PvP Anti-Player Research

[Az14el]

If im that close i tend to just point blank dumbfire my lock ons (i bring a lot of individual computers) as long as their forward facing, but missile-cannon-pierce would be very powerful for a smaller vessel that can outmaneuver while easily tracking their target up close. But at the same time you need enough size to have a decent waffle grid with missiles powerful enough to actually utilize their effects meaningfully (pierce is usually most efficient at this, even very small damage hits can be useful with enough repetition, within reason)

A logic fired set up for close range brawling would be nice, but swarmers are oddly more reliable once you get to super close range as a logic weapon

Don't really like overdrive on missiles except for missile-pulse-overdrive on very small ships.

 

[StarWars1981]

Eh, if you've got power to burn, overdrive is very good at that, and gives a nice bonus to power while you're at it.

Once you get to super close brawling range, bring a man-o'-war looking ship with a logic broadside and just let rip. It'll be cooler. And also, if you build it right, may be effective. Fly alongside Titan, shoot other Titan with main weapons, broadside close Titan with secondaries, and also, pray he doesn't find you.
Or pop a supersized heatseeker swarm of approx. 1000 (effectively) block missiles that heatseek and swarm and blow you to pieces while still being supersized and rocket-y.
Redundant Department of Redundancy Downstairs in the Basement Below the First Floor.
Yay!

 

[AtraUnam]

This thread started out as good ideas and now its devolving into 'use a bigger gun'

 

[Madman198237]

Hey, using a bigger gun is ALWAYS better for PvP.


If at first you don't succeed, come back later with a bigger weapon.

 

[Az14el]

I prefer to bring more numerous little guns so i can be a bit more discriminatory with how i use my power stores
As for the really big guns, Ion weapons, Logic Swarmer Systems & Punch weapons all benefit pretty much indefinitely from system size, with the exception of ion and keeping in mind what a realistic amount of shielding/regen for an enemy to actually have is.

If it's pretty much anything else then personally i find it better to split up into many smaller systems

As far as weapon sizes/appropriate effects (can't really say this applies to every weapon system but has been a reliable rule of thumb for me)

5-250 block TOTAL size - Overdrive
5-500 block group - Pierce
500-2000 block group - ehhxplosive
2000+ block group - Punch

Ion of course can be used at any size over 250 total (any less and overdrive is just better so long as you can sustain it), one output per computer is best in most cases for this effect (Ion missiles with several outputs can be desirable as insurance against AMS turrets)

-Source; the most hated admin in the universe, iron fist of the now ded mikelands server, and an extremely knowledgeable player. Plus some of my own revisions since the latest weapons patch.

 

[Edymnion]

This thread started out as good ideas and now its devolving into 'use a bigger gun'

"Have a bigger gun than the other guy" has been basic military tactics since... the dawn of human warfare.

Who has the bigger rock, the stronger bow, the bigger gun.

There's a reason people fly big ships, and its not entirely about looking cooler. Bigger ships = bigger guns = better ability to kill the other guy.

 

[Az14el]

"Have a bigger gun than the other guy" has been basic military tactics since... the dawn of human warfare.

Who has the bigger rock, the stronger bow, the bigger gun.

There's a reason people fly big ships, and its not entirely about looking cooler. Bigger ships = bigger guns = better ability to kill the other guy.

Until your nice capital ship gets caught joyriding by something like a vaygr cyclops or other strong alpha damage destroyer type.
The Alpha damage potentials reachable let you pose a serious danger to a much larger ship given good range & angle. Momentum effects can comfortably control a larger ship with decent size/outputs and jump inhibitors can at the very least slow down their retreat should they choose to. Decent missile-beam-anything turrets on the other hand can kinda tie up smaller snipers/destroyers really damn well nowadays too.

Still totally viable to employ hit and run tactics against vastly larger vessels in a well made ship, just don't necessarily expect a kill in that case.

 

[Edymnion]

Until your nice capital ship gets caught joyriding by something like a vaygr cyclops or other strong alpha damage destroyer type.
The Alpha damage potentials reachable let you pose a serious danger to a much larger ship given good range & angle. Momentum effects can comfortably control a larger ship with decent size/outputs and jump inhibitors can at the very least slow down their retreat should they choose to. Decent missile-beam-anything turrets on the other hand can kinda tie up smaller snipers/destroyers really damn well nowadays too.

Still totally viable to employ hit and run tactics against vastly larger vessels in a well made ship, just don't necessarily expect a kill in that case.

That doesn't invalidate my point.

You're never going to get a 100 mass fighter that can even dent the shields of a titan. You absolutely must have a larger ship to physically hold the blocks required for a weapon big enough to overcome the other guy's defenses. Or you must have an overwhelming number of smaller ships that can put down enough steady fire to slowly whittle the defenses away.

"Bring a bigger gun" is always going to be the simplest, easiest answer though. Not necessarily the BEST answer, but the easiest.

 

[Keptick]

Which is frankly a pretty meaningless caveat.

An astronaut with the default laser pistol can single handed destroy a titan that doesn't have "proper defenses" (like shields).

He meant it in the sense that the ship wouldn't have any suitable anti-fighter defenses. Seriosuly, that wasn't hard to understand... Shields are used on all ships, no matter the specialization (or at least they should), so what you said about astronauts is a non-issue.

Keep in mind that a large ship packing anti-fighter weapons like small turrets and swarms wouldn't be as effective as a purely ship destruction oriented ship of the same size. It would get wrecked in a fight against a similar ship only packing anti-ship weapons since that one would have better system ratios for direct capital ship combat.

In a sense there's a sort of rock-paper scisors thing going on here. Drone swarm > Anti-ship ship > Anti-fighter ship > Drone swarm. Then ofc there's everything in between.

 

[Edymnion]

He meant it in the sense that the ship wouldn't have any suitable anti-fighter defenses.

Which to me is the same as saying "Doesn't have point defense".

If you're in a ship large enough that you can't maneuver it to target a fighter with a fixed weapon, I rather thought it was assumed you would have turrets capable of taking down smaller craft. To me, the idea of being in a large ship without anti-fighter turrets is right there with being in a ship without shields, you're lacking a vital part of your defense.

 

[Keptick]

Which to me is the same as saying "Doesn't have point defense".

If you're in a ship large enough that you can't maneuver it to target a fighter with a fixed weapon, I rather thought it was assumed you would have turrets capable of taking down smaller craft. To me, the idea of being in a large ship without anti-fighter turrets is right there with being in a ship without shields, you're lacking a vital part of your defense.

Turrets aren't that great against fighter swarms. If the turrets are too small, they get shot to pieces as soon as the ship's shields go down enough. If they're too big, they might survive the onslaught but will be innefficient (mass/wise) and would be better used against larger ships (not to mention that you'd have less because of the size restraints). In my experience, heat seekers are much MUCH better at taking out drones swarms, and they don't get shreded like turrets. The best is generally to have both, actually, turrets alone usually can't handle a drone swarm even a fraction of the ship's mass. My point is that you might have point defense, but it probably wouldn't be enough to handle an actual combat drone swarm. Therefore, if "suitable defenses" isn't met it doesn't mean "no defenses".

Btw, this is assuming that the swarm's damage would be higher than the ship's regen (otherwise you don't even need to kill the swarm).

 

[Malacodor]

Turrets aren't that great against fighter swarms. If the turrets are too small, they get shot to pieces as soon as the ship's shields go down enough. If they're too big, they might survive the onslaught but will be innefficient (mass/wise) and would be better used against larger ships (not to mention that you'd have less because of the size restraints). In my experience, heat seekers are much MUCH better at taking out drones swarms, and they don't get shreded like turrets. The best is generally to have both, actually, turrets alone usually can't handle a drone swarm even a fraction of the ship's mass.

Btw, this is assuming that the swarm's damage would be higher than the ship's regen (otherwise you don't even need to kill the swarm).

Do swarm-missiles still target allies?

 

[Keptick]

Do swarm-missiles still target allies?

Yes. So if there's allies in the area and your turrets can't handle the drone swarm you're screwed :P

 

[Malacodor]

Yes. So if there's allies in the area and your turrets can't handle the drone swarm you're screwed :p

Or the allies. :p

 

[Edymnion]

Btw, this is assuming that the swarm's damage would be higher than the ship's regen (otherwise you don't even need to kill the swarm).

Well yeah, if the swarm couldn't do enough damage to drop the shields, then the turrets would never be exposed and could easily pick them off.

And I do agree that heatseekers are ideal for drone swarms. My own ships carry them for just that reason.

Just to clear up any miscommunication, when I say fighter (which was the original jumping off point) I'm referring to something in the Isanth range, not a 25 mass drone.

I just considered it to be basic turret use that you have staggered layers of turrets. Tiny point defense for missiles, small turrets for drones/fighters, intermediary turrets for medium sized ships, and a couple of BFGs for large opponents (on a titan). The things are big, slow, and measure their turning ability in days/sectors. I thought it would be generally assumed that your primary offensive capability would be turrets, and that you would have turrets to handle multiple types of opponent.

Hence my response in vein of "Well if you say you don't have standard defenses, then anything can beat a titan".

 

[Keptick]

Well yeah, if the swarm couldn't do enough damage to drop the shields, then the turrets would never be exposed and could easily pick them off.

And I do agree that heatseekers are ideal for drone swarms. My own ships carry them for just that reason.

Just to clear up any miscommunication, when I say fighter (which was the original jumping off point) I'm referring to something in the Isanth range, not a 25 mass drone.

I just considered it to be basic turret use that you have staggered layers of turrets. Tiny point defense for missiles, small turrets for drones/fighters, intermediary turrets for medium sized ships, and a couple of BFGs for large opponents (on a titan). The things are big, slow, and measure their turning ability in days/sectors. I thought it would be generally assumed that your primary offensive capability would be turrets, and that you would have turrets to handle multiple types of opponent.

Hence my response in vein of "Well if you say you don't have standard defenses, then anything can beat a titan".

I don't have having anti-fighter turrets on my titan, in addition to PD, anti-frigate and anti-capital turrets. The turret lag is already more than enough.

Instead I just carry a drone swarm of my own hehehe >:-D

 

[Edymnion]

I don't have having anti-fighter turrets on my titan, in addition to PD, anti-frigate and anti-capital turrets. The turret lag is already more than enough.

Instead I just carry a drone swarm of my own hehehe >:-D

Ah, there's our disconnect then.

But either way, you still have an anti-fighter defense, you just shifted it from turrets to drones.

You aren't taking a lone titan into a fight completely incapable of taking out a fighter at all.

 

[Keptick]

Ah, there's our disconnect then.

But either way, you still have an anti-fighter defense, you just shifted it from turrets to drones.

You aren't taking a lone titan into a fight completely incapable of taking out a fighter at all.

Of course, but I could still see a use for ships with not anti-fighter defenses. So for example the damage dealers in fleet ops, or even just taking on normal ships.

The advantage of having drones instead of anti-fighter turrets is that they can be used for offensive purpose, guard duty and remote attacks. I guess it all comes down to preference, since turrets have some advantages as well (like main ship shielding).

 

[Madman198237]

Part of this came up in the Drone Wars competition thread for season 2. The metrics and ideas behind big ship vs. little ship and the relative efficiencies.

The end result is that small ships are more efficient than large ships, because a fleet of 10 small ships made of a grand total of 1000 blocks can lose up to 949 blocks before being completely useless with the loss of a single block. A large ship made of 1000 blocks can become completely useless after losing just 500 blocks, because the remaining 500, unlike the 100 left after 9 ships die in the first group, do not get a chance to continue fighting.

Because: Fighter A loses 50 blocks, dies, losing a grand total of 100 blocks. B repeats, and so on through I. Drone J now has all 100 still-functioning blocks, and can lose 49 before #50 takes it out.
The big ship can ONLY lose 499 blocks, or because block #500 to die will take with it blocks #501-#1000. Inefficiency, right?

 

[Edymnion]

Inefficiency, right?

Well, depends on your definition of efficiency. By that metric, yes.

By another, the larger ship uses the same number of blocks and can be respawned into action in a single click, as opposed to either 10 clicks for the fighters or 2 clicks (1 to spawn, one to eject them from the rack, which would itself increase inefficiency by having to build a rack every time).

The larger ship also would have greater shielding, meaning there would be encounters where you would lose at least one fighter where the larger ship walks away from unscratched due to the opponent never getting through their shields.

So yeah, fighters are more efficient in a losing scenario in that they can technically hang in the fight longer, but they're much higher cost on maintenance and upkeep. Plus, while the 1000 block ship might die at only 500 blocks damage, it stays at nearly full capacity until that point. 499 blocks worth of 100 block fighters means you've cut their fighting power in half, where its quite possible the 1000 block ship is still firing at full power at that point.