Yeah only retards care about things, haha!is onley gaem
why u heff 2 be mad
including rail doors etc. - totally agree: regardless of any changes to power or balance, docked entities will stay a problem otherwise.I prefer another suggestion I saw that if a docked entity had it's rail destroyed, it would stop functioning, but not undock (something about a ghost rail being made, still looking for the thread again). That way we get rid of the problems with undocked entities in the middle of ships altogether, including rail doors etc.
I'd argue that it would be better to allow those systems to just work in a reasonable way on a single entity rather than have them have funky interactions with only the mass of the entity they are on rather than the mass of the entire group of entities up and down various docking chains. From your description it sounds like your ship is designed to work around problems in balance atm, rather than the modularity being because you want to be able to swap parts. If the balance gets fixed so you can do the same thing on a single entity, is making it not work with multiple docked entities a problem?As the author of that ship here's why it won't work, along with several other reasons. That ship isn't even modular for the sake of power generation, except the cannon, but to reduce mass cost of support systems.
Surface docking would be a docker that could dock/latch-on without a rail on the receiving entity?Also keep in mind that surface docking is a planned feature (as far as i remember, maybe correct me on that) and once that comes in you get alll the good old exploits right back, just with surface docking :D Surface docked turrets, surface docked armor, surface docked shields etc etc etc.
Fixing docked power/entities and all this other shit requires two core changes:
I wrote a longass post about fixing this shit in detail a while back but nobody cared: My Stupid Power Mechanics Thesis
- Remove the power bonus and reballance power consumption
- Remove the mass cost for support systems and make them work on linear scales
Fleets... frankly, fleets more than anything else are where I see that I do not really understand what the final end state of the game the devs want is. RTS/4X/flight-sim hybrid of some sort. Because, you are 100% right, ignoring lag, fleets really make the soft caps make much less sense from both a balance point of view and a "make the game friendlier to new players by not having block count be a huge competitive advantage" point of view. Are fleets much lag friendlier? Why is it better for one player to control X mass across 5 ships in one battle than X mass across 1 ship in the same battle?I'm sure this all makes a lot of sense when comparing single entity ships to modular ones, but compare both ships TO FLEETS. Fleets of identical mass would utterly fucking annihilate large ships, so what is the point of large ships then?
As has allready been pointed out, modular ships DON'T LAG WHEN THEY AREN'T DYING. Adress the fucking issue, the lag, if that's what your problem is.
I don't remember the source but i think that's how it's supposed to go. Everything else i agree with you 100%.Surface docking would be a docker that could dock/latch-on without a rail on the receiving entity?
Whatever works the best. But explosions and big holes is what I prefer the most.Or shadow docks are how you go about fixing it; modular ships don't lag when they're just floating around, only on undocks.
Docked power sources for turrets do NOT lag servers "even more". They do not lag servers at all, 'except' if they come loose due to battle damage. The old docked power reactors lagged servers a lot more even when not coming loose, due to their power beams and logic becoming quite taxing when used in large numbers. The new way in which docked power sources are being used is nowhere near the level of lag problem that the old systems were.Schine removed docked reactors but players design new ways to workaround that and lag servers even more xD
You are right, previous system was bad, but this doesn't mean the idea of docked reactor was bad. Lag from logic and beams wouldn't be the case if we had the ability to transfer back and forth between entities, not only in one direction. Killing ability to transfer from docked entities, crippled idea of modular ships and make this style of building even more difficult. Now you have to dock even more entities to build decent ship:Docked power sources for turrets do NOT lag servers "even more". They do not lag servers at all, 'except' if they come loose due to bettle damage. The old docked power reactors lagged servers a lot more even when not coming loose, due to their power beams and logic becoming quite taxing when used in large numbers. The new way in which docked power sources are being used is nowhere near the level of lag problem that the old systems were.
How is the intended use of the DOCKING system to build an entire ship in separate parts to circumvent limits made to stop you from doing what are doing? I would assume if schema wanted us to use separate entities EVERY TIME we built a ship he would have pursued that in terms of design. Again I am not advocating against building modular ships or having modules that improve the performance of the ship. I have a problem with docked entities being the only way to build certain systems if you want them to be effective. You can have a lot more regen, jump inhibitor power, waffle arrays of doom, and many others. The only downside is the vulnerability of logic and dockers, as well as the immense lag when things come loose. In that last sentence you are describing why I have a problem with mechanics abuse. These modular ships are much better than building a ship the normal way and I think that is highly detrimental to the creativity of this game.I don't think that this is exploiting the rail system, i think this is the intended use. A self powering, self shielded weapons module is pretty nasty, but that is part of the rail system. This is not the only ship that does this, there are several module based ships out there now, that move very quickly, turn very quickly, have massive shields each, and have some really amazing systems.
I'm pretty sure Schema could handle it. If it was the only way for him to make the system work as intended, he would get it done when the time came.The idea is good but i don't think StarMade understands entities in this way. That is why i didn't add a like. Every entity "core" can have 2 mil regeneration they are stand alone. How does the game tell them apart or add them while docked? I could be wrong but i think it would require major recoding same with ghost rails. I like solutions to use what is in the game already. Just in a better or different way so it's easy to implement.
Let me start by saying that MANY of the mechanics in this game are not conducive to competitive play. It is far from balanced and there will most likely be many different popular strategies that will shift as the game is balanced. I don't have a problem with you using mechanics in a way that works. I have a problem with WHY it works in this specific instance. You are using gameplay mechanics to essentially bypass limits on single ships that are put there for a reason. You can do whatever you want but I'd like to help Schema make the game that he wants instead of making PvPers happy. There plenty of games made for competition and this isn't one of them.Do you complain about people kicking footballs to hard, or when people use fire magic against ice monsters? People follow what works, and no, people aren't going to make "complex wonders" if there's no fucking point to them. You're basically complaining that people are playing the game differently from you. It's fucking retarded, please stop. Making your ships high end PVP ships isn't mandatory, just like making them pretty isn't, but if there's no way to make GOOD design that's better than BAD design, you kill the reason a lot of people play.
I also sincerely doubt that some random idiot, completely new to the game, needs to be able to build a fucking titan immediately. Why the fuck would that be necessary, you can't do that in any other fucking game.
Not modular for power generation except for the weapon? That is the main reason for increased power regen, increased DPS. I can't build weapon that can match that raw DPS unless I build separate power for it using docked entities. How is this not problem? I HAVE to build a ship your way or I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. You built your ship in a modular way not because it was cool or interesting, but to specifically achieve stats that would have been far unobtainable with any other methods.As the author of that ship here's why it won't work, along with several other reasons. That ship isn't even modular for the sake of power generation, except the cannon, but to reduce mass cost of support systems.
The game punishes single entity ships in a myriad of dumb ways, power is just one of them, but consider that we have fucking fleets now:
What happens when a 500.000 mass fleet of small ships armed with EMP weapons runs into a 500.000 mass single ship?
The fleet of small ships have a massive power generation bonus and can easily outtage the large ship, which becomes completely unable to do anything. Currently turrets will still work, unless they're also being targetted, but at least turrets can compete. Modular design is how larger ships catches up with fleets of smaller ships. Game should have a ballance between large ships and small ships, not emphasize one of them to ridiculous extremes.
I agree that we need new mechanics to add meaning to larger ships. I don't think they should match smaller ships pound for pound. I think large ships should focus on being hard to kill and support the ships in their fleet. The mechanics need some work but your suggestion are pretty much to just tear it down because it doesn't work. Obviously it works to some degree because people play this game regularly to fight. Is everyone 100% satisfied? No far from it, but that doesn't mean tearing it down and starting from scratch will make it better.People keep complaining about complexity in this game, but this approach is what causes nonsensical complexity. First we had power system with reactor lines, but that couldn't be allowed to continue on forever, so softcab was added. Then that wasn't good enough for big ships, people were using docked reactors, so the cap was raised. That didn't fix anything so auxilliary power was added. That didn't fix anything so people are still using docked entities, what will the next rule be?
Refusing to go back and rework bad mechanics instead of just piling on arbitrary rule after rule trying to catch every exploit is how you get nonsensically overcomplicated design.
Maybe if shine would get their fingers out of a space whale butthole and fix the issues in the game that have been there for years, there wouldn't be so many "exploits" around.
You really hate fleets don't you?The point of the 2mil cap is that schine are fucking idiots, and removing the powerbonus would stop all this nonsense once and for all. I'm sure this all makes a lot of sense when comparing single entity ships to modular ones, but compare both ships TO FLEETS. Fleets of identical mass would utterly fucking annihilate large ships, so what is the point of large ships then?
As has allready been pointed out, modular ships DON'T LAG WHEN THEY AREN'T DYING. Adress the fucking issue, the lag, if that's what your problem is.
You have to build a ship using all the tricks of the trade, you have to build it with attention to detail and intricacy, and if you do not, you will indeed be at a disadvantage. What you are arguing for here, quite frankly, is that 'you' want 'us' to build ships 'your' way.I HAVE to build a ship your way or I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. You built your ship in a modular way not because it was cool or interesting, but to specifically achieve stats that would have been far unobtainable with any other methods.
A titan built "that way" is by no means unbeatable. It needs simply to meet a titan built by another player who used an equal level of build strategy themselves, or a fleet built even half way competently (a fleet will decimate any single ship at anywhere close to the same mass).He doesn't what a single guy flying around in a titan that is unbeatable.
But that's true of any optimisation technique, not just using multiple entities. You have to allocate a reasonable mass to power capacitors, make your weapons the "correct" size, achieve a decent thrust to mass ratio, and so on. Just like Raisinbat will have already doneI HAVE to build a ship your way or I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage.
I know this pain friendNow I'm afraid of building anything because it can be nerfed in any time and all my effort, time invested to design, build, will be wasted.
As would everyone if they had any idea what it meant! Anyone who has played X3 will know how little interest you end up taking with your ships, because they're burried in menus and so far away from you, there's no real interaction with them. That's fine for X3, but ship creation is THE most important part of starmade; even if it's not what you personally are doing, the creation and use of ships is what the entire game revolves around. When you make the game about this high level expansion, it's like having a super elaborate character creator for your mmo, which is immediately burried under random gear so you can't see it at all.You really hate fleets don't you?
Again you're missing the point dude. Let me try to explain this a bit more clearly...Not modular for power generation except for the weapon? That is the main reason for increased power regen, increased DPS. I can't build weapon that can match that raw DPS unless I build separate power for it using docked entities. How is this not problem? I HAVE to build a ship your way or I am ALWAYS at a disadvantage. You built your ship in a modular way not because it was cool or interesting, but to specifically achieve stats that would have been far unobtainable with any other methods.
My way? What exactly is my way of building ships? Maybe everything but using docked entities to break limits that the dev put there. I knew when I used docked power and shield generators they were eventually going to be patched out. I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money that the same is going to happen to advantages that come with docked construction methods.You have to build a ship using all the tricks of the trade, you have to build it with attention to detail and intricacy, and if you do not, you will indeed be at a disadvantage. What you are arguing for here, quite frankly, is that 'you' want 'us' to build ships 'your' way.
I don't even know how to respond to this. I get modular tech is cool but how can you say it is the ONLY interesting thing in the game. Either I'm insane and my experience with Starmade is totally different, or you've never really built without modules. Seriously how can you even say this?Our using modular tech is what makes the game interesting for us. If it was just a matter of X numbers of this block and Y numbers of that block, and make it with nice wedges and colors, this game would frankly be an exceedingly dull exercise in monotony. There would be no skill in ship building other than artistic, and I cannot imagine anything LESS interesting. I want a game with sufficient nuance in the building strategy that I can mull over build strategies for hours on end in my head, without laying down a single brick.
How is making docked entities not convey huge advantages going to greatly reduce strategy? All the same systems exist and they still work the same too. It just takes out the tedium of having to start your ship a specific way to even begin the design process.You quite frankly, are arguing for the removal of all but the most trivially basic of strategy... How many shields should I use, what ratio of capacitors to regenerators, how much armor, what weapon systems should I add, how big should I make them, should I put them in turrets, how many PD, how much thrust... And that's it. Everything else is cosmetic. If that was the build system, I could write a strategy guide to turn a newb into Clausewitz, and it probably wouldn't be more than two pages.
It is also true of any exploit. I don't see how that makes it a viable game design. You don't design hard limits into the game and expect that players will circumvent them.But that's true of any optimisation technique, not just using multiple entities. You have to allocate a reasonable mass to power capacitors, make your weapons the "correct" size, achieve a decent thrust to mass ratio, and so on. Just like Raisinbat will have already done
Personally I think ships made from multiple entities are MUCH more interesting than not. Ship design becomes a much larger world to explore.
I love that you can have a reactor for your port shields and one for your starboard shields, and they can be operating at independent efficiencies because of different damage levels to the reactors, or that you can prioritise a system for power by giving it it's own reactor before giving leftover mass/space to a reactor for other systems, and so on, ad infinitum.
It adds such a huge, huge range of possibilities.
Well I don't know what to tell you but this game will have that level of play. By the end of development you should have the ability to command a large amount of ships by remote. You don't have to play that way but as far as large scale combat goes that is the reality if you are the leader of a large faction. This game has the potential to be more in-depth and varied than X3 could ever dream of. You can explore every inch on foot and there will be endless randomly generated content. Not to mention quality RP that will be expanded with upcoming world updates.As would everyone if they had any idea what it meant! Anyone who has played X3 will know how little interest you end up taking with your ships, because they're burried in menus and so far away from you, there's no real interaction with them. That's fine for X3, but ship creation is THE most important part of starmade; even if it's not what you personally are doing, the creation and use of ships is what the entire game revolves around. When you make the game about this high level expansion, it's like having a super elaborate character creator for your mmo, which is immediately burried under random gear so you can't see it at all.
I've played X3 for hundreds of hours, yet i have ZERO idea what 99% of the ships in that game look like, because my only interaction with them is ordering them around out of sector, doing trade runs and defending factories, and since they're a thousand times better at it than i would be personally doing these things because they are many and i am one, your personal involvement in everything eventually doesn't really concern the game.
I'm missing the point? I don't have a problem understanding why docked entities can be used to GREATLY enhance your ship. I totally get this point. There is no reason to explain it again. I've built combat ships in this game and understand the mechanics that go into them.Again you're missing the point dude. Let me try to explain this a bit more clearly...
Your ship needs a bunch of support systems to not be terrible; ion effect, overdrive effect, scanner and possibly EMP effect. Im too lazy right now to look up the exact values for all of it, but that totals about 15% of your mass. By splitting your ship into modules, these systems only count the entity they're on for how much mass they need to match. For arbalest, it's split into 4 similar sized modules, so you're cutting this cost down by 75%, from 15% to <5%.
If you're assuming shield systems are about 20% of your total mass as a single entity ship, being able to add 10% more mass results in !!! 50% !!!! higher shield strength, at NO extra cost. That is a MASSIVE advantage, and it's why beating around the power system won't stop modular designs.
A fleet? How can you call an empty hull with a few modules, a naked shield/weapon bank, and a naked thruster thingie a fleet. So the game is supposed to think you are flying around in a glued together fleet. This really couldn't sound gimmickier.You're also missing the fact that this won't change the power disparity between groups of ships and large single entity ships. A modular is just a fleet that's glued together and specialized, why does a fleet suddenly need to be weakened because it's attached to itself? The only reason AI fleets aren't completely dominating everything is because the ai is too stupid atm.
make active dockers and rail pairs invulnerable? No more dedock, no more problems.Me too, but if people won't voluntarily stop making docked reactor chains that break the server every time one of them comes loose, what choice do we have?
Its a case of "This is why we can't have nice things, because people abuse them".