Devblog 13th September 2017 (Power Stream!)

    Dr. Whammy

    Executive Constructologist of the United Star Axis
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages
    1,601
    Reaction score
    1,385
    Yay! They have removed all skill from power systems! 'Exploitable' just happens to also mean 'skill'.

    From now on, the amount of power you have is a direct, one for one correlation with the size of your ship. If you want more power, build a bigger ship. That's it. Simple enough for the bottom of the pyramid. The rest of us who actually want to test our engineering skill, can look for a new game.
    I can see your point of view; especially since I tend to build smaller ships.

    On the other hand, we don't know exactly what kind of balancing the stabilizer mechanic will create. More information is needed. Hopefully, they'll include that in the document.
     
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2016
    Messages
    1,140
    Reaction score
    600
    From now on, the amount of power you have is a direct, one for one correlation with the size of your ship. If you want more power, build a bigger ship. That's it. Simple enough for the bottom of the pyramid. The rest of us who actually want to test our engineering skill, can look for a new game.
    I think this is a missunderstanding. I think they just said "bigger ship means more power", but they didn't say that the power gain will be linear with its size. Or maybe I just listened wrong in the stream.

    Maybe, if we ask them nicely, they might even consider make it so that 2 smaller ships are way more efficient than one big ship that has about the same size as 2 small ones combined. Adjusting those numbers might be the easiest part of all but must be done last when everything else is ready to finetune it.
     
    Joined
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages
    334
    Reaction score
    132
    Here's a question for you. Will mass enhancers be affected by this system, and will there be chambers for that?
     
    Joined
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages
    922
    Reaction score
    289
    I think this is a missunderstanding. I think they just said "bigger ship means more power", but they didn't say that the power gain will be linear with its size. Or maybe I just listened wrong in the stream.
    No, it's a linear relationship. The distance required for stabilizers for maximum efficiency depends upon the number of power blocks. The more power blocks, the further the required distance. This will define an exact relationship to ship size and maximum power. You could of course build a larger ship with 'less' power, but it will be impossible to build a smaller ship with more power. The end result will be that bigger will ALWAYS be better.

    It used to be the case that a smart builder who understood the power dynamics could squeeze an extraordinary amount of power out of a very small ship. This allowed us to put the lie to those who insisted that the only right way to play was to build gigantic newb cubes that nothing could touch. They were right until they met one of the more intelligent players who could destroy them often with a ship a tenth the mass. Those days are over. The newb cubes shall indeed rule from now on. Giganticism is the new optimum. Skill is moot.

    This is fine for those who only care about pretty. This is boring as shit for those who want a game they can sink their teeth into.
     
    Joined
    Oct 17, 2015
    Messages
    73
    Reaction score
    17
    Well, they have said that destroying conduits between chambers in battle won't change anything. So why do we even need them? It's easier to connect chambers in some sort of menu, not in the build mode.

    And yeah, while I didn't like old system much, it was able to divide good and bad power builders.
    And the new system looks like complete no-brainer
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jul 26, 2013
    Messages
    5
    Reaction score
    0
    I am personally very happy with these changes. I cannot wait for it but I guess it will take some time before we get our hands on it.
     
    Joined
    Jun 11, 2016
    Messages
    1,140
    Reaction score
    600
    No, it's a linear relationship. The distance required for stabilizers for maximum efficiency depends upon the number of power blocks. The more power blocks, the further the required distance. This will define an exact relationship to ship size and maximum power. You could of course build a larger ship with 'less' power, but it will be impossible to build a smaller ship with more power. The end result will be that bigger will ALWAYS be better.
    Ah ok I get it. You want that there are complex engineering possibilities, and that a smaller ship could be more powerfull than a bigger ship if the builder is an experienced one.

    Well. I don't know. I want pvp where I know that my ship is not like only 50% as good as another equally sized ship, just because someone spent 30 hours learning some incomprehensible power and weapon systems, including some bug abusing or special features like docked armor. I hated this. It was badly documented and about many trial and error testings. For me its a game, and not some science and engineering class, I didn't want to get spoondfed, but the old system was for the real hardcore fans of complexity and autodidactic-learning.

    But I agree, it might be less complex and I understand that you will miss this sort of "endgame challenge".

    Anyway, for the actual facts: You say: "No, it's a linear relationship. The distance required for stabilizers for maximum efficiency depends upon the number of power blocks. The more power blocks, the further the required distance. This will define an exact relationship to ship size and maximum power."
    I say we don't know if it will stay like that. And how chambers scale in this formula. Yes it might be like that right now. I don't know that, because I am not like "hey he showed it in the stream now we can be 100% certain that it will be exactly like that in the final version of the system". I mean no one of us actually tested your concern about the linear scaling chamber formulas, and how the size and leveling of the chambers account into that. Maybe, if we give them feedback in the dev-build testing phase, they might change that if it is like you fear. And maybe it isn't even like you perceived it.
     

    Dr. Whammy

    Executive Constructologist of the United Star Axis
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages
    1,601
    Reaction score
    1,385
    This power rebalance will definitely have some major growing pains; considering that it is poised to break literally everything in the game. While it does not effectively address the big vs small issue it may provide balance between PVP, PVE and RP build styles. For big vs small; we'll have to wait and see what else Schine has in mind. Before we panic, lets see what their pending documentation says.

    One aspect I am looking forward to is one-shot capability for ships carrying armaments above their reactor capacity. You can have dedicated fighters armed with missiles who dump ordnance for a mini alpha strike, then either fight with their secondary weapons or return to base to rearm. This could make carriers more interesting.

    For the RP or small scale builders, hover tanks and planetary assault missions may now be possible.
     
    Joined
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages
    922
    Reaction score
    289
    Ah ok I get it. You want that there are complex engineering possibilities, and that a smaller ship could be more powerfull than a bigger ship if the builder is an experienced one.
    Yes, you have sized me up correctly. That is indeed what I want, and any game that offers that will quickly find my interest, to the detriment of those that do not.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Arkudo
    Joined
    Sep 1, 2013
    Messages
    8
    Reaction score
    3
    Good grief. Ok. I'm going to be as fair as I can about this, because I have a lot of positive and negative emotions about this.

    First the good.

    Simplifying the power system is the correct way to go from my perspective because I am mainly an artistically motivated builder and when you proposed factions and fleets it became very clear that this game isn't about creating the perfect ship. Its about creating RTS style units and expanding through space. A first person RTS where I get to design the units, production, aesthetic, and, command them at all levels? This excites me. Its insanely ambitious and is the idea I find MOST unique about this game (in theory) and yet I think its very possible.

    By creating modular chamber systems and effects, you've passed the biggest hurdle, which was a power system that required a lot of investment for little gain. I understand the sentiments being thrown around about no challenge in creating ships now, and even agree...but I don't WANT to spend days perfecting a single unit. The challenge becomes RTS mixed unit tactics, and this creates near infinite possibilities. I applaud it (and the nifty anti grav system)

    However...at risk of sounding like a total jerk...

    Was this almost a years worth of work? I don't mean planning, polling the community, dealing with drama, optimizations, or any other side things. Without those, how long did it take to craft in game what you had there? I'm not really sure it is. I feel as if so much of the planning stage was overly drawn out and it ground this game and its community to a HALT. As a former Minecraft player, I am more then familiar with the concept of a game with very long development cycles. The difference with that game and this one was that they never left you in such a lurch that you felt like you literally couldn't invest any time in the game without being subjected to heartbreak or, worse yet, a complete sense of pointlessness.

    I already know what you're going to say: This game is much more mechanically complicated and involved then Minecraft was. Everything has to be balanced and tested for game breakage. Fair enough. I was totally ok with the power update being a longer update. Months ago. So, yes, I do like the changes you've brought. Unfortunately, you've also changed your practices when it comes to promptness and transparency. The development of this game has gotten mired in perfectionism, polling, back and forth and a "it gets done when it gets done" attitude. Every update is presented with a "We want this perfect" so we get these massive changes that fundamentally change the basic game, make it feel unplayable until they're done, and then take the better part of a year. I was so excited to see the power update...then I get hit with "then theres going to be a weapons update (the last one had taken a large amount of time...but didn't quite halt everything) and a universe update (such a wild card that I can't decide whether it halts it worse then the power update did or if it does nothing) immediately following. I feel like I just got told to wait ANOTHER year.

    So here I am. I really kind of need one of two things (preferably both) to happen.

    1. Things have to accelerate. Less deliberation. Less perfectionism. More rushing. More MISTAKES you have to fix more in the name of having a game you can properly play. Like I said, I am not a stranger to long development times, but this ONE update almost single handily killed the community. People don't like feeling like they can't play the game for a year at a time (or 2 at the current rate I'm seeing), because to be brutally honest, until this update (and possibly the others you dropped on me as being "immediately after" this one) drops...this game isn't worth playing. And that SHOULD terrify you, but it doesn't seem to. Or at least I'm not sure because...

    2. We need to know SOME sort of time table. From the beginning. You guys used to be fantastic about this. Constant dev-blogs and communication was a constant as well, and was actually what made the last weapons and universe updates way more bearable because we knew what we could do, what would be effective, and how much time we'd have. Not so with this one. To be perfectly bitter about it, you couldn't even hold to your dev blog a week promise for a while there. There's certainly an illusion of this, like a Trello that I cannot make any sort of sense out of and goal sheets, but lets face it: For the better part of 6 months we knew that there was a power update breaking everything coming....um....(scratches head)....sometime. Soon. Maybe.

    One of these problems would be a little irksome. Both combined together will eventually kill the community of this game, and that makes me want to cry. I already gave up making videos because of how NOT fun it is to wait for this and still try to make something creative out of it, I really don't want to give up on this game...because it can be something beautiful. I'm hoping this update really does simplify things as much as you say, because it needs that boost

    I'm worried by the time it reaches that...no-one will care. A game without players is a dead game. This game deserves life
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Sep 29, 2013
    Messages
    294
    Reaction score
    1,145
    What I would like to know if we will get some of the textures for the jump drive blocks back in some capacity.
    They make for some great detail.
     
    Joined
    Oct 22, 2014
    Messages
    334
    Reaction score
    132
    What I would like to know if we will get some of the textures for the jump drive blocks back in some capacity.
    They make for some great detail.
    This, more than any of the rest of the questions in this topic. Those things look great and are really useful decoration. I just used a bunch on a couple ships I'm working on.
     
    Joined
    Jul 10, 2013
    Messages
    624
    Reaction score
    473
    No, it's a linear relationship. The distance required for stabilizers for maximum efficiency depends upon the number of power blocks. The more power blocks, the further the required distance. This will define an exact relationship to ship size and maximum power. You could of course build a larger ship with 'less' power, but it will be impossible to build a smaller ship with more power. The end result will be that bigger will ALWAYS be better.

    It used to be the case that a smart builder who understood the power dynamics could squeeze an extraordinary amount of power out of a very small ship. This allowed us to put the lie to those who insisted that the only right way to play was to build gigantic newb cubes that nothing could touch. They were right until they met one of the more intelligent players who could destroy them often with a ship a tenth the mass. Those days are over. The newb cubes shall indeed rule from now on. Giganticism is the new optimum. Skill is moot.

    This is fine for those who only care about pretty. This is boring as shit for those who want a game they can sink their teeth into.
    I have to disagree here.

    Raw power is not going to be all there is about a ship. What that power is used for and how is what is going to make the difference. The chambers and the priority list for distributing power to the ship and its equipment will require some well thought out designs.
    So you will be able to use those engineering skills of yours.
     
    Joined
    Sep 1, 2013
    Messages
    8
    Reaction score
    3
    This, more than any of the rest of the questions in this topic. Those things look great and are really useful decoration. I just used a bunch on a couple ships I'm working on.
    I'd personally love a "generic deco block" with swappable textures like that. I personally miss the original core block texture
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Zekester81
    Joined
    Sep 8, 2013
    Messages
    10
    Reaction score
    28
    In relation to chamber effects being able to affect more than just a ship its on, you could do some fun quirky thinks with it.

    Communications:
    1. You could have limited distance communication and larger comms chambers would send a signal further.
    2. You could add comms station that can relay or boost a signal making controlling sectors between allied factions important.
    3. Want to insight a war? Or maybe just plunder some ships... Jam comms and wait to see who shows up to investigate.
    Booby-trap Sectors:
    1. Turn entire sectors into inhospitable zones that damage ships, clusters of stations could create a no go zone in the space between them.
    2. Self destruct a station to prevent capture and wipe out anything too close.
    Radar stations:
    1. Have dedicated stations scan for ships and create an early warning network.
    Insert useful/amusing effects here...
     

    Dr. Whammy

    Executive Constructologist of the United Star Axis
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages
    1,601
    Reaction score
    1,385
    A Brainless RP [Or see me mama i am being canon from that franchise at building] builder ALLWAYS is going to be under a rational PVP player.
    Who cares? Anyone can learn RP, PVE or PVP if they have an interest in it. That's not the point of this discussion. This update is supposed to give you the choice at which of the three you want to focus on while allowing you to not automatically suck at the other two; provided you 'do your job'.

    Making the power system accessible to any player does not mean that it can not be "maximized", with the new mechanics the placement of these blocks is still an important part and that is something in which the pure "RPs" will continue limping. [Not to maximize power, only to minimize losses. Shape stuff if you can not get the point. ]
    Maximization will always be a thing. However, this update will supposedly allow you not automatically suck at PVP just because you choose to add some decent interior/aesthetics to your builds. ...provided you 'do your job'.

    Believe or not that type of tactics are plausible with the old energy system.
    Not in the way I'm referring to.


    This update discharges energy when only reloading your weapons; not when firing them; as was the case with the old system. According to the dev stream, this will allow you to carry weaponry beyond your natural energy capacity; granted, it can only be fired once. This may be a fair solution for all those missile/ammo threads that keep popping up but we won't know until we get to test it.

    You can do that since the stop effect appear, the new "hover" mechanics are far from be real usefull far from imagination uses.
    Not in the way the dev stream demonstrated. Did you see the part where the hovercraft rode up the side of the mountain? The stop effect; while useful, does not align to a planetary terrain like that.

    Regarding imagination; I intend to use them on "highways" in conjunction with the new gravity mechanic. Sure; stop 'works' and so does a core with a reactor and thruster but if I can have a 'car', I want a 'car'.

    Whether you're PVP, PVE or RP; the update is coming whether we want it or not. All we can do is watch/read the info Schine gives us, wait until release then see what it can do.
     

    StormWing0

    Leads the Storm
    Joined
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages
    2,126
    Reaction score
    315
    All this new power system will do is change the shape of the smaller drones that we use to rush people and nothing more on that count. :)
     

    Dr. Whammy

    Executive Constructologist of the United Star Axis
    Joined
    Jul 22, 2014
    Messages
    1,601
    Reaction score
    1,385
    Dr. Whammy From my experience on this game there are 2 type of builders:

    Those who try to mold the mechanics of the game to a shape and those that mold the shape to the mechanics of the game.

    First type are mostly players that call them selfs RPers the second type are usually PVPers. [Making a system foolproof will not cause the less skilled to be skilled instantly, There are other stuff most important than have maximized energy like Shape stuff etc etc.]

    In other words first type players are going to suck ALLWAYS vs the second type. [Interiors or decoration stuff are not the problem here.
    I say again; who cares?

    If someone wants to learn how to PVP with the new system, they will. If they don't care about PVP, they won't. Their choice is no concern of yours or mine.


    For those "small alpha damage" you still needing the weapon blocks, that means those ships are not going to be "small". [Small ships swarms are going to work nearlly equal than with the old power system.]
    You and I obviously have different ideas of what "small" means. Nevertheless, in the new update, a "small" ship can be built for either sustained combat with unlimited ammo (the current style) or the space equivalent of a tactical airstrike (like real life). We won't know how far this ability will be allowed to go until release but I'm thinking it might make fleet engagements a bit more interesting; especially if they add more commands.

    Yeah i saw the video, and im still thinking why the hell we need stay aligned inside a tunnel, with the current game mechanics is not needed that stuff away from things that just only happen in your imagination.
    Do you build for anything besides PVP? Not trying to be a jerk but you don't seem to get the concept of creativity for its own sake. So what, if other players want to be creative? How exactly does that negatively impact your gaming experience?
     

    kiddan

    Cobalt-Blooded Bullet Mirror
    Joined
    May 12, 2014
    Messages
    1,131
    Reaction score
    357
    If you ask me, RP ships aren't out of place but instead ahead of their time (when compared to PvP ships). Assuming a crew update is still planned, RPers already have the space to hold crew. They also have space to hold other players for when there are more viable boarding mechanics.
     

    Jarraff

    filthy neutral
    Joined
    Aug 28, 2015
    Messages
    113
    Reaction score
    62
    I see a lot of potential in the new system. Getting rid of power capacity is awesome. I think weapons that draw power to reload are the way to go. If I were new to Starmade, I would definitely chose this new system over the old one.

    Some thoughts on the new system.

    We will be able to customize this system for AI controlled ships. This seems obvious and intentional. AI will still be shit at flying but at least maybe they will be able to use weapons. AI can now be updated. There are So many new drone possibilities with the new system.

    RIP chaindrives. But we will be able to install a fast flight reactor system to be toggled on/off as needed. At least that is how I interpreted things.

    I am worried about a weapons update. We need that as soon as possible, or enough info to continue building. The weapons system does not seem that broken.

    RIP self powered turrets. This alone should make it harder to make big ships. Self powered turrets allowed a builder to take advantage of the power bonus for smaller ships, while building a Titan. I doubt that reactor size to stabilizer distance relationship will be entirely linear.

    All in all I am looking forward to the new system.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Dr. Whammy