Need Ideas for a PVP/Survival Ship Build Competition with prizes

[alterintel]

UPDATE:
Update on Judging Metric thoughts: (Just so you know, this contest WILL happen, I just want to get everything nailed down first)

So the Basic Idea of Contest: The most Offense + Defense that you can get on your ship per Resource Spent.
To get this competition rolling I'm willing to put up $100 USD of my own money for prizes.

Mechanic for Judging:
((EDSS + (EDES x SLES)) / RCp10K) x (1 +((C x CB)/RCp10K))

EDSS = Effective DPS of submitted Ship
EDES = Effective DPS of Enemy Ships
SLES = Seconds lasted against Enemy Ships
RCp10K = Resource Cost divided by 10,000
C = Number of Crewman
CB = Crew bonus

Resource Cost is determined by Megacrafter127's resource calculator. any extra Crystal Composites or Metal Meshes will be divided by 10
So what do I mean by Effective DPS? Well, I take a target with known hit points and shields and count how many seconds it takes your ship to overheat the core of the target.

I think we all can agree that with NPC's and NPC bonuses coming very soon they should at least be given some kind of weight in this contest. Ideally the judgement would be solely based on Offense and Defense per Resource Spent, but that will have to wait for after the NPC update is fully realized. So in the mean time the following is the way I think is the best way to measure how well NPC's will help your ship.

So the Basic Idea of Contest: The most Offense + Defense that you can get on your ship per Resource Spent. And working off of the assumption that NPCs will probably only give you a max of a 15% bonus, this will be the max bonus you can get for RP/Crew Space on your submitted ship. So now the sudo math is ((Offense + Defense)/Resource Cost) plus Crew Bonus %

There will be a number of required elements to qualify for a Crew Bonus:

• Work stations
• Personal Space
• Dining Space
• Leisure Space
• Corridors to link them all

And depending on how well you pull off all of those elements there will be 3 tiers of maximum Crew Bonuses: 5%, 10% and 15%


Definitions:
All RP space must be walk-able, stand-able or sit-able and accessible from all other RP spaces to be considered an RP space. So no isolated void "RP" space than nobody can get to. And for chairs: Must be able to get to, sit down, get up, and walk away from the chair for it to be considered RP space.
Also a qm is considered a walk-able square meter. (for those of you like me who've never heard of this term before)

Check List for the 3 tiers of Maximum Crew Bonus
....5%..........10%........15%.....All boxes of a tier must be checked to get that tier bonus.
[] 2...........[] 4...........[]9..........qm's of Personal Space per 10K of Resource Cost
[] 2...........[] 4...........[]9..........qm's of Leisure Space per 10K of Resource Cost
[] 1 3/4.....[] 2 3/4.....[] 3 3/4...height of all Required Spaces
[] 1/3........[] 1/2........[] 1.........Work Stations per 10K of Resource Cost
[] 1/3........[] 1/2........[] 1.........Seats and Tables in Dining Facility per 10K of Resource Cost
[] 1...........[] 2...........[] 3.........Width of Required Corridors

Personal Space: Must include a bed and additional qm's depending on the tier of Crew Bonus you're going for. A "bed" is considered a bed when it consists of at least 2 square meters, and is elevated off of the floor by at least .25 meters.
Work Stations: must include a chair and a computer, display, or other decorative screen for the crewman to work at.
Dining Facility: a room that contains seats and chairs for the crew to eat.
Leisure Space: Maybe combined with the Dining Facility if at the 5% and 10% tier. For 15% though, the Leisure Space needs it's own room.
Required Corridors: Since all spaces need to be connected, corridors may be necessary to connect them. Doors will be considered corridors for the purpose of this contest. So in order to get full crew bonus, all required doors should be 4x3 meters. A corridor is considered to be required if it is connecting one of the required spaces to each other (Work stations, Personal Space, Dining Space, and Leisure Space) If you have additional spaces that are not required, then those spaces do not need to conform to RP or size requirements.

All required spaces must be in their own rooms and separated by corridors, with the possible exception of the Leisure Space.

Spoiler: ORIGINAL POST

I Love this Game!

I believe that the best way to see it succeed is to get as many people playing it as possible. The best way to do that is to have people tell their friends and to give new players an incentive to try it out. Also I'd like to get even more good usable ships into the Community Content section. What I mean by "Usable" is people can actually use them in a survival/PVP environment. (so if you don't want to share your tech, then don't submit it.)

To get this competition rolling I'm willing to put up $100 USD of my own money for prizes.

What's the best way to measure a ship's Survivor/PVP ability?

I need a way to test (without bias or opinion) the following categories: Offensive, Defensive, and Resource Cost.
the winner should be getting the most Offense and Defense per Resource spent. Also, given that Crew will be coming soon, I don't want to penalize people for RP space . Ideas for that are below.​

Here are my ideas for Offense ability: (suggestions welcome)

How long it takes to overheat a non moving target with 5mil shields (500K regen) and 5 layers of Advanced armor.
How long it takes to overheat a number of small pirate fighters (suggestions for fighters wanted)

This could be counted by adding up target or pirate shields armor and structure and dividing it by the number of seconds needed to overheat them. Structure below 50% and shield regen will be taken into account.​

Here are my ideas for Defensive ability: (suggestions welcome)

Disable the ship's weapons, activate all passive systems, give it a one block cannon, turn on ai, and see how long it lasts against a number of pirate fighters.

This could be counted by adding up pirate fighter DPS and dividing it by the number of seconds before the submitted ship overheats.​

Here is my Idea for Resource Cost:

use Megacrafter127's resource calculator. I'm thinking add up all shards, ores, and surplus Meshes or Crystals. Meshes and Chrystals will be divided by 10.​

Ideas for upcoming NPC Crew:

To account for the upcoming crew NPC update, I need to figure out a way to not penalize people for adding RP space to their ships. so for every ship system computer that has wedge chair, a bed, and a path between them for potential NPC's, you should get extra points. I need some suggestions from you guys on the best way to balance this though.​

How to get the final Score: (suggestions welcome)

Now take the Offense number, add it to the Defense number, and divide it by the Resource Cost number. Then add extra Crew NPC Points. The submission with the highest resulting score will be placed at the top of the list.​

Transparency and Active Real Time Judging:

I want a leader board with public scores and pics for everybody to see in real time so you know the score you need to beat. You should be able to submit a ship and get a score, and try again. The point being I want the best ship. How many times have you built something and then thought "I could have done that better." Well now you can. So I will make public all of my test targets, pirate ships, and methodologies so you can recreate them at home. Once your happy with your creation, submit it to me via PM. I should be able to give you a score within a couple of days, and I'll place your name on the ranking list. Only pics and final scores will be made public until the contest is over. Actual blue prints will not be made public in Community Content until after the completion is over. This way if you have a secret weapon it can remain secret until after the completion is over.​

So what do I need from you gals/guys ?

What should the prizes be?

I'm leaning towards three prizes $60 for first, $25 for second, and $15 for third. My initial thoughts are to gift a game of your choice to you on Steam. So first place could get a pretty good game, and third place will at the least be able to purchase a copy of Starmade. However, I'm all ears if you guys can think of something different as far as prizes should go. Somebody suggested I build for them a custom ship or some other investment of my time. I'm all for that if you want that instead.​

How long should the competition run for? I'm leaning towards a month or maybe two

What are your thoughts for my testing criteria?

Should there be a resource cost or size limit? if so, what should it be? (I will not consider Mass as a limit)

This Contest is not yet started. First I'd like to get an opinion from you all.

Thanks

 

[NeonSturm]

Do you not have rules on aesthetics? Perhaps your $60 will go to a Borg-Cube with grey hull.

To balance RP, just require empty space in the ship.
Maybe require 1 qm walking / deko/not-needed-blocks area per XX blocks used to define it.
Also exclude hangar space possibly obstructed by docking ships from counting to it.

 

[alterintel]

maybe have a post with pictures of the ship and internal RP space, you'll get extra points for the number of likes it gets?

Or somehow give extra points for each cubic meter of RP space. but I worry people will just submit stuff with empty space and claim that it's RP space.

you don't think that "every ship system computer that has wedge chair, a bed, and a path between them" is enough?

 

[NeonSturm]

The number of likes depends on how many peoples have seen it and how lazy they are.

It's ok if there is empty-RP space, because it can be filled later and it balances these ships vs RP ships. Or so I thought.
3? Or count cargo crates (on combat ships or additional ones) as empty space, because they can be replaced with RP stuff.
– Just require a proper layout.

 

[alterintel]

– Just require a proper layout.

what would be a proper layout?
Bridge, Quarters, Cafeteria, Bathroom, Lounge, and passage ways inbetween?

 

[NeonSturm]

what would be a proper layout?
Bridge, Quarters, Cafeteria, Bathroom, Lounge, and passage ways inbetween?

Yes
Cafeteria can dupe as lounge, especially on military ships.
But there should be enough labour room for the majority of crew (doesn't need a name, but can be machine room, R&D, whatever) and a lounge-sized rooms for storing replacement parts or other arbitrary stuff (a bit like a garage / basement / attic/loft in a house).

The size of hallways define how high a deck is.
Obviously the smaller the decks, the more blocks you spend on ceilings/floors, the more space you need for walking elsewhere To not punish 5m tall corridors.

You define how many large, medium and small rooms you want.

Large = The whole crew fits in. 1,2 or 4 qm per crew member depending on class. Captain counts twice
Medium = The whole crew fits in, but this space can be divided and needs 2, 4, 8qm.
Small = 4x4z2y or 16 qm for a bunk or working station. This area can hold 4,2 or 1 crew members => 4, 8, 16 qm.​

Important: Every value is multiplied with corridor height : "value* corridor-height/2"
Note: The assumption is that large and medium rooms are used by different members at different times, reducing size by 1/2. To work, you need more space because of the equipment and visitors.
Note: Classes are : military, civilian-work / flagship, civilian- living/luxury-transport.
​

Perhaps the best approach is to divide (volume for crew) / (average area per crew member) = (crew count).
Then use (crew count) * (average labour area per member) = (sum of the size of labour rooms).

(average area per crew member) = bunk space + labour space + cafeteria/lounge space.
Corridors can count extra. Space needed for corridors or connecting otherwise unconnected ones through rooms doesn't add to crew count.

Edit-Note: Crew count doesn't increase area. It is just a helper-value to determinate the proportions of rooms.

 

[alterintel]

NeonSturm, I think I agree with your post, but I'm not sure I understand it. What's a "qm"?

regarding your statement about not punishing 5m tall corridors, I'm potentially in agreement, but I'm not sure how you want to weigh it. There needs to be a soft limit where if you go for too much RP space, you will lose points because your sacrificing system space. Also I want to see too little space for RP result in too little bonus points for RP Space.

So what I've gathered from your posts are that you will agree with the following:
for max RP space bonus:
1 crew for every working/functional system computer
that computer should have a wedge for a seat, and that crewman should have a place for labor and leisure and rest.
Labor Space = where the computer is, should have enough space for 3 cubic meters for each crewman stationed there.
Leisure Space = where crewman go to eat drink and unwind. should have enough space for 3 cubic meters per crewman.
Personal Space = where the crewman goes to sleep, and get alone time. should be 3 cubic meters per crewman.
Passageways = space needed to get between spaces.

So to get a bonus for crew, you need the following for each crew bonus:

• a wedge to sit at in front of a system computer.
• at least 3^3 meters of labor space (contains system computer)
• at least 3^3 meters of R&R space in a separate room
• at least 3^3 meters of sleep/bunk space
• a corridor that connects these spaces.

3^3 meters of space means means 27 free/RP blocks. for example 3 wide, by 3 long, by 3 tall.
Maybe 500 extra points for each crewman the ship supports.

Thoughts or clarifications? Remember... I want to keep it relatively simple.

 

[Megacrafter127]

What's a "qm"?

"qm" is a colloquial unit in parts of some german-speaking societies. It is short for "Quadratmeter", which translates to 'square meter', which just means m².

 

[NeonSturm]

I basically agree alterintel
I would fine-tune a few things, but it is your competition after all - your rules. I just think this will help

What's a "qm"?

Square meters. "Quadrat-Meter". I forgot english here, but Megacrafter127 ninja-ed me
It is not good to use volume to define crew space (except for stacked bunks and elevated platforms), That is why I use "walk-able area".

regarding your statement about not punishing 5m tall corridors, I'm potentially in agreement, but I'm not sure how you want to weigh it. There needs to be a soft limit where if you go for too much RP space, you will lose points because your sacrificing system space. Also I want to see too little space for RP result in too little bonus points for RP Space.

Suggestion for a soft-cap for ceiling-height:

• 70% RP for 2m high corridors (3 with floor/ceiling),
• 100% for 3m high (4m total),
• 120% for 4m high ones (5m total)

The peak (differential floor/ceiling+height) is at 3m, because 75% and 125% would be proportional. 5% loss per difference in height.

1 crew for every working/functional system computer

Not every computer needs a crew man. Sometimes you only need mining OR weapons.
1 crew member per station is good.

 

[alterintel]

so for 2 high RP space = 70% bonus per crew
3 high RP space = 100% bonus per crew
4 high RP space = 120% bonus per crew
5 high or more is only 120% bonus per crew
as long as a block doesn't fill the whole space ie a 3/4 slab, a penta, a plant or a light, it counts as RP space.
for a complete bonus the empty space needs to be touching and connected to the other RP spaces. For example a half of an empty space in the middle of system blocks doesn't count.

lets see how that works.. hopefully it wont piss off too many people. :P

 

[NeonSturm]

I haven't thought much about slabs above.
If you use 1/4 slabs for floor+ceiling, you can get 1.5m or 1m additionally and different textures on different floors.

I've built with these, but I don't know how many peoples utilize them. I haven't see many reviews of ships using slabs for more than an occasional bed in bunks or med-room.

 

[terra mining corp.]

I like to use 1/4slabs for small ship armor plating,and it's good to use for interior walls I've found.
[DOUBLEPOST=1454258486,1454258395][/DOUBLEPOST]are you going to divide into classes of ship to even out judging?

 

[alterintel]

are you going to divide into classes of ship to even out judging?

Not sure. If I did limit it by "class" not sure what class it would be. What are your thoughts?... I would think that the scores them selves would end up funneling ships toward a class that would end up being the most efficient.

I'm guessing the most efficient design would be centered about 1.8mil power/sec

 

[terra mining corp.]

I was meaning judging take all entries and place against like size/use ships so as not to have corvettes(1500 mass)against cruisers/battleships or even titans,maybe a universal clasification of ships is in order?

 

[alterintel]

I do not plan on separating ship classes (at least not yet anyways). The way I plan on judging is basically comparing ship effectiveness vs ship cost. A titan, would probably get just as good a score as a frigate if they are both build with the same efficiency.

(Purely hypothetical numbers and hypothetical math: (Offense + Defense + Crew Bonus / (Resource Cost /100,000))
Frigate: Offense 200, Defense 150, Resource Cost 200,000, Crew Bonus 100% ...........Total Score: 425
Battle Ship: Offense 500, Defense 400, Resource Cost 500,000, Crew Bonus 100% ..... Total Score: 280
Titan: Offense 800, Defense 1000, Resource Cost 900,000, Crew Bonus 100% ............. Total Score: 255
So in this example the Frigate would be judged better than the Titan and a Battle ship.

Obviously this is just hypothetical, and I will need some help coming up with a more balanced equation.

Does this make sense?

 

[NeonSturm]

(1 Purely hypothetical numbers and hypothetical math: (2 Offense + Defense + Crew Bonus / (3 Resource Cost /100,000 3) 2)

Frigate: Offense 200, Defense 150, Resource Cost 200,000, Crew Bonus 100% ...........Total Score: 425

(200+150) + (100% /2) = 350 +50% = 525

Battle Ship: Offense 500, Defense 400, Resource Cost 500,000, Crew Bonus 100% ..... Total Score: 280

(500+400) + (100% /5) = 900 + 20% = 1080

Titan: Offense 800, Defense 1000, Resource Cost 900,000, Crew Bonus 100% ............. Total Score: 255

(800+1000) + (100% /9) = 1800 + 11% = 1998

I don't know how you get these numbers, but not with the math you told us. Also you have 3 opening and 2 closing brackets in the header-line of that paragraph. Marked them with 123 32.

 

[alterintel]

I don't know how you get these numbers, but not with the math you told us. Also you have 3 opening and 2 closing brackets in the header-line of that paragraph. Marked them with 123 32.

yeah, after I did the math from an earlier post, I wasn't totally happy with it so I changed it up a bit on the fly. The math still needs work, and I of course want to make sure that everybody is happy with it before we proceed.

so for the above numbers here's how I got them:

(Offense + Defense + Crew Bonus / (Resource Cost /100,000))

Useing the Frigate:
(Offense + Defense + Crew Bonus / (Resource Cost /100,000))
(200 + 150 + 500)/(200,000 / 100,000) = 425

Originally I thought I would give 500 points for full crew bonus. But doesn't work out too well either.
So now I'm thinking this:
so for 2 high full RP space for all crew = + 8% to total
3 high full RP space for all crew = + 10% to total
4 high and above full RP space for all crew = + 12% to total

(Offense + Defense) / (Resource Cost/100,000) + Crew Bonus
Frigate with full 3 high RP space for crew
(200 + 150) / (200,000 / 100,000) + 10% = 192.5

Now I just need to make sure my Offense and Defense numbers will be accurate.

Thoughts?

 

[NeonSturm]

As long as you make sure offence+defence scales as fast as cost/100'000 it is not a problem.

About the 8%,10%,12% - make sure to keep the 3m percentage roughly equal to the %advantage you lose with a bigger ship's lower evasion and turn speed, etc. Perhaps it's fine, but that depends how much crew space you require relatively to the ship size.

Can't really answer that without additional information how you handle it to keep "crew requirements / volume" equal accross different ship volumes.
(( A small ship and a titan both can have 1 weapon computer for forward guns and 6 turrets each … ))

 

[alterintel]

yeah, RP spce is going to be a tough one to figure out how to judge accurately. Also have to worry about the possibility of a doom cube with rp space LOL

I'm going to try to download a couple of ships off of the Community Content section to test the judging methodology.

Also just finished making a big test target with 3 mil of shields (no recharge) 3 mil of armor, and 3 layers of advanced armor. As far as small multiple targets... not sure there. I don't want to use Isanths, is there another fighter that I could use?

 

[alterintel]

Ok so here are my thoughts so far on crew.
I'm basing this off of my most recent ship the Sao Paulo, which costs roughly 120K resources to build. Also basing this off of roughly 1 crew per major system of that ship which is roughly 10 systems. So I'm thinking 10 crew for every 100K or 1 crew for every 10K of resources spent.

I'm thinking of the following algorithm:
(( Offense + Defense ) + Crew Bonus % )) / (Resource Cost / 10,000)

a max crew bonus would be 25%. So if you have 1 crew for every 10K of resource cost you would get the maximum crew bonus.
however if you have no crew you get no crew bonus.

Thoughts on Offense and Defense:
Basically how long it takes and how long you can last. The goal being 1K DPS vs 100K shields or armor

So if your ship is up against a target with 100K shields and your ship has 1K DPS, then it should take you about 100 seconds to take it out. So you should get a 200 for your offensive score. This time can be affected by effects such as Ion Pierce, and Punch Through.

If you ship has 10K shields (with no recharge) and your up against a couple fighters with a combined DPS of 1K, you should be able to last 100 seconds at least. This would get you a defensive score of 100. This time could be affected by Ion, and other armor passive effects, as well as maneuverability.

If during testing I find that your ship is not taking any damage due to shield recharge, then I could increase the number of fighters that you go up against. But then the extra DPS would be taken into account when coming up with your final score.

So any thoughts from you guys?

Thanks