Criss' Thread

[jstenholt]

Depending on how many ship variants you want, I may actually agree. Though I'm still not convinced it's a worthwhile use of development resources, as it's still taking one of the games few coders away from another task to do something that can realistically already be accomplished now.

On the last page I made a suggestion that the devs experiment with letting a community member create a couple variants of the TG frigate just to see how it turned out. Hell, if it was available for download I'd do it for fun and to prove that it could be a worthwhile possibility.

 

[StormWing0]

Yes, however we would have to define how the parts stick together. If we created one set of pieces, without a very clear build formula / philosophy, we would be spending time figuring this out how they would need to stick together. If we do have chunks that are all the same size but different looks we would probably loose build quality. There is no doubt these builds would be less interesting. This is much easier done with say station rooms, or planet structures, which is something Auburn has already taken a look at.

I'm just curious did you guys ever take a look at my Blank Blocks and parts topic in the suggestions section? It might give you all some ideas on how to make it work. I'll see if I can track it down later. The general idea was to let the people building things define some blank sections that could be replaced by a number of different but correct blocks. Say weapons computers and their modules, docking points for turrets could randomly grab turret BPs that fit, same thing with normal docking points. So many ways to extend off that idea, in theory you could use saved templates as well for it.

 

[Criss]

I think everyone here understands the different ways we could go about procedural generation. The issue is getting that system into SM, and setting up each of these ships to actually work and place parts where they are needed. Sounds not fun. I'd rather build. I also deleted a few posts because we did indeed go off topic. Procedural ships was never my question. Even if we wanted it, it's a long long long ways off. Not worth thinking a moment about at this time.

It does look like people want ship variants. This is good, and I'd be happy to make them along the way.

 

[StormWing0]

I think everyone here understands the different ways we could go about procedural generation. The issue is getting that system into SM, and setting up each of these ships to actually work and place parts where they are needed. Sounds not fun. I'd rather build. I also deleted a few posts because we did indeed go off topic. Procedural ships was never my question. Even if we wanted it, it's a long long long ways off. Not worth thinking a moment about at this time.

It does look like people want ship variants. This is good, and I'd be happy to make them along the way.

Maybe repeat what you guys did when you left path-finding into ship docking areas up to us? Except we have blank parts to mess with. Or some kind of marking tools for us to break mess with.

 

[Blaza612]

I think everyone here understands the different ways we could go about procedural generation

Spoiler

Far from it. It looks like I'm gonna have to explain the system bit by bit...

For every ship, we have the first section, which is essentially the center of the ship or the core area. This could have x amount of variants. In this case, we'll have 3 variants.

A random number generator picks a number from 1 to 3. Whichever number is picked determines what type of starting section.

Then for each other section that branches out from the first (this would be determined based on the hull, not the section picked) another series of random number generates for x variants on x sections.

In this case, we'll have 4 sections, each with 3 variants. Now, the section that was picked does not allow for variant 1 on any of the sections, so the random number generator picks either 2 or 3. This number determines the section.

Then for each section that was just determined, we have a series of random number generators picking which extras/details would be on each of those sections. For each of the 4 sections, there are 4 extras, with 6 variants.

If the variant of the section picked was 2, then variants 5 or 6 of the extras cannot be placed. If the variant of the section picked was 3, then variants 2 or 3 cannot be placed. That means that for every section with variant 2, a random number generator will pick between the numbers 1, 2, 3 and 4, to determine the variant of each extra. While for every section with variant 3, a random number generator will pick between the numbers 1, 4, 5 and 6.

Once all of these numbers have been determined, the sections are placed into their places. These places are predetermined and are defined with the shape of the hull, and the variants simply determine systems and how the required shape is made. The extras are simply placed at the slots that the sections allow, where these slots are is stored in the section info when generating the ship.

Now that we have each block placed in the abstract BP format, we simply spawn it like a normal BP.

Ta'daaaaaa! All of a sudden, we have a procedurally generated ship. Now, how good the ship looks is up to the ones who make the assets for it. Procedural generation makes stuff look bland when the developers let it look bland. If you make the individual sections and extras connect to eachother seamlessly and nicely then the ship WONT look bland. The blandness does not come from the system, but rather the developers themselves.

Think of it similar to EVE's T3 cruiser system, where each of the many variants of sections connect to eachother seamlessly and nicely to make ships that still look good. That system can also take advantage of procedural generation if the T3 ships were ever going to be AI controlled.

The issue is getting that system into SM

Well, no, not rea-

SM

Yeah no then again, this is Starmade, and with Starmade comes the spaghetti-code the Skooma birthed. :p

Sounds not fun

Fun? FUN!? This is your JOB! While sure, your job currently consists of playing the game you're working on, it's still your JOB nonetheless. This isn't a matter of whether it'd be fun to make a system or not, it's a matter of whether or not implementing the system would benefit the game or not. And it would.

This would actually increase the amount of content massively and save the asset makers time. All the asset makes have to do is get the base ship, and just start replacing sections with different variants, then saving those variants to the system that's written. With the amount of different variants per section we could end up with ridiculous amount of ships and much more interesting looking fleets and factions in general, as when you look at a fleet, it could consist of only the same hull type but each ship could still look so much more unique and different.

Not only that, but if Skooma is as good at Javaing as he claimed to be and if he's fixing the spaghetti-code, then this system really wouldn't be too hard to implement. The part that would take the longest is simply adding each of the hulls sections and their variants.

And it wouldn't take that much grunt to run either. To determine the variants of the ship I explained above it would only require a total of 17 random number generations, and with the amount of variations to choose, that would leave us with 408 bits used per ship generation (in theory). That's only 51 BYTES. The actual spawning of the ship would use an amount determined by the size of the ship, since it's the standard BP spawning system. Small ships will be VERY easy to spawn, while larger ones not so much, as SM goes.

In the end using this system will benefit the game greatly as it'll be easy to implement and run and will add a LOT more content to the game as a whole, when it comes to AI ships.

 

[jstenholt]

Far from it. It looks like I'm gonna have to explain the system bit by bit...

No, it doesn't look like that, dude.

You heard the dev, it's not happening in the near future; there's no need to press the issue. Complexity isn't the issue, but rather, is this truly worthy of the devs' time and energy for the small (and dubious) benefit it would provide.

 

[Blaza612]

No, it doesn't look like that, dude.

Yes, yes it does. Everyone was going on about how it wouldn't work and would be really complicated etc. etc. so I had to explain it to prove it.

is this truly worthy of the devs' time and energy for the small (and dubious) benefit it would provide

Yes, yest it is. It doesn't matter if it's not 'till later down the line this'll be implemented, it's still a good idea to be vocal about it especially in a situation where it's relevant. I answered his question on variance with a suggestion for procedural generation. The actual system really wouldn't take much work to actually write, again, it'd be making all of the sections that'd take the most time, and even then it'd take just as long if not less time than if they made all of the variants themselves.

 

[Criss]

Yes, yest it is.

No, it wasn't. I pointed out twice I was talking about variant hulls, because in the mean time we can build those ships quickly.

Also, don't underestimate the time it takes to implement a feature. We understand how a ship would be procedurally created, but take into account the setup for the ships, the testing to see if they work and look good, and other issues that we have not foreseen, then we will begin to question just how much it's worth to rack our brains about the issue now when there are more pressing concerns.

By the time we get around to doing P.G. things could change drastically, and we could have an easier or harder time working on it. And since we won't be getting to it any time soon, these current conversations are almost wasted.

We discussed the possibility, but we never said it would happen. We will just have to wait and see.

 

[Blaza612]

we can build those ships quickly

And with those ships come the sections.

We discussed the possibility, but we never said it would happen. We will just have to wait and see.

Ja, but either way it's still guten to discuss.

 

[Theats]

I just want to take a minute and thank the Team for being responsive and engaging. I know we can be a very needy group, and we want a lot in this eventual dream game that we have bought into.

Keep up the work.

 

[Bench]

P.G Ships would have to be a new system that proceeds into BPs and integrates with templates, but also allows for location definition regarding module attachments, and associations between parts. That's the only way it could be done that utilizes existing parts of the game. If we were to look at implementing P.G ship generation it won't be until after we hit Beta, to give you an idea of how far it would be off if we were to even consider it.

 

[Criss]

I was a bit late but I am here with another ship showcase! My second favorite part of the week

Today we have the Outcast Freighter. Little backstory. When we first started the Outcast builds, we had a very different idea in mind for them. They were going to be more chunky. Like spaceship parts put together, but nicely and not like the scavengers. This is why the smaller builds look so different. Saber started the frame for this, and for a while it was pretty awful. Neither of us really liked I think, but he kept working on it regardless. I didn't think it would work. Then one day it sorta clicked. Not sure what changed, but suddenly the ship looked great.

This is (for now) the epitome of Outcast design. From here on out, we will be matching Outcast builds to this style.

There are various elements on this ship that you will see repeated elsewhere. On the rear of the ship for example, you will see the jump drive mounted on top. The engine style also matches those found on the other vessels. The underside of the engines is a large box shaped structure. This houses the power systems.

The cockpit of the vessel is uniquely placed starboard. This way the crew can observe the transfer of the docked cargo pods more effectively.

Inside the ship we have very little going on. There is a long access hallway running the length of the ship. An elevator is the only means to travel between decks, of which there are three. The second deck houses the engineering room. From here one can observe the inner workings of the ship. Armor effect systems and overdrive system computers can be found here.

The lower deck houses the crew quarters. This area is a bit cramped. The beds line the wall and right next to them we have a kitchen area and a small bathroom. The crew makes due however.

The ship itself is quite fast (for a freighter). With overdrive, and radar jammers, it also makes an effective blockade runner. The jump drive system on this ship is fairly poor and does not compare to the Trading Guilds alternative. Furthermore, there are no defensive turrets on the ship. Outcast military vessels utilize shields more, and so the freighter makes use of the two armor effects, punch and pierce. The ship energizes it's armor structure, repelling some damage and hardening the armor at the same time. (lore is fun). The ship is intended to outrun it's opponents, not engage them. If it must, it can drop it's cargo pods to lighten the strain on the engine systems.

And that is about it for the Outcast Small Freighter. This thing was finished literally as I was typing this, although it's not 100% ready for the game just yet. It is a great build, and you will see other Outcast vessels reflect it's design in the future. I am considering variants of this ship that would change how the cargo area is handled. Perhaps there could be a completely solid variant with additional internal space. Or one that carries entirely different types of detachable stuff. If you have ideas let me know. Bare in mind it must fit the Outcast lore. Anyway, thanks for reading!

 

[HorribleHedgehog]

I like it, especially the engines. As for variants, perhaps one substituting most of its cargo pods with a bunch of small salvaging drones would fit the outcast lore?

 

[kiddan]

Then one day it sorta clicked. Not sure what changed, but suddenly the ship looked great.

Did that happen to be when the thrusters and stuff on the rear was added? 'Cause that bit looks gosh-darned sweet!

 

[terra mining corp.]

Criss you need to add a rating of total awesomeness!

 

[KiloZulu]

Did it click when you realized you had made a pistol? Maybe you could make Raibenshield's shotgun ship the capital ship of the fleet.

 

[therimmer96]

Wasn't that vault station due to be in this release? Don't see it in the news or files.

 

[Criss]

Wasn't that vault station due to be in this release? Don't see it in the news or files.

No. They will be out in the next few. It also appears that most if not all TG assets currently built could be put into a release. Not sure about spawn station just yet.

 

[serge1944]

Well that was a troll.
when you said the spawn station may not come out.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

Or he wasn't entirely aware of the release plans?

Anyway, going back to the TG Frigate for a bit. Turns out from the recent stream that the things a beast.