Brainstorm This Crew: Stations, bonuses, specialties, experience & expense.

    Lecic

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    ...because factory standard is not always the best.

    You don't want to add an extra 12 months to the build time to have things reinforced, and you don't want to pay an extra 12 million to get all custom parts, so you get the standard model. Then you hire an engineer, put him on the ship, and have him make minor improvements over time.

    Talk to mechanics who soup up their personal vehicles. You replace various components with more expensive pieces, you trade out the mass produced parts with custom fit pieces, and you end up with a better vehicle than what is carried in the store.
    So according to this logic, after I build my ships, I should hide them in the middle of deep space for a few days while my crew magically increase the strength of the systems without any actual resource cost on my end beyond what it costs to keep the astronauts working. I should then be able to remove all the crew who've been working on that ship to another ship, and I should also be able to save the BP as that improved version, since hey, the crew changed the blocks on the ship, right?

    Armor and HP do not make sense as systems for crew to man, because there's NOTHING TO MAN in the first place. It's inert metals or a conglomerate of all the systems that other people are already manning.
     
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    And how exactly is he supposed to "repair and maintain the hull?" He's at a computer in the middle of the ship, not space walking around the outside of the ship with a blowtorch and some metal plates.
    Damage control. There is a central management to damage control, and usually a substantial portion of crew devoted to it. They stop fires, make emergency repairs, do what they can to mitigate hull leaks, etc.. The game effect of that would either be a hull/system regeneration rate, or mechanically easier and less prone to balance problems, a bonus to HP.
     
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    ...

    Armor and HP do not make sense as systems for crew to man, because there's NOTHING TO MAN in the first place. It's inert metals or a conglomerate of all the systems that other people are already manning.
    You've never owned an MG have you?
    Look, if we wanted to be REALLY realistic, ships would start slowly breaking down the moment you pulled them out of dock. Oxidation, vibration, thermal degradation, ionizing radiation, inertial stress, tidal stress, dust, micrometiors, macrometiors, spilled coffee, and plain old entropy all take their toll on physical systems. That includes nominally "inert" systems like hull plating, structural members, power conduits, etc. A good engineer, or a team of them can balance all of that and keep a ship in perfect working condition through preventive maintenance, or quick repair of small breakdowns that in turn prevent larger break-downs. Experienced engineers know that when screwing down a hull plate, 23 lb/feet of torque will rattle and leak air, 25 will deform the plate during warp jumps, 27 will crystallize the bolt alloy so that the heads pop off the bolts under AMC fire. So keeping them all tightened to 24 is important.

    So, we can ignore all that, Or we can model all of that. Or we could just approximate it by giving an HP buff to ships with an experienced engineering crew.
     
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    So according to this logic, after I build my ships, I should hide them in the middle of deep space for a few days while my crew magically increase the strength of the systems without any actual resource cost on my end beyond what it costs to keep the astronauts working. I should then be able to remove all the crew who've been working on that ship to another ship, and I should also be able to save the BP as that improved version, since hey, the crew changed the blocks on the ship, right?

    Armor and HP do not make sense as systems for crew to man, because there's NOTHING TO MAN in the first place. It's inert metals or a conglomerate of all the systems that other people are already manning.
    You have no imagination, dude. Also, look up "ship's carpenter."

    1) It's a game. Treat it like a game. Doesn't make sense? Doesn't have to. Is it fun? Does it promote strategy? Does it provide balance? That is all the reason that is needed.

    2) Consider the increase to Armor/HP a one-shot bonus to account for the repairs that the NPC does during a battle, rather than eating up computer resources and calculating this on the fly or having some gauge fill over time.

    3) Consider the increase to Armor/HP a one-shot bonus to account for the maintenance the NPC does when not in battle, rather than eating up computer resources and calculating this on the fly or having some gauge fill over time.

    4) An alternative mechanic is for the NPC to grant HP/Armor regen according to his level.

    5) Perhaps you'd be happier if the game had the ship's HP increase over time while you have an engineer NPC on board, up to a maximum amount equal to the one-shot bonus I am talking about. It could then decrease over time if the NPC dies because he isn't maintaining whatever improvements he made. This would be a lot harder to code, harder for a player to manage, and would take up more resources than what I'm suggesting.

    6) Look at the crew manifest for any commercial or naval ship from any era in human history and there is always an engineer who's purpose is to build, maintain, and repair the ship while the ship is being operated. Here's a quote from wikipedia:
    A ship's carpenter specializes in shipbuilding, maintenance, repair techniques and carpentry specific to nautical needs in addition to many other on-board tasks; usually the term refers to a carpenter who has a post on a specific ship. Steel warships as well as wooden ones need ship's carpenters, especially for making emergency repairs in the case of battle or storm damage.
    7) You are right, there is nothing to man. Hull is not a battle station. Engineers are repairing, reinforcing, improving, and maintaining hull regardless of battle, and regardless of breeches. They aren't there to make the hull do it's job, they are there to help the hull do a better job.

    8) Armor and Hull don't make sense as systems? The are a group of voxels, they combine into a single stat, and they can be damaged and repaired. How is that not a system? I agree that it isn't an ACTIVE system like a weapon, but it still can be maintained and improved by human(or alien) hands.

    My initial post has now been effectively buried, and so I am now done with this talk.
     

    Lecic

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    If it's for damage control, why not have an actual damage control system instead? Let's change Astrotech to be useful. It takes scrap (gives a use to scrap, woo!) from storage and repairs blocks/HP pool at a cost of 1 scrap for 1 HP in a radius around the impact point. I'd rather have a guy who's job is to operate a physical repair drone that I have to launch than a guy who magically improves the ship just by being on it because the stat list says he can improve the durability of armor that that NPC has probably never even seen.
     

    Ithirahad

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    ...Thing is, a lot of this damage control would be done from inside the ship... This game's mechanics make it a bit impractical to have access corridors that will actually get you to most portions of the hull and systems, so I see no problem abstracting that to a generic "damage control" NPC.
     

    Lecic

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    ...Thing is, a lot of this damage control would be done from inside the ship... This game's mechanics make it a bit impractical to have access corridors that will actually get you to most portions of the hull and systems, so I see no problem abstracting that to a generic "damage control" NPC.
    You're also not likely to take heavy damage far inside your ship.

    Astrotech would be for repairing armor and shallow system damage. Shipyards are full full repairs. A medkit can stop the bleeding, but you're going to need to see a doctor to get that bullet out of you and sew the holes in your organs back up.
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    Ok, you talk damage control?

    Fine. Maintenance crew:
    "Structural integrity" can be represented by many ways and these guys can do a lot. Take an example how it would look in my system:
    Crew Terminal: Maintenance. Before assigning crew to it, activate it once to save your ship's "design" similar to a shipyard.
    Assigned crew patrols ship with a repair beam or a welding torch equipped.
    - Grants a small reduction to system damage bonus (meaning you'd lose slightly less system HP per block destroyed as these guys would to their best to keep your ship together)
    - Grants a small reduction to armor damage (your armor blocks would still take damage just as much as normally, but more of them need to be destroyed to deplete your armor HP)
    - Active command from Captain's Chair: Initiate repairs. Crew will go assess the damage on the ship (30 seconds) and then proceed to do a repair on the armor HP (60 seconds) then start repairing damaged and replacing missing armor blocks with those provided to them, according to the design saved in the crew terminal. Their working speed would depend on their experience.
     

    Lecic

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    - Grants a small reduction to system damage bonus (meaning you'd lose slightly less system HP per block destroyed as these guys would to their best to keep your ship together)
    That's... not how it works. Ship HP is the conglomerate HP of all your system blocks. If you have 50% HP, you've lost 50% of the total HP of your systems, not 60%.

    - Grants a small reduction to armor damage (your armor blocks would still take damage just as much as normally, but more of them need to be destroyed to deplete your armor HP)
    Not how Armor HP works.

    - Active command from Captain's Chair: Initiate repairs. Crew will go assess the damage on the ship (30 seconds) and then proceed to do a repair on the armor HP (60 seconds) then start repairing damaged and replacing missing armor blocks with those provided to them, according to the design saved in the crew terminal. Their working speed would depend on their experience.
    Makes using shipyards for repairs useless. You can't perform surgery in the middle of the woods with a standard medkit, so you shouldn't be able to repair serious internal system damage with some guys with some welders and metal.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Makes using shipyards for repairs useless. You can't perform surgery in the middle of the woods with a standard medkit, so you shouldn't be able to repair serious internal system damage with some guys with some welders and metal.
    Bad analogy... However, I don't really like that proposal either. Repairing armor HP is a fine idea, but IMO if players want to repair a ship's hull out in space they should have to do it themselves.
     
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    I like the idea in general (details could be a bit different, but.. details). I'd love to be able to recruit not only a handful but many crew members, learn them over time, and eventually be the head of a big company that rules the universe (similar to the X-series).

    If crew members would (optionally) be able to be killed permanently, this would also be balanced in multiplayer, simply because an AI will (with the foreseeable future of this game) never be as smart as a real player, and then you can just out-gun it. Effectively in multiplayer you would loose a lot of crew to enemy players, and the game stays player vs players (and not vs AI).

    Commands for crew could be as simple as:
    - Use this console. Simple crew functionality similar to Bobby.
    - Mine everything at location A.
    - Fly this ship from A to B, load cargo from this container at A and drop it into B. Simple transport to get mining resources to a shop.
    - Guard this area. Smart turret.
    - Patrol and hunt: fly a predefined patrol route, but hunt enemies till destroyed.
     
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    As has been generally suggested elsewhere: I'd like to see crew on my ships manning functional systems consoles, providing in-play bonuses. I'm starting a new thread to present some specific ideas that lead in that direction.


    Specialties:

    • Cadet: No bonuses
    • Engineer: Energy efficiency or output bonuses
    • Pilot: Improved maneuverability
    • Tactical: Improved weapon cool-down and damage
    • Science: Improved Scanner efficiency
    • Miner: Improved mining /refining yields
    • Medical: Healing and recovery of crew
    • Command: Improved crew morale. Improved crew bonuses.

    Experience and consoles:

    In a way, you are crafting your crew just like everything else. You start out with an untrained cadet who gives no bonuses and has no experience in any of the specialties.
    • Crews gain experience while attached to a console depending on the type of console they are attached to.
    • Weapons control consoles give tactical experience. Engineering consoles give engineering experience, etc.
    • Experience accrues for time at the console, depending on how hostile the sector is. No experience for peaceful. Rapid advancement for time in a hostile sector with active enemy AIs. Experience bonuses to all specialty scores for the whole crew on entering a previously unexplored sector.
    • Crews gain command rank by advancing beyond a threshold score in at least 3 other disciplines.
    Additional consoles and effects: (When occupied by a crew-member):
    • Command station: Acts as a BobbyAI. Ship will maneuver and fire in the presence of enemies. Bonus modifiers to crew bonuses.
    • Damage control (engineering): Allows the ship to recover HP, rate based on experience
    • Jump drive: Reduced recharge time, and increased jump range, both based on experience.
    • Helm: Increased ship turning rates. (required for Command station to control the ship)
    • Science station: Auto runs a dialog on sector change informing of sector status, enemies and anomalies in neighboring sectors. Reports on ore and resources in sector bodies.
    • Medical station: Damaged crew heal of damage over time. Crew killed in combat have a percentage chance to respawn.
    • Drive station (engineering): bonuses to speed and acceleration.
    • Weapons station (tactical): Required for command station to control the ships weapons Bonuses to damage and cooldown.
    • Security station: (tactical): Crew guards position, then engages any enemy AIs or players with hand weapons.
    • Remote control (tactical/pilot): Allows a player or crew member to take control of a turret or small craft attached to a slaved mount point. (drones!)
    • Unified operations (tactical/pilot/command): combined command/helm/weapons all in one. Only uses the experience of a single Crewman. Loses functions if another station of that type exists. For instance it can't be used to steer the craft if a helm station exists, or fire the main weapons if a weapons station exists. Great for small craft where space is at a premium. Great for large craft as an emergency station should one of the other 3 be destroyed. expensive.
    Other thoughts:
    • A life support block that allows crews to be helmetless within x radius. Crew bonuses are nerfed while they wear a helmet.
    • Space plague: Picked up by going helmetless on some planets. Communicable on board ships. Easily curable if you have a doctor, otherwise reduces NPC bonus and health until they die.
    • Pay: More experienced crew become more expensive, slowly draining your credit balance until they leave you. Happy crew work cheaper. An experienced captain can keep your labor costs down by keeping morale up.
    • NPCs could be assigned to their station by the traditional c/v method or by a "t" menu option where crew assignments, including backups could be edited, lust like we currently use the T menu to combine/slave ships subsystems..

    To save on block id's have the crew be context sensitive:

    instead of (new block):use (existing block)
    • Command station: bobby ai module
    • Damage control: build block
    • Jump drive: jump drive computer (of course)
    • Helm: overdrive effect computer (if not assigned to a weapon)
    • Science : scanner computer
    • Medical station: medical supplies or medical cabinet
    • Drive station : push effect computer
    • Weapon station: any weapon computer
    • Security station: camera block
    • Remote control: rail block that turret or ship is mounted to
    • Unified operations: ship core
     
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    I hope this discussion isn't totally dead, I know it's been since September...

    I was thinking about this a little more after reading some things on the other forum (the roadmap piece) and I think there may be a happy medium between the "sims in space" and the "another thing to worry about" people.

    Some folks here probably played the space empires series and are quite familiar with the way that crew requirement for a ship depended on the total mass of the ship. So why not expand that here?

    Each ship has an NPC crew requirement that is a function of size. A little fighter (say <3000 blocks?) just requires a regular player. Once you get bigger than that, the requirement becomes one crew member per 5000 blocks (could be an exponential or a linear extrapolation). All that would be needed is a "crew station block" that a crew member needs to be associated with. If the ship is under crewed than its efficiency drops based on the amount of crew actually available. For example a ship that needs 20 crew that only has 10 generates energy at 50% of its max and its weapons take 100% longer to reload. This helps balance the size equation at the same time.

    Things like rest and morale and experience can come much later.
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    I hope this discussion isn't totally dead, I know it's been since September...

    I was thinking about this a little more after reading some things on the other forum (the roadmap piece) and I think there may be a happy medium between the "sims in space" and the "another thing to worry about" people.

    Some folks here probably played the space empires series and are quite familiar with the way that crew requirement for a ship depended on the total mass of the ship. So why not expand that here?

    Each ship has an NPC crew requirement that is a function of size. A little fighter (say <3000 blocks?) just requires a regular player. Once you get bigger than that, the requirement becomes one crew member per 5000 blocks (could be an exponential or a linear extrapolation). All that would be needed is a "crew station block" that a crew member needs to be associated with. If the ship is under crewed than its efficiency drops based on the amount of crew actually available. For example a ship that needs 20 crew that only has 10 generates energy at 50% of its max and its weapons take 100% longer to reload. This helps balance the size equation at the same time.

    Things like rest and morale and experience can come much later.
    I still believe NPC crew should be the carrot and not the stick. I mean, instead of forcing to have them, let them give you bonuses or enable you to do stuff you couldn't otherwise. Like a Helmsman could automatically recharge your jump drives after a jump or even act as autopilot, and fly your ship to a destination using normal thrusters and jump drives. Or a gunner could automatically fire the guns he's assigned to while you do other stuff. Instead of "Oh damn, now I have to go get those guys or my ship won't work" it would be "Ok, now let's get some crew because they are FREAKING AWESOME"
     
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    I like what you are saying about the carrot and not the stick but the only thing that comes to mind is smaller craft. I play on a server with a pretty low block cap (keeps fights from getting overkill and unbalanced) and adding a crew to a lot of the designs would require a lot of extra space that is not available. I always think back to so many rpgs where you as a player would always stack buffs even if you did not need to. Adding a pure carrot would just mean that crews are just another "plus" to the stats of a ship. No player would skip out on even the smallest boost which is just another added thing you need o be "competitive".

    Maybe there is a sort of rimworld esque angle where you attract crew members instead of hiring them.

    Though I will say I like the idea of a tactical officer calling out missile incoming warnings, or the likely destination of a ship that just jumped. Then there would be a nav officer as you said that acts as autopilot. The weapons system operator gets tricky since we have ai modules already. An engineer could redirect power, but why can a computer not do that too?
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    I like what you are saying about the carrot and not the stick but the only thing that comes to mind is smaller craft. I play on a server with a pretty low block cap (keeps fights from getting overkill and unbalanced) and adding a crew to a lot of the designs would require a lot of extra space that is not available. I always think back to so many rpgs where you as a player would always stack buffs even if you did not need to. Adding a pure carrot would just mean that crews are just another "plus" to the stats of a ship. No player would skip out on even the smallest boost which is just another added thing you need o be "competitive".

    Maybe there is a sort of rimworld esque angle where you attract crew members instead of hiring them.

    Though I will say I like the idea of a tactical officer calling out missile incoming warnings, or the likely destination of a ship that just jumped. Then there would be a nav officer as you said that acts as autopilot. The weapons system operator gets tricky since we have ai modules already. An engineer could redirect power, but why can a computer not do that too?
    Well, there were concepts where the number of crew members you could have were limited by the size of your ship's crew quarters. Which means, the min/maxers would have to ask the question "Do I want the convenience bonuses crew give me (autopilot, auto-jump recharge, auto-targeting) or should I rather dedicate that space to more guns/shields/other systems?" I'd rather imagine crew roles as "You're not alone on this ship, you don't have to do everything yourself" as that's supposed to be their job.

    Also, the big difference between a crew gunner and an AI module would be, a crew member assigned to his/her post (let's be gender equal here) would be active even if you're in control of the ship (from core or proposed captain's chair) while an AI turns off the moment you hop in the core. Also, no single crewmember could control your whole ship, just the stations they are assigned to.

    I still think crew experience should be a thing. For example (possible commands in bold):
    - A rookie navigator would only be able to Recharge jump drives after a jump. He couldn't (and let's face it, since he's so green, you wouldn't want him to) meddle with the actual warp calculations

    - After he watched you fly around for a while (open to debate how long) he learns to Execute next jump to waypoint when you give him the order (because he was watching and learning)

    - As he gains experience and you trust him a little more with your ship's systems, you'll let him control the sublight thrusters, and he'll learn to Approach selected target , which would mean he'd fly the ship to the entity you selected with F, and keep a fixed distance from it (say, 300 meters. That's supposed to be enough not to crash into planet gravity) and attempt to follow the target if it moves.

    - Finally, when he's a seasoned pilot and attained the skills expected from a trained navigator, he can Jump to waypoint all the way with repeated jumps, instead of only being able to execute one jump in the chain at once.

    Just like that, a Gunner could first only handle simple weapons (cannons, beams, dumbfire and heatseeker missiles) with mediocre accuracy and unable to lock the guided missiles, and only targeting the first detected hostile. As he learns, he would learn to get a missile lock, his accuracy would improve (like when you increase AI difficulty) and he'd be disciplined enough to attack your selected target, not whatever he sees first.

    A Tactical Officer could slightly reduce cooldowns on your scanner, or automatically ping it every time it's up, maybe give you a warning if you're locked on by a missile launcher, and slightly reduce cooldown on your jammer and/or cloaker if it's dropped by a power failure or a hostile scanner. Alternatively, if we don't want crew only to give flat stat bonuses, he could target the ship that's locking onto you/scanned you/uses a jump inhibitor (with a different colored HUD indicator, like missile lock is yellow, this could be pulsing orange for example)

    An Engineer could help with damage control if you get beaten up, able to perform a Fast reboot (15 seconds instead of 30) or an Armor Repair (previously only at shops, but this would take also 15 seconds) and on a maxed level, he could reduce the time you need out of combat for your shields to get back to full recharge.

    Basicly, crew should be more of convenience, and less about raw stats.
     

    Lecic

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    I'd like to have crew-less ships slowly decrease in effectiveness per block. The bigger a system on a ship, the more crew it needs maintaining it. That way, small ships like fighters or corvettes probably won't even need any crew, but bigger ships, which can support a large interior, will need lots of crew to maintain.

    The trick is making sure crew is more efficient than just stuffing your interior with blocks to make up for the lost effectiveness per block.
     
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    Hmm, it's definitely going to be an issue of figuring out what those conveniences are, which is probably what this topic was about originally. I did a little reading into what makes up an actual bridge crew (at least on world war II destroyers) and it's kind of interesting.

    You have your executive officer who basically runs the ship's crew and acts as a navigator on smaller vessels. Then you would have the ship's doctor, a yeomen, the ships master at arms, a navigator on a bigger ship. After this you split the rest of the crew into operations, gunnery and engineering. The chief of each was usually a lieutenant. After that you had junior officers and a whole bunch of sailors that actually did the work of keeping the ship going.

    In game terms I'd imagine you'd want:

    An executive officer (in charge of the rest of the crew, provides reports from other parts of the crew, can hire/discipline crew, run ship when captain is off, e.g. hold an orbit, fly to a point and wait before returning, engage an enemy)
    A navigator (Handles "autopilot" and improves jump drive range via "improved stellar calculations")
    A ships doctor (Heals the crew and you)
    The chief engineer (Head of engineering. Notifies captain of any damaged systems, supervises repair crews, improves one type of system output at a time)
    The head gunner (Controls all the weapons under his command, provides a flat bonus to hit or even provides the actual player a pipper to aim for to guarantee a hit)
    The operations specialist (Could be a tactical officer, intelligence agent, etc. Provides the captain with useful intelligence such as estimates of the capability of another spacecraft (maybe the danger/capability score, notifies the captain of things of interest in a system, tells captain of any incoming weapons, their number and type, as well as things such as "the enemy selected us a target" "The enemies beam weapons are in range and are fully charged" "The enemy has lost most of their propulsion systems" "We should retreat, sir.", "Shazbot!")

    And on top of that would be any number of "Red shirts" that can act as backup against ship invaders or to be brought along when checking out derelict stations and dealing with the upcoming pesky spiders or fauna.
     
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