Read by Council Changing how scrap works: how to make abandoned stations useful again

[sayerulz]

So, I have noticed that it is fairly commonly agreed that salvaging abandoned stations simply isn't worth the trouble since they made them yield only scrap. This is due to the fact that scrap is only used for making into metal mesh and crystal composite- these being materials that, unless one tried making a gigatitan sized brick made entirely out of basic hull, I can't see anyone ever having a shortage of.

So the question is: How to make salvage worth the effort?

Well, getting full blocks was OP. You salvaged a few stations, and you were set up with a massive supply of the basic building blocks. And that was before the stations update. Now, not only could you get some standard hull and power, but tons of other blocks, giving you an instant head start.

So how about a middle ground? Stations give useful resources, but not vast quantities of blocks. What I propose is that, instead of processing scrap giving only metal and composite, instead, Processing scrap gives a random mineral each time, crystals from composite scrap and metals from metal scrap.

This would, I think, make salvaging abandoned stations worthwhile, but not an easy way to get unlimited blocks

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

I see potential for abuse here. Take a ton of useless blocks, add them to a derelict, harvest them for scrap, convert this scrap into random useful materials.

My personal opinion on derelict stations is that they should have a chance to return the full block instead of scrap, the percentage chance could easily be configurable with a server config.

 

[Megacrafter127]

I see potential for abuse here. Take a ton of useless blocks, add them to a derelict, harvest them for scrap, convert this scrap into random useful materials.

Would that really be abuse though? It would certainly be for any block that is per-se(when trying to acquire them) worth less than a single metal capsule or crystal capsule, but I am not sure such blocks exist. (The exception being blocks one is not supposed to acquire[e.g. burnt dirt], but that case can be ignored, as in a bug-free game you could not acquire them)

 

[PreparationsA-G]

If I understand your suggestion right, then each scrap would be basically the same as 1 ore or crystal resource, which would make mining a derelict station basically the same as mining an asteroid where every single block was an ore block (which would be a bit op). Plus, since it would give you a random crystal or ore each time, if you mined a lot of it, you would get relatively equal amounts of all the basic resources, making scrap mining also a 1-stop shop for pretty much everything you need to mine.

Buuut, maybe instead, there could be a chance (like say 50% or something) that processing scrap would give you a random ore or crystal instead of metal mesh or crystal composite (That way it would only be the equivalent of mining an asteroid where (in the 50% case) every-other block was an ore block.)

The % chance could also be a server config, like Sven_The_Slayer was saying.

Spoiler: Orrr, Possibly More Fun:

Maybe each (decayed) station you find could have a different (random) "Resource-Yield Chance" on the scrap you harvest from it, depending on how "decayed" that particular station has become since it was last used. The possible range for "Resource-Yield Chances" could be server configurable, and the scrap you mine from the decayed station could have its "Resource-Yield Chance" shown as a percentage when you hover over it.

 

[Sgtwisky]

This is a topic I have been thinking about lately as well. The best I could come up with, was similar to Sven's idea. Station USE to be OP. Now they just feel useless, unless you really REALLY like the look of one and want to buy it and live in it.

 

[DrTarDIS]

or, and hear me out.

just let people mine stations. no skrap penalty. get stuff and use it. less barriers to play.

 

[sayerulz]

If I understand your suggestion right, then each scrap would be basically the same as 1 ore or crystal resource, which would make mining a derelict station basically the same as mining an asteroid where every single block was an ore block (which would be a bit op). Plus, since it would give you a random crystal or ore each time, if you mined a lot of it, you would get relatively equal amounts of all the basic resources, making scrap mining also a 1-stop shop for pretty much everything you need to mine.

Buuut, maybe instead, there could be a chance (like say 50% or something) that processing scrap would give you a random ore or crystal instead of metal mesh or crystal composite (That way it would only be the equivalent of mining an asteroid where (in the 50% case) every-other block was an ore block.)

The % chance could also be a server config, like Sven_The_Slayer was saying.

Spoiler: Orrr, Possibly More Fun:

Maybe each (decayed) station you find could have a different (random) "Resource-Yield Chance" on the scrap you harvest from it, depending on how "decayed" that particular station has become since it was last used. The possible range for "Resource-Yield Chances" could be server configurable, and the scrap you mine from the decayed station could have its "Resource-Yield Chance" shown as a percentage when you hover over it.

Don't forget though that stations are quite a bit rarer than asteroids. Right now we take them for granted, since they are not much good for anything but target practice. But on a server, they would quickly become a lot more rare. Of course, depleting them would potentially worsen the dispersion situation we have now where factions tend to move farther and farther away from each other rather than fighting over resources, but that is a whole other issue.
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or, and hear me out.

just let people mine stations. no skrap penalty. get stuff and use it. less barriers to play.

No, super common stations allowing one to go from ship core to battleship in a little over an hour was simply not balanced. And it pretty well negated the crafting system (not that there was much of a crafting system in those days).

 

[El_Poulpy]

why give a ramdom crystal ? give scrap and have a chance to get a capsule depending on the crafting recipe of the block salvaged

 

[jayman38]

I think shipyards (specifically, shipyard-linked factories) should be able to use scrap to make ships out of blueprints/designs, only more slowly than if the real blocks were available.

 

[DrTarDIS]

No, super common stations allowing one to go from ship core to battleship in a little over an hour was simply not balanced. And it pretty well negated the crafting system (not that there was much of a crafting system in those days).

Ya. That was a GOOD THING. "jump in and play" even for a noob. the "balance" was you didn't control what blocks you got. the scrap mechanic is a FAILURE and Obstacle to the SANDBOX.

Guess what's preventing player retention?

+Steep learning curve building ship
+ steep learning curve building the factory to build the blocks to build the ship
+ steep learning curve finding the resources to feed the factory to build the ship

*I* as an EXPERIENCED PLAYER Hate the new crafing system, almost made me QUIT. I can't imagine a NEW player's reaction (my bets are "F&@*#$ this $#!^ I just want to build a ship and PLAY!!!!))

 

[sayerulz]

Ya. That was a GOOD THING. "jump in and play" even for a noob. the "balance" was you didn't control what blocks you got. the scrap mechanic is a FAILURE and Obstacle to the SANDBOX.

Guess what's preventing player retention?

+Steep learning curve building ship
+ steep learning curve building the factory to build the blocks to build the ship
+ steep learning curve finding the resources to feed the factory to build the ship

*I* as an EXPERIENCED PLAYER Hate the new crafing system, almost made me QUIT. I can't imagine a NEW player's reaction (my bets are "F&@*#$ this $#!^ I just want to build a ship and PLAY!!!!))

That's a problem with the crafting system, not with stations not being the instant win button. Also, if people want to just start and instantly build a mega-ship, there is a handy thing called creative mode.

 

[Mirage]

How about just making it simple and having a 1-5% chance(perhaps server configurable) of harvesting a non-decayed block and if not successful it harvests scrap, but also change that scrap to something more useful, T1 factory stuff can remain what is is now, but for T2 and T3 factory craftable blocks there would be a chance of regular scrap being turned to minerals, something like 20% for T2 and 50% for T3. Blocks not craftable on a factory get nerfed to NEVER net anything, and/or just terrain gets 100% chance of netting the block.

Would solve the useless junk being buffed to give precious minerals, and would be a buff compared to what is now. 10k T3 grey hull at a 1% chance would net 100 T3 grey blocks, does not seem that OP or unprofit-able.

T1=basic
T2=standart
T3=advanced

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Would that really be abuse though? It would certainly be for any block that is per-se(when trying to acquire them) worth less than a single metal capsule or crystal capsule, but I am not sure such blocks exist. (The exception being blocks one is not supposed to acquire[e.g. burnt dirt], but that case can be ignored, as in a bug-free game you could not acquire them)

Converting blocks like stone that otherwise only sell for 1 credit and you can never offload onto shops because of stack limits into useful ore? Yes I would classify that as abuse.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Converting blocks like stone that otherwise only sell for 1 credit and you can never offload onto shops because of stack limits into useful ore? Yes I would classify that as abuse.

I don't know, but I would guess, with the new rocks, standard stone would at least eventually be phased out.
Also, stack limits on shops shouldn't matter for the default config, as one can just make a long journey to many many shops to sell them all and buy useful capsules.

 

[DrTarDIS]

That's a problem with the crafting system, not with stations not being the instant win button. Also, if people want to just start and instantly build a mega-ship, there is a handy thing called creative mode.

I can respect that...But: Stations don't have thrusters etc for a "mega ship" really, they come down to 90% hull blocks in the end. I really don't see how harvesting hull, minor shield, minimal power, decorative computers, and outdated docking modules lets you "insta build a megaship.

"scrap" is still a fail-mechanic IMHO. It was introduced because "hard core survivalists" didn't want an "easy way" for players to get started.
I still say that was a mistake, and a large reason why the player base has very little retention. That's my opinion though, we'll see if/when people "agree" to this post if it's a popular opinion.(too bad most of them would have already left, so not really holding my breath )

 

[sayerulz]

I can respect that...But: Stations don't have thrusters etc for a "mega ship" really, they come down to 90% hull blocks in the end. I really don't see how harvesting hull, minor shield, minimal power, decorative computers, and outdated docking modules lets you "insta build a megaship.

"scrap" is still a fail-mechanic IMHO. It was introduced because "hard core survivalists" didn't want an "easy way" for players to get started.
I still say that was a mistake, and a large reason why the player base has very little retention. That's my opinion though, we'll see if/when people "agree" to this post if it's a popular opinion.(too bad most of them would have already left, so not really holding my breath )

The thing is though, that, in my experience at least, most of the cost of a ship, unless you make it from basic hull, is in hull blocks, because every color needs some special mineral or another, which for me just becomes running back and forth every five seconds to get as much of whatever color of mineral I need as I can before going insane from boredom. Other blocks are mostly either easily crafted or you can buy them by selling whatever you don't need- which is a lot of stuff from stations. "Mega ship" may be an exaggeration, but it definitely got you to the stage of what I would call a destroyer (200-300 meters). At that stage, default pirates are totally trivial.

I agree, the crafting system is miserable, and mining is incredibly dull and that probably has to do with some players leaving , but super common stations that give you a huge resource dump right away isn't fixing that, it just lets one play for longer before having to deal with it. Sooner or later, you will run out of stations, and then you will either have to travel away (which contributes to lack of player contact on multiplayer servers) or use the crafting system.

 

[Lecic]

I see potential for abuse here. Take a ton of useless blocks, add them to a derelict, harvest them for scrap, convert this scrap into random useful materials.

My personal opinion on derelict stations is that they should have a chance to return the full block instead of scrap, the percentage chance could easily be configurable with a server config.

Wow, it's a good thing that this kind of abuse is ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR. Go and try and place some junk blocks like sand on a derelict.


Anyway, on the actual suggestion topic- mesh and composite's usefulness is understated by the community. I don't think this is how you make scrap useful. I think scrap would be better served as a "ammunition" for astrotech beams to repair AHP. Currently, the only way to repair AHP is by spending literal billions of credits or by completely scrapping the ship in a shipyard and replacing it.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Wow, it's a good thing that this kind of abuse is ALREADY ACCOUNTED FOR. Go and try and place some junk blocks like sand on a derelict.


Anyway, on the actual suggestion topic- mesh and composite's usefulness is understated by the community. I don't think this is how you make scrap useful. I think scrap would be better served as a "ammunition" for astrotech beams to repair AHP. Currently, the only way to repair AHP is by spending literal billions of credits or by completely scrapping the ship in a shipyard and replacing it.

ok, YES, make that shite useful. yes, yes, yes.

 

[Anthros1984]

Ya. That was a GOOD THING. "jump in and play" even for a noob. the "balance" was you didn't control what blocks you got. the scrap mechanic is a FAILURE and Obstacle to the SANDBOX.

Guess what's preventing player retention?

+Steep learning curve building ship
+ steep learning curve building the factory to build the blocks to build the ship
+ steep learning curve finding the resources to feed the factory to build the ship

*I* as an EXPERIENCED PLAYER Hate the new crafing system, almost made me QUIT. I can't imagine a NEW player's reaction (my bets are "F&@*#$ this $#!^ I just want to build a ship and PLAY!!!!))

I have to say as much as I don't mind the crafting system I do feel it is overly layered. 3 different factories with such a large amount of varied ores is daunting. I have been trying to get some friends into the game and they react badly to that learning curve.

I understand the reasoning behind varied resources however perhaps there could be several recipes to each block if you will. I.E You make nearly any block from a mix of any two or three materials however it takes vast quantities of easier to obtain materials to make more advanced blocks and naturally much less of rarer materials to make.

That still adds incentive to find and mine rarer materials in order to increase production rates and decrease costs but without making it complicated to build a decent ship in a reasonable time frame. That could even help with an in game economy without ending up with 3 huge power corps and everyone else flying around in space dinghy's on each server. I also feel that perhaps alongside with simplifying the factory system would mostly please advanced and noob players alike.

But that's just my opinion...

Captain Anthros