Brainstorm This Crew: Stations, bonuses, specialties, experience & expense.

[alterintel]

I haven't said it yet have I
[DOUBLEPOST=1441986048,1441985994][/DOUBLEPOST]Hold on I'll update the thread prefix to suit

LOL, I think Bench is calling us out... lets see how far we can take this Muhahaha

 

[Rixxan]

Hahaha So about dem toilets and personal hygiene and weapons and space suits and atmosphere and NPCs that act like players and morale and new blocks and giving me a dollar and more uses for crew and...
But in all seriousness the first thing that need to happen to make NPC's useful is to add command chairs and bridge stations. After that the details to make them more like humans or players can happen. But when at the bridge station your character model shouldn'd disappear to give the feel of a bridge station, ect.

 

[FatCobra]

We will need some sort of grocery stores. Which mean a whole new set of competing trade factions. For get coupons if you attack one trade faction you get a discount at the other trade faction.

 

[Rixxan]

We will need some sort of grocery stores. Which mean a whole new set of competing trade factions. For get coupons if you attack one trade faction you get a discount at the other trade faction.

oooh and different pirate factions/privateers that are competing that if you destroy faction A of pirates faction B isn't hostile to you for x amount of time... Plus the monopoly the TG has on life has to go at some point when other factions arrive to make a profit.

 

[alterintel]

Food: would have to farm planets to grow food to sell at a profit.
Medicine: farming fuanua for special medical supplies to be used or abused...
Useing food ingredients to make better food/beverages.... brewing alcohol

Setup Shop to sell Food items that you've created/farmed.

Stations: connect RP space to "Toll" block
Player: pay toll for x number of crewmen for x amount of time.

Could also make an academy of sorts so increase skills of crewmen and then sell them like slaves?

Possibilities are endless

 

[Panpiper]

Sooner or later one of the devs are going to notice this thread and tell us all to shut up, it's too hard xD

How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.

That said, I am sure any developer reading this thread at this point has a tiny voice in the back of their mind screaming in terror.

In this case with regard to eating the elephant, create a plan, one with baby steps. Let it grow into the grand vision. First step would be to make NPC crew hireable and do the essential thing which is stay on one's ship without issues, no falling off the ship, staying aligned with the ship, standing at an assigned spot. (These are all things I failed at getting NPC crew to do six months back.)

Then create a crew quarters block which requires substantial, nearby, enclosed empty space. Make the limit on hireable crew dependent upon the number of crew quarters blocks (graphic of a pillow). The crew quarters block is a form of computer, in that it can be selected (C) and given 'command' of other blocks (V), 'and' importantly can be given command of an NPC (one only per crew quarters block). The NPC will spend time standing at each location the crew block has been given command of. If the block is a wedge, the NPC will sit on the wedge. The NPC will spend one third of it's time laying down on the crew quarters block (the pillow). Allow more than one crew quarters block to be linked to any given block, so that NPCs can take turns 'manning that station'.

Concurrent with this create the system the OP outlined, with crew being assigned a role, conferring a small benefit to the ship as a result, and gaining XP over time which increases the bonus they confer on the ship. Allow the benefit to stack three times, so players can have rotating crew on stations. (Perhaps some crew roles might be able to stack more than that.) Make sure that the benefit the crew confers is more than worth the space that they will occupy. (Space requires mass to encompass, which requires thrust, which requires energy, etc..)

Next step would be to allow individual NPCs to be assigned their own skin and to have their own inventory. Create a mechanism whereby players can equip NPCs. Maybe add some nifty things that NPCs can be equipped with.

Create a command mechanism whereby marine crew can be ordered to follow the player. (Marines would be crew that do not have any role that confers a bonus upon the ship other than being able fighters, however they can follow a player and will engage hostiles. Give them bonus HP and perhaps a to hit bonus as well.) They will engage hostiles with whatever weapons they have been equipped with. Of course they will also engage hostile borders automatically without being ordered to do so by the player.

Then revisit this thread and see what a next step might be. ;-)

 

[snowhusky5]

Making this game have a 'living' universe sounds like a great idea. As to the actual implementation of these ideas, well, some of it sounds pretty hard. One of the really good ideas here would be AI controlled freighters and miners, to supply shops with materials and to transport items between shops. The player (and potentially certain types of npcs which own their own ship) can also be given contracts to either guard these supply ships, or to deliver the cargo themselves, with higher payment for higher priority missions, such as protecting a freighter on a route that has, in the past, usually resulted in the freighter blowing up. This would certainly help with how shops quickly get depleted on large servers. It would probably add a whole lot of lag for servers though, if they have to simulate an entire universe's npcs

 

[GaeasSon]

So the discussion of crew leads to care and feeding of crew which brings us to consumables. Which leads to the need for renewable consumables, or farming. The deeper we go the more we are talking about an economics and ecological sim. At least at the beginning we should probably gloss over the actual metabolic processes of our Daves and stick to ship effects and efficiency modifiers.

As to the crew themselves.... I really think we should build on the theme of "crafting" where we develop our crews by playing the game.
I can imagine pirates kidnapping crewmen.
I can imagine "Rations" as a meta-item.
I can imagine replenishing rations at a station (for cheap). Or summoning a TG delivery frigate for expensive resupply without returning to base.
Do we need a "Farmer Dave" who, left on a planet, will produce foodstuffs? "Chef Dave"?
Pay and/or rations consumption should probably be server-settable. (no consumption), (consume while owning player is logged in), (consume real-time).
Similarly, the effect of resource starvation should be server settable:

• DaveNeedsMoney(yes|no):
• DaveNeedsFood(yes|no):
• DaveNeedsBed(yes|no):
• DaveNeedsAir(yes|no):

Consequences: LossOfBonus, JoinsPirates, Mutiny, Despawns, Deserts with docked craft

 

[Zaphord]

I'd be happy to bring my crew down to Daisy's Diner for a pint and some wings .

We would need a replicator / food processing block to make restaurants viable though, ones that use a basic food commodity to create different foods and drinks.

 

[Goblin]

I would recomen to split the needs of npcs in to 2 parts:
- "I need that or otherwise i am going to die/run away/kill you"-needs
Could be beds and a place to pee.
- "Step up the crew from meeh to awesome"-needs
The booze and something else than "its part of the ship"

So a Mission which took longer as expected still gets his crew home without getting murdered because there is no more alcohol.

Keep in mind that there should always be a way to hold your crew when you are not there or your money is low.
I dont want to loose the whole crew because that pirate stole my mattress - which did "not" contain all my money .. ahm ahm
I want them to be crumpy and sad but it should at least take a loooong time for them to run away.

Maybe with a sytem which values the good times:
The guy i hired yesterday is gone but not my buddy beeing arround for 2 decades...

Oh there was another idea:
Having the abbility to define places:
Not just build a cantina but define it as one.

Could also apply to:
- Workstations
- Escapepot location for the "leave the ship command"
- Ways to leave your ship.....

 

[GaeasSon]

Making this game have a 'living' universe sounds like a great idea. [...] It would probably add a whole lot of lag for servers though, if they have to simulate an entire universe's npcs

Not as much as you might think. You don't need to model each individual NPC 's choice tree. Generate random macro-events that will alter local economics. You don't need to model every pirate raid of the trade guild couriers to know that proximate pirate groups lower supplies, and raise prices. Bases multiply the effect. Random rare elite pirate squads raise that effect. Supply runs in piratey areas reduce the effect, and may earn you discounts with local merchants. Killing pirates reduces the effect. Selling a more capable ship design to the TG helps.

To an extent there may need to be Elite Daves who who are still NPCs but who are persistent, and whose stories affect the universe. Any of your Named NPCs would gain this attribute. So if your "Scotty" gets pissed and desserts, he may join some other faction. Another player may find him for hire. He might become a pirate engineer and start upgrading all the local pirate fighters, and fortifying their base. He might decide to join the TG and do the same for them, but give you the finger if you try to hire him back. You might find his body next to the wreck of your stolen shuttle on a planet you explore next year. No need to model all the decisions that lead to the outcome, just model one random possible outcome.

 

[Parameter]

I like the idea of a food replicator. It would be like a factory for food!

However, the insanity can be far deeper! Let's talk more about this "living" universe...

As far as the "living universe" aspect, the real thing you have to have is AI with needs. Needs give AI motive to perform certain actions. Basic needs could be driven by personalities or "instinct" or some rule set or whatever. Basic needs could drive an AI to do something, and its resulting actions may impose new needs on the AI in addition to providing some in-world behavior.

For instance, a trade faction station AI has a base "need" to get credits. So it considers its options. There are players around - player presence is a resource it can use! It could sell blocks to players. Selling blocks means it needs to get blocks, so it could use its starting capital to buy blocks from players or requisition freighters from the guild to deliver a load of blocks. Freighters deliver blocks, players buy blocks, station AI makes credits. The station AI still has a need for credits, so it orders more Freighter-loads of blocks, especially the ones that sell a lot. It raises prices on high-selling blocks and discounts low-selling blocks based on some basic market model it has.

More freighters come to the station with more blocks. More freighter traffic means more interest from pirates, who "need" to raid ships for goods, or notoriety, or whatever their basic need is. Pirates start destroying freighters, so they never reach the trade station. The station is losing money hiring freighters! Pirate presence is an obstacle that is defeating the station's "hire freighter" command. The station AI's "hire freighter" command is not not meeting its "get blocks" need, so it looks at other ways to "get blocks."

Maybe it uses "hire escorted freighter," which costs more per block, but adds trade guild fighters to the freighter fleets to combat the "pirate presence" obstacle. This means the "sell blocks" + "hire escorted freighter" decision chain meets the AI's need for credits worse than when it was "sell blocks" + hire freighter." Maybe the station AI weighs that decision chain vs. "sell blocks" + "hire freighter" + "create bounty NPC" + "give bounties on pirates". it could be that the credit loss from hiring a bounty NPC on the trade station and giving bounties is expected to be less than hiring escorted freighters.

The station AI makes a bounty NPC and starts offering 10k credit bounties per pirate destroyed. Maybe players take some bounties and kill some pirates. That's good. But maybe the bounties draw spawned AI ships from the bounty hunters faction. They fight and destroy pirates and fly to the station to collect bounties. Now the station AI has another new resource - bounty hunter presence! Neutral or Allied NPC faction presence means it can offer services to NPCs to make credits. So, the station AI uses "hire bartender" + "hire dancers" to provide R&R for the bounty hunters.

There is another resource the bounty hunters bring with them - damaged ships! The station AI weighs the benefit and decides to "sell repair services" + "build shipyard" + "hire ship re-fitter NPC" to repair the bounty hunter NPC ships.

The destroyed pirate ships (and occasional bounty hunter ship) are in the system are resources, too. They attract Salvager NPCs, who want to meet their "salvage and sell blocks" need. The salvagers add more neutral/allied NPCs as resources for the station AI, which build more R&R capacity to accommodate them. The greater presence of low-combat ships with blocks draws more pirates, perturbing the existing system, but it settles into some semblence of equilibrium. The station AI is making lots of credits, and nearing a level where the trade guild might make it a major station instead of a trade hub.

Then the player titan comes. It annihilates the base the pirates were using for their raids, and salvages it all with a massive beam array. It sets to mining the system of its asteroids and planets, then leaves.

No more pirates to prey on freighters means no more bounty hunters. No more bounty fighting means no more scrap for salvagers. The station gets rid of the R&R and bounty NPCs. It keeps the ship refitter, though. Players are still using it. With no pirate presence as an obstacle, the station goes back to "sell blocks" + "hire freighter," with "sell repair services" + "build shipyard" + "hire ship re-fitter NPC" as a sideline.

However, no resources and no conflict in the system means players are less interested. They slowly migrate off to greener pastures. The station AI discontinues its "sell repair services" decision chain because there is no interest. Lower player presence means "sell blocks" is less profitable, too. The station AI slowly stops ordering freighters with new blocks as demand drops. Eventually, the once thriving station goes dormant, and stops meeting its "make credits" need. After a long enough time of this, it downgrades from a trade hub to a small shop, and then to a lowly automated block merchant.

Thus goes the ebb and flow of the living universe.

 

[GaeasSon]

There's a reason game theory is taught in economics classrooms, and vise versa.

 

[alterintel]

However, no resources and no conflict in the system means players are less interested. They slowly migrate off to greener pastures. The station AI discontinues its "sell repair services" decision chain because there is no interest. Lower player presence means "sell blocks" is less profitable, too.

I would argue that with pirate presence, blocks become more expensive, because they would include the cost of bounties, and escorts. If it was me, I would buy block in peaceful sectors where they are cheaper, and sell them in conflict sectors where there would be more profit.

 

[Rixxan]

Ah Capitalism.

 

[Parameter]

I would argue that with pirate presence, blocks become more expensive, because they would include the cost of bounties, and escorts. If it was me, I would buy block in peaceful sectors where they are cheaper, and sell them in conflict sectors where there would be more profit.

I think you're right, but it would depend on the market model the station AI was using to estimate the credit influx from its "sell blocks" decision.

If its using a simple supply curve/demand curve microeconomics model, it may have determined that the best way to maximize return on block sales is to keep price low, because demand for blocks is rather elastic (responsive to price change). In that case, irrespective of increased supply lines costs, the cheaper block sales yield optimal gross income. The added expense of bounties just cuts down on the net profit for the "sell blocks" decision tree.

In an alternate retelling of my previous post, maybe the titan doesn't demolish the pirates. Status quo continues, except that players don't like venturing into a battleground system to buy blocks for shipbuilding. Demand declines, which results in lower prices. Maybe this time, though, players leave despite the pricing, because the conflict is too much. The station could stop selling blocks, or significantly scale it back, but keep firing unescorted freighters because it keeps pirates nearby, which provide the resource for its highly profitable NPC R&R and ship refitting services. Heck, with salvagers bringing in high-value block scrap, maybe it becomes an exporter of freighters to other trade guild stations. Pirates would prey on export as well as import, so there exists resources in the system (salvagers and export freighters) to meet the pirates need for raiding.

The great thing about this kind of needs-driven behaviour, is that we can hypothesize what comes out of it, but the emergent behaviors from interacting entity needs can lead to unexpected status quos, like a trade station's importing good purely to draw pirates, which provide a draw for hunters to patronize the station's NPC services. These little quirks are, to me, what really makes a game universe "living."

 

[GaeasSon]

I would argue that with pirate presence, blocks become more expensive, because they would include the cost of bounties, and escorts. If it was me, I would buy block in peaceful sectors where they are cheaper, and sell them in conflict sectors where there would be more profit.

Exactly! And when you do so, you increase local supply, lowering prices for the commodity. By defending yourself effectively, you are increasing the cost of doing business for the pirates. They may increase the strength of their presence, hoping to drive you out. They might place a bounty on you or your ship. Failing all that, they may choose to move to another sector. OR, without assistance, the TG might decide to pull out and leave the shop derelict.

 

[Panpiper]

Gentle folk, I submit we veer off the topic of what we should be brainstorming when we discuss economy models and such. I believe we are putting the cart before the horse so to speak. We want to come up with a system that gives us a reason/reward for having NPCs on board our ships. We need to brainstorm that. Once we have that, then we can think about expanding upon NPCs to create a living economic model and the like. Right now, we are likely to simply confuse the issue at hand and make the whole thing look far too daunting for our poor beleaguered developers.

 

[GaeasSon]

Aborting economics diversion:

Economics later!
Crew as a ship enhancing game feature sooner!

 

[alterintel]

I completely agree with Panpiper on this one:
1)

First step would be to make NPC crew hireable and do the essential thing which is stay on one's ship without issues, no falling off the ship, staying aligned with the ship, standing at an assigned spot. (These are all things I failed at getting NPC crew to do six months back.)

2)

Make the limit on hireable crew dependent upon the number of crew quarters blocks (graphic of a pillow). The crew quarters block is a form of computer

Assign crewman to a bed block:
Crew quarters defined by a Bed block or Pillow Block. You would then have a "RP Space" blocks that are connected to the bed block. These rp blocks would be invisible and without mass, kind of like area trigger blocks. The more RP blocks connected to the bed block the happier your crew is. Maybe even add bathroom block to be connected to the bed block. Could have multiple bed blocks per bed block.

Slightly off topic:
In keeping with keeping crewman happy, so they dont quit, you would need to give the captain, and executive officer better quarters to keep them happy. Also the fewer bed blocks linked to a toilet block the happier your crew. For small ships without allot of empty space, that ship would have to spend allot of time at a station. extended voyages would really lower moral.


3) System blocks to link crewman to, like in the OP.
Assign a crewman to system block to gain experience, and infer his/her bonus. the more experience the more of a bonus. Crew would act as AI, as it would fire weapons or fly the ship. Bigger ships might have more turrets to control, or more weapon systems and there for would have more stations that need to be maned. (I envision this system possibly replacing Bobby AI)

4) Assign crewman to a bed block on your station, or setup lodging on another players station.