NPC update resources and maintenance now give live economies?

[Jojomo]

I was just rereading the NPC update news item and noticed some bits I skimmed over the first time.
They look boring at first but they could have very exciting implications. such as a working economy, which would also mean natural reasons to DO things (any things: trade, fight, expand, etc)

Here are the sections:

Resources and Mining
Systems now have a resource richness. This amount is hidden at the moment but will actually be reflected by spawned asteroids in an upcoming universe revamp. The factions will use their contingent to mine resources from their territory. The amount of resources they can mine is limited and will reflect on what the player actually sees when they go there. For example, if a system is mined out, there will be no more asteroids spawning. The npcConfig can define a resource replenish value if needed.

Maintenance
To counteract the introduction of countless blocks into the universe and to have a simple controller for NPC factions in general, they will consume general maintenance blocks per turn according to their config. This allows for an effective way to steer the growth behavior of NPC factions without touching other areas such as trading and production.

I'm not an expert in economics (not even slightly), and it's possible also that I may even be misunderstanding what I'm reading, but it sounds like asteroids will no longer respawn and NPC maintenance will create a continuous "flow" of blocks/resources from creation to oblivion.

This sounds to me like the core of a real "live", functioning, self-perpetuating economy.

I'd love to hear from people who know what they're talking about when it comes to economics, people like MacThule.

Am I right? Will this kick-start actual economies on servers?
Why?/Why not?

If not, will admins altering resource and maintenance values in server configs make it so this can kick-start economies on servers?
Why?/Why not?

 

[Tamren Shade]

Yeah, I think this will do it. It takes a resource in game, consumes it, and returns credits.

I was watching Lenscap on youtube during my lunch break earlier tonight. He was doing a little trading and a little piracy. The trade guild gave him very sizable chunk of money for a large stockpile of crystal composite. Right before he flew over to their territory with a small fleet of privateers and took down a mining fleet and a defense fleet or two .

Even if his pirate raid cost him at least one ship and he got missiled to death during a boarding action by friendly fire , I had an Ah-Ha moment where the actuality of how much more interesting Starmade has just gotten with the last update really sunk into my thick skull

 

[BravoHotel]

I don't think the made asteroids non-renewable. They tried that once and had to return it. It essentially made mining fleets or mining worthless. Since you can just hop into the core and build block all the resources of a destroyed ship. It would inevitably destroy mining factions, Like the one I had when they first made them non-renewable.

If they did so this would no longer be a sandbox game where you can be what you want. It would be a space combat game. I think all they did was add rarity of resources to certain regions so that trade is forced. Like sertise only spawns on the west side of the galaxy etc.

 

[Jojomo]

I don't think the made asteroids non-renewable. They tried that once and had to return it. It essentially made mining fleets or mining worthless. Since you can just hop into the core and build block all the resources of a destroyed ship. It would inevitably destroy mining factions, Like the one I had when they first made them non-renewable.

If they did so this would no longer be a sandbox game where you can be what you want. It would be a space combat game. I think all they did was add rarity of resources to certain regions so that trade is forced. Like sertise only spawns on the west side of the galaxy etc.

You could be right, I honestly wouldn't know.
Even partial rarity of resources would be a big improvement.

What do they mean by this though: "For example, if a system is mined out, there will be no more asteroids spawning."

 

[BravoHotel]

"The amount of resources they can mine is limited and will reflect on what the player actually sees when they go there. For example, if a system is mined out, there will be no more asteroids spawning. The npcConfig can define a resource replenish value if needed."

Im assuming what they mean is that as they mine the area (while you're offline or busy) the system would have a set number of resource numbers. This way the sector doesn't need to be loaded, so a pool of 1.52m/1.7m kind of counter. That as they mine you could visit the sector and see asteroids gone. Then your fleet would move onto the next system.

Over time that pool would replenish, with the rate of replenishment being configurable. Of course you could be right but I don't forsee a server keeping their config default to no respawns. 3-4 factions could mine out a galaxy in a week lol.

 

[jayman38]

My interpretation of the asteroid clause above:
As long as the resource "richness" variable of a system is more than zero, new asteroids will spawn when old ones are mined out. Every asteroid that is spawned will reduce the resource "richness" value of the system. Once the value hits zero, no more asteroid spawning. If there's no more "richness", you have to move on to another system to get more asteroids.

This clause indicates that different systems will have different starting values, so some systems might dry up much sooner than others.

I certainly hope that the default vanilla game will set a resource renewal value greater than zero around the spawn sector, to allow the "richness" to build up over time in spawn, so that eventually, spawn will always generate a nearby asteroid for new players to mine. Generally, I'd like to think a 125-sector-total, 5-sector-wide "cube" of sectors, centered on the spawn sector, would be sufficient. Maybe remove the 8 outermost corners of the cube, for a 117-sector regenerating sphere around spawn.

 

[aRottenKomquat]

I have asteroid respawn set at 24 hours on my server. Will this affect NPC faction mining?

 

[Jojomo]

I went to the update thread to ask for clarification, and found someone had already asked about it., and Lancake has answered

In short:
The resource richness variable just means one/some type(s) of asteroids will be rarer.more common than others in a given system. An excellent change!

Asteroids still respawn, but NPCs can't just mine them as fast as they respawn....I still don't understand this fully yet.

Any way, will this, or could this if tweaked correctly, cause properly functioning economies to form on servers?

 

[BravoHotel]

To be honest, it probably won't resources are entirely too easy to get. The only way to kickstart and economy is to make paying for items outweight the grind and/or adding rare items that can be purchased. Right now its still entirely too easy to send my fleets on mass mining trips for me to want to purchase anything

 

[Tamren Shade]

To be honest, it probably won't resources are entirely too easy to get. The only way to kickstart and economy is to make paying for items outweight the grind and/or adding rare items that can be purchased. Right now its still entirely too easy to send my fleets on mass mining trips for me to want to purchase anything

I think part of the the solution to this is to properly incorporate buying and selling entire ships. I can go out, acquire the resources, and then spend the time to fill up the BP for a 25K mass destroyer I'd like to have on hand. Depending on the block count, my stockpile, and just how many different block types I incorporated into the design, I could have that ship up and running anywhere between 15 minutes or two hours.

But if I can purchase it outright and then have either the ship, the blocks, or the filled blueprint delivered to me, that is a lot faster, and I can spend that time doing something else. People are absolutely willing to spend money to have things faster .

 

[nightrune]

I wasn't aware of any mechanic for systems to degrade over time. This could be but it would slowly push people out of systems. Which sounds fun but it sure doesn't incentvise building structures in locations. I think its designed to give some systems more of a reason to be the one you take and try to keep.

 

[MacThule]

...will admins altering resource and maintenance values in server configs make it so this can kick-start economies on servers?

As I see it, this is closest to the situation, though it will take months of testing for us to really know. Reason: it certainly lays a strong groundwork for a robust, living economy to develop, and possibly more importantly shows the interest of the developers in seeing such a dynamic mature in the relatively near future. This uplate in itself will almost certainly NOT result in such an economy on its own if for no other reason than because it's brand new and I doubt the developers have too much more idea than we do how to achieve an in-game reality as near-mythical as a legit economy that operates like an ecosystem.

I think they are approaching it from a very good direction though, and stand an excellent chance of success. Just seeing the direction they have taken with regards to the economy has put much of my discontent and concern in that area to rest, even if proper results take a year of bug-hunting, fine-tuning, and perhaps even a few major adjustments.

Your thread title caught my eye instantly, because during the build-up to release this was actually some of the most exciting stuff I was seeing in the development communications. NPC ships and stations are little more than decorations, perhaps good target practice or farming material at best. Basing them on actual resources and tying it all into a trade network with ships and convoys... even Eve doesn't have this - their trade network magicked orders to and from with just a time delay last I checked.

It's deeply ambitious, in a good way, I think.

So generally, "yes," along the current trajectory if we all test the economy and report our bugs and discuss our dynamic experiences, and the servads experiment with different economic configuration values in MP, this will likely result in a real economy over time. Especially once convoys and other aspects of NPC activity are released and have time to mature.

...If they did so this would no longer be a sandbox game where you can be what you want. It would be a space combat game...

I agree with your assessment that asteroid respawn is NOT being eliminated again, but had to comment on this part of your post, because for as long as the economy remains broken, this really is just about design and combat. Build space-goodies then blow them up. Because without a functioning economy, being a miner only has simply not been a feasible long-term strategy, nor has trading or exploration. Without functioning economy players can't properly liquidate their efforts in these areas to exchange for goods and services of others at reasonable rates. As you mention later, nothing is worth not just mining, refining, manufacting and assembling your own parts - essentially being your own 1-player, island economy. So to date we really have NOT been able to "do-anything", we have all been forced to be jacks of all trades, but with an organic economy, including regional resource richnesses and scarcities, this may change completely.

Addition of proper whole-ship sales functionality (not coincidentally mentioned further down this thread by Tamren Shade ) is likely to be another fundamental component in seeing a true economy come to life in Starmade, and I think we should all be pushing for this. If it can be implemented with a system to use existing shipyard systems to permit virtual test-drives before making push-button, GUI-driven ship purchases with cash, so much the better. If it could also somehow be directly linked to a short list of high-rated, Schine or Council verified ship models from the content section here (or an iteration of the site's content database hosted in and accessed by servers from another location) - better still.

Making ships feasible to buy whole for credits through the GUI with the click of a button and a confirmation dialogue would just drastically increase the applied and popular value of the in-game credits. Combined with a live economy, players might find themselves truly able play as miners, traders, explorers, pirates, engineers, shopkeepers, shipmakers, combat pilots, coaliton leaders or galactic emperors in fact, rather than simply in name.
[doublepost=1482915366,1482914689][/doublepost]And let's just go ahead and include that it would probably be great if NPC factions could e allowed to choose to sell their own ship models as well (if doing so fit their personalities)!

Their ships are just as real and they are already so tied into the emerging economy that not doing so would seem to be just missing additional opportunity for enriching the player experience potential and interactive feel of the NPC side of the universe.

 

[DragonSoul9000]

One main difference that I have noticed so far Jojomo is that before the NPC Update I was able to set the shop at 2 2 2 to infinite as soon as I started a new game. I would then buy around 85,000 units of a ore and sell it back to the shop thus making a easy 10 mil in credits as soon as I started the game. did this multiple time because I have the shops set to start with 100 mil in credits. This was to help provide the credit I would need for taking over a derelict or even just buying some supplies as I moved out into the void. I have a slower computer with a crappy video card so the void is the only place I can build without having a really low FPS.

Any ways now I can't do that the shops now have a supply and demand feature that limits how many of a specific item they will buy from you so trips to more than one shop is required to make the money required to repair a derelict. Now it could take me hours to make the same amount I used to make in about 2 minutes. In no way am I unhappy about this!!! That to me was cheating the system and taking away from the way the game is meant to be played.

I now have a better way of getting the credits for my endeavours. I just recently had the Traders buy some of my supplies for 313 million credits. and it took them about 25 minutes to get the cargo shipment. And every few minutes after that transaction they made another transaction so in about 4 hours I think they bought more than 500 million credits worth of goods. Thank god it was in SP, If I was in multiplayer that could have been the most lucrative raid anyone could have made on a Trade cargo ship.

So yes this NPC Update has definitely added an economic aspect to the game. it may not be perfect but it does even the playing field both in multiplayer and single player. Also before this update there was only one reason a player in SP had for a shop, and that was for getting blueprints. Now you have an incentive to get your shop up and running as ASAP.

 

[nokturnihs]

Problems with the economy: first there needs to be a place to buy and sell at large in a galactic market. As it is, the trade shops won't buy very much very often which breaks the crap out of the game for new players/games. Because we STILL can't put refineries or factories on ships (and are chained to stations/planets if we want to do our own Crafting, thus making exploration mostly a waste of time) it's makes starting that first station a bit of a mess. You can't sell much but you need a decent amount of credits for your own station. Yeah, you can use an asteroid, abandoned Station or planet to get your Crafting started early but that's a clunky start, and a boring one to some players.
You either need to change how people create stations or make a universal galactic market that is the intermediary between factions. It exists in 99% of most worlds fantasy or otherwise. That's the simplest solution. You can adjust prices based on sector control and supply/demand but the market/shops should ALWAYS be willing to buy, even if it's the worst deal you could make. Otherwise you're forcing us to do the Crafting thing all the time, and that's just not fun, also not what's on the tin.

Some other suggested changes that directly effect the economy.
Factory stations, custom shops and supply lines. If you want a diverse economy throw in Stations that you sell materials and they create custom items based on supply and demand. In the reverse, for a fee, players could go to these stations and get items constructed for them by providing the materials. This offers people the ability to not be bound to specific sectors, planets or stations and they can really explore. I'd say put these out there like shops, sprinkled about. If you don't want to do that, one solution: Crafting on our space ships. Period. We can Teleport matter and life using Teleportation, fold space and time using warp drives but we can't refine ore we've mined into other materials or finished products? If it's a space thing, make those factories huge. If it's a power thing, give it power consumption levels.

Basically, your factions update could be great. But more and more I feel like we're being forced into a single line of play style for at least a decent part of a new game. And the faction update and the break in how some of like to play (mine, sell, buy parts/ships then explore and eventually settle) emphasizes that message (which I hope is accidental).

Model your economy after the real world economy. Walmart will buy/resell just about anything it can make a penny on, and sells most common items. Local governments tax those sales and purchases and collect their revenue. Shopko also buys/sells similar products but offers competitive prices or alternative stock to get the foot traffic. In starmade using that principle, sector controlling factions grow faster the more traffic ran through the shops in said sector and in their own faction stores. Out in the deep black, unaffiliated sectors, its those greedy, greedy corporations keeping the extra cash taxes would normally generate. Who knows, maybe a greedy Corp will eventually earn enough cash to start their own faction and local government. Maybe player controlled factions get a small percentage of the purchases in their territory as well. When a supply line is cut, prices rise because supply can't meet demand.

Just some thoughts. Seriously though, listen to the above about Crafting too. I'm sure I'm going to get a bunch of crap for this post, because of the forums, but since three of you were quite polite in your request for feedback, I felt so inclined to respond.

 

[Jojomo]

Problems with the economy: first there needs to be a place to buy and sell at large in a galactic market.

I can't offer an expert opinion on this, but it seems to my layman eye that this would remove all location based economic activity and location based market pressures, which I think would be a terrible shame.
I suppose it's reasonable to assume it can be done, as it's been done before, but I feel like this would a very boring way(relatively) to get an economy up and running.

Model your economy after the real world economy.

I hope this happens too (to a practical and effective degree of accuracy), but this seems to be in conflict with your first point (that I replied to above).