,140
    Reaction score
    1,365
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    What's the best combination of effects/secondaries and ratios for AI turrets meant to deal block damage to enemy ships of most sizes over fighter class?
    I'd try punch-through. Turrets start making swisscheese of systems very well.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Alright, that's a place to start. I've started by making an ion beam turret. Then I'll change the modules and voila, instant different turret.
     

    Edymnion

    Carebear Extraordinaire!
    Joined
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages
    2,709
    Reaction score
    1,512
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Oh, and remember to not mix and match weapon types and speeds on your turrets.

    The AI is actually much better at leading shots than any player I've seen, but since it fires all of it's weapon computers at the same time, it can get confused by weapons with different travel times. For example, a cannon shot takes time to fly out and hit a target, a beam hits it instantly. So the cannon has to fire in front of where the target is going (lead the shot) to make sure it hits, while a beam has to be fired straight at it. A turret with a cannon and a beam won't know where to aim because those two targeting strategies conflict.

    So if you're going to mix and match weapons on a single turret, try to make sure that their method of travel (instant vs. delayed) and the travel time of the projectile match.

    Weapon Systems - StarMade Wiki

    So you could mix a cannon with a cannon/cannon on one turret and it will be fine, they both have a projectile speed of 10x ship speed. Mixing Cannon/Cannon with Missile/Cannon would be bad, because the missiles travel at ~6x speed, and hence need a larger lead to hit.

    Related note, the speed at which a projectile travels (cannon bullets, missiles, etc) is based on the maximum speed of the ship firing it. The slower the ship, the slower the projectiles. For turrets, it doesn't mean much, the AI compensates by leading the shot more. For manual fire, it means a titan has to shoot farther ahead of the target than a fighter with the same setup does.

    Also means titan missiles are slow as christmas, and slow missiles are easier to shoot down with point defense.

    Missile/Pulse might give you the highest damage per shot, and being a smart missile means you don't have to worry about the aim, but it travels at 2/3rds the max speed of your ship. Which pretty much means anything can outrun it if it tries. On a big slow titan, you could practically outrun the thing with a brisk jog in astronaut mode. :P

    Final note, all combinations for a given weapon work out to the exact same DPS and power requirements, so there is no "strongest combination" overall. A combination that does 10x the damage costs 10x the energy up front to fire, and takes 10x longer to reload, so it all balances out.

    But there is a hidden tradeoff. Big damage combinations (like X/Pulse) suck huge amounts of energy up front, meaning you need large banks of capacitors to hold the charge for them. Fast combinations (like X/Cannon) cost almost nothing per shot in energy, and hence can mostly draw from raw energy per second generation of the ship.

    Which basically makes Missile/Pulse pretty worthless, IMO. Only the slowest of ships will be able to afford the power to fire it in the first place, and it will be so ungodly slow that unless you are firing off near server breaking amounts of decoy missiles, there's just no way in hell the pulse missile shot will connect if they have any PDTs left at all.
     

    Crashmaster

    I got N64 problems but a bitch ain't one
    Joined
    Oct 18, 2013
    Messages
    452
    Reaction score
    360
    I do not think projectile additive velocity works that way.
     

    Reilly Reese

    #1 Top Forum Poster & Raiben Jackpot Winner
    Joined
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages
    5,140
    Reaction score
    1,365
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    Oh, and remember to not mix and match weapon types and speeds on your turrets.

    The AI is actually much better at leading shots than any player I've seen, but since it fires all of it's weapon computers at the same time, it can get confused by weapons with different travel times. For example, a cannon shot takes time to fly out and hit a target, a beam hits it instantly. So the cannon has to fire in front of where the target is going (lead the shot) to make sure it hits, while a beam has to be fired straight at it. A turret with a cannon and a beam won't know where to aim because those two targeting strategies conflict.

    So if you're going to mix and match weapons on a single turret, try to make sure that their method of travel (instant vs. delayed) and the travel time of the projectile match.

    Weapon Systems - StarMade Wiki

    So you could mix a cannon with a cannon/cannon on one turret and it will be fine, they both have a projectile speed of 10x ship speed. Mixing Cannon/Cannon with Missile/Cannon would be bad, because the missiles travel at ~6x speed, and hence need a larger lead to hit.

    Related note, the speed at which a projectile travels (cannon bullets, missiles, etc) is based on the maximum speed of the ship firing it. The slower the ship, the slower the projectiles. For turrets, it doesn't mean much, the AI compensates by leading the shot more. For manual fire, it means a titan has to shoot farther ahead of the target than a fighter with the same setup does.

    Also means titan missiles are slow as christmas, and slow missiles are easier to shoot down with point defense.

    Missile/Pulse might give you the highest damage per shot, and being a smart missile means you don't have to worry about the aim, but it travels at 2/3rds the max speed of your ship. Which pretty much means anything can outrun it if it tries. On a big slow titan, you could practically outrun the thing with a brisk jog in astronaut mode. :p

    Final note, all combinations for a given weapon work out to the exact same DPS and power requirements, so there is no "strongest combination" overall. A combination that does 10x the damage costs 10x the energy up front to fire, and takes 10x longer to reload, so it all balances out.

    But there is a hidden tradeoff. Big damage combinations (like X/Pulse) suck huge amounts of energy up front, meaning you need large banks of capacitors to hold the charge for them. Fast combinations (like X/Cannon) cost almost nothing per shot in energy, and hence can mostly draw from raw energy per second generation of the ship.

    Which basically makes Missile/Pulse pretty worthless, IMO. Only the slowest of ships will be able to afford the power to fire it in the first place, and it will be so ungodly slow that unless you are firing off near server breaking amounts of decoy missiles, there's just no way in hell the pulse missile shot will connect if they have any PDTs left at all.

    ^ That amazing ship utilizes very fast pulse + overdrive missiles. Your post is wrong.
     

    Indigo Slimez

    Almighty Glorious Overlord
    Joined
    Feb 13, 2016
    Messages
    164
    Reaction score
    27
    Oh, and remember to not mix and match weapon types and speeds on your turrets.

    The AI is actually much better at leading shots than any player I've seen, but since it fires all of it's weapon computers at the same time, it can get confused by weapons with different travel times. For example, a cannon shot takes time to fly out and hit a target, a beam hits it instantly. So the cannon has to fire in front of where the target is going (lead the shot) to make sure it hits, while a beam has to be fired straight at it. A turret with a cannon and a beam won't know where to aim because those two targeting strategies conflict.

    So if you're going to mix and match weapons on a single turret, try to make sure that their method of travel (instant vs. delayed) and the travel time of the projectile match.

    Weapon Systems - StarMade Wiki

    So you could mix a cannon with a cannon/cannon on one turret and it will be fine, they both have a projectile speed of 10x ship speed. Mixing Cannon/Cannon with Missile/Cannon would be bad, because the missiles travel at ~6x speed, and hence need a larger lead to hit.

    Related note, the speed at which a projectile travels (cannon bullets, missiles, etc) is based on the maximum speed of the ship firing it. The slower the ship, the slower the projectiles. For turrets, it doesn't mean much, the AI compensates by leading the shot more. For manual fire, it means a titan has to shoot farther ahead of the target than a fighter with the same setup does.

    Also means titan missiles are slow as christmas, and slow missiles are easier to shoot down with point defense.

    Missile/Pulse might give you the highest damage per shot, and being a smart missile means you don't have to worry about the aim, but it travels at 2/3rds the max speed of your ship. Which pretty much means anything can outrun it if it tries. On a big slow titan, you could practically outrun the thing with a brisk jog in astronaut mode. :p

    Final note, all combinations for a given weapon work out to the exact same DPS and power requirements, so there is no "strongest combination" overall. A combination that does 10x the damage costs 10x the energy up front to fire, and takes 10x longer to reload, so it all balances out.

    But there is a hidden tradeoff. Big damage combinations (like X/Pulse) suck huge amounts of energy up front, meaning you need large banks of capacitors to hold the charge for them. Fast combinations (like X/Cannon) cost almost nothing per shot in energy, and hence can mostly draw from raw energy per second generation of the ship.

    Which basically makes Missile/Pulse pretty worthless, IMO. Only the slowest of ships will be able to afford the power to fire it in the first place, and it will be so ungodly slow that unless you are firing off near server breaking amounts of decoy missiles, there's just no way in hell the pulse missile shot will connect if they have any PDTs left at all.
    Then wouldn't it be logical to shoot off said pd turrets before fireing the missile?
     
    Joined
    Dec 5, 2014
    Messages
    113
    Reaction score
    36
    @ Edymnion: Missile speed is based on server max speed afaik

    edit: just tested with a tiny ship. speed for missiles was exactly the same with no thrusters on the test ship and with a 2.5:1 thrust mass ratio.

    edit 2: @ topic:

    lots of good advice was given by DrTardis imo. you want basic hull as a cheap/light way to support the adv armor and add to the AP pool. Otherwise, the adv armor simply isnt efficient enough.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    The problem is, cannons and even lighter missiles can't necessarily provide the one-punch knockout that you want to deliver when facing MANY enemy ships. Plus, the scare factor on a 10 million damage output nuke is....well.....effective. Nobody's taking their cruiser near the one-shot machine, at least not most people.
    That said, if you're worried about maneuverable enemies, use a faster-moving and faster-firing weapon. If you want to kill larger/similar-sized ships, get a weapon with high damage output and spread, such as a nuke, as the final strike after volleys of smaller missiles or cannon rounds meant to destroy armor.
     

    Top 4ce

    Force or Ace?
    Joined
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages
    527
    Reaction score
    274
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 9
    I'm just going to jump in with an easy to implement idea. Put a one block Missile/Missile/Stop system in your AMS turrets. It makes good distraction missiles that activate the second enemy missiles are they're way. It will also continue to fire while you're AMS turrets are working. The stop prevents any accidents, since the swarmers won't do much damage anyway. It's 6 blocks and easy to do.
     
    Last edited:

    FlyingDebris

    Vaygr loves my warhead bat.
    Joined
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages
    2,458
    Reaction score
    1,312
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Councillor Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    Oh, and remember to not mix and match weapon types and speeds on your turrets.

    The AI is actually much better at leading shots than any player I've seen, but since it fires all of it's weapon computers at the same time, it can get confused by weapons with different travel times. For example, a cannon shot takes time to fly out and hit a target, a beam hits it instantly. So the cannon has to fire in front of where the target is going (lead the shot) to make sure it hits, while a beam has to be fired straight at it. A turret with a cannon and a beam won't know where to aim because those two targeting strategies conflict.

    So if you're going to mix and match weapons on a single turret, try to make sure that their method of travel (instant vs. delayed) and the travel time of the projectile match.

    Weapon Systems - StarMade Wiki

    So you could mix a cannon with a cannon/cannon on one turret and it will be fine, they both have a projectile speed of 10x ship speed. Mixing Cannon/Cannon with Missile/Cannon would be bad, because the missiles travel at ~6x speed, and hence need a larger lead to hit.

    Related note, the speed at which a projectile travels (cannon bullets, missiles, etc) is based on the maximum speed of the ship firing it. The slower the ship, the slower the projectiles. For turrets, it doesn't mean much, the AI compensates by leading the shot more. For manual fire, it means a titan has to shoot farther ahead of the target than a fighter with the same setup does.

    Also means titan missiles are slow as christmas, and slow missiles are easier to shoot down with point defense.

    Missile/Pulse might give you the highest damage per shot, and being a smart missile means you don't have to worry about the aim, but it travels at 2/3rds the max speed of your ship. Which pretty much means anything can outrun it if it tries. On a big slow titan, you could practically outrun the thing with a brisk jog in astronaut mode. :p

    Final note, all combinations for a given weapon work out to the exact same DPS and power requirements, so there is no "strongest combination" overall. A combination that does 10x the damage costs 10x the energy up front to fire, and takes 10x longer to reload, so it all balances out.

    But there is a hidden tradeoff. Big damage combinations (like X/Pulse) suck huge amounts of energy up front, meaning you need large banks of capacitors to hold the charge for them. Fast combinations (like X/Cannon) cost almost nothing per shot in energy, and hence can mostly draw from raw energy per second generation of the ship.

    Which basically makes Missile/Pulse pretty worthless, IMO. Only the slowest of ships will be able to afford the power to fire it in the first place, and it will be so ungodly slow that unless you are firing off near server breaking amounts of decoy missiles, there's just no way in hell the pulse missile shot will connect if they have any PDTs left at all.
    Alternatively, you could use a waffled missile-pulse and have a high thrust to weight ratio. Missile pulse is useful, but only if you know what you're doing when you design the ship or if the other guy didn't know what he was doing when he designed his.
     

    Edymnion

    Carebear Extraordinaire!
    Joined
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages
    2,709
    Reaction score
    1,512
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    @ Edymnion: Missile speed is based on server max speed afaik
    Ah, well I learned something new today then. :)

    I always thought it was based on ship speed after the thruster update, not server default max.
     
    Joined
    Feb 25, 2016
    Messages
    1,362
    Reaction score
    268
    Yeah, why would it be based on ship max? That'd make it difficult for titans to defend against fighters.
     

    Edymnion

    Carebear Extraordinaire!
    Joined
    Mar 18, 2015
    Messages
    2,709
    Reaction score
    1,512
    • Purchased!
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Yeah yeah, I must have missread it wrong long ago and it made sense that small fast fighters would shoot faster than lumbering giants. Should have known I was wrong when it meant a fighter was better at something than a cruiser. ;)