Planned Capital Ships and Motherships

[Nickizzy]

What about one of these ideas:

1. Block count

Make any ship with more than 10,000 blocks(keep in mind, a cube with sides just 10 blocks long has 1,000 blocks!) be able to "support" a factory, a ship with 12,000 can support a second factory, ect.

At 20,000 blocks you can place factory enhancers on your ship, one factory is equal to one enhancer(once you're past 20,000, you can have a factory enhancer or factory for every 2,000 more than 10,000). 22,000 you can support 6 factory/factory enhancer blocks, ect.
At 20,000 blocks you can also support a undeathinator that allows you to select to spawn on that ship*. Basic undeathinator qualities, basic and simple.

At 50,000 blocks jumpdrives start working on the capital system stated above.

At 100,000 blocks you could support a single shipyard controller, as well as 20 shipyard modules and one shipyard docker thingy.
Every 5,000 blocks after this you can place 10 more shipyard modules.

At 200,000 you can support a second controller and docker.
Every more 100,000 you can support one more controller and docker.

Did I miss anything?

Station blocks would be very heavy(10-15 mass) so station block heavy ships would be slower and act more tanky than other ships.

This would make it possible to have factory ships, and respawn ships at an early level, and slowly level the ships up in their abilities as your ship gets larger. Shipyards are a much later acheved system that would make a dedicated carrier. No complicated upgrades needed(you could use the same system for all the Capital ship blocks and systems, it might work better than some upgrade thing.

All numbers are up for debate, please don't judge on them.

*I think it would be a selection screen of undeathinators that you have acessed and are avalable(that aren't factioned against you).

2. Turret limitations
In capital ships (100,000 blocks or more) you have a certain amount of blocks you can have in turrets, 1/10th of the ship's mass(or whatever) this does not include nonturret constructs, like modular ships and docked fighters. You could have a bunch of mini pd turrets and a few larger guns or a bunch of medium sized guns (or all pd antimissile cruiser, or all big gunned anticapital ship). The one catch to the turrets is that each station block counts as 10 turret blocks(or whatever). You can't have a poopin' shootin' buildin' craftin' replicatin' omnireaperin' monstrosity(it has to either be a poopin' buildin' craftin' monstrosity, or a shootin' boomin' killin' reaperin' monstrosity:p).

Please note that this is just an idea from 8 oclock on a worknight, stay with me here.

Weapons in general in Cap ships have a fire rate based on their sizeeek. Their dps would stay the same, but they would fire slower overall. This is mostly about cannon/cannons being way to fast and small to seem truely powerful. It would bring the fire rate of c/c down to 1/1.3 seconds, it would have a much lesser effect on long reloading shots(missilepulse would fire every 100 seconds) but the larger the weapon systems the delay. Beam weapons would have the same tick rate for a longer time(this would have no effect on beam/cannon). This is just to make the big guns seem more bisquewy:p! instead of pewy.

Shot size sould also scale with damage(as well as missile hitboxes?), the more damage the larger the shot(the farther range the longer the shot?) . Im not sure about if they will effect the area of effect(will the titains great beam carve a hole in a 3 by 3 area? Will the big guns' booming fire make big explosions when they hit something?) but it would at least be astheticly imporved. Sound changes would be good as well, honestly you could just make it sound deeper the more damage it does.

Just my >200 lines!Someone actually count how many lines!
[DOUBLEPOST=1455159004,1455157361][/DOUBLEPOST]I dare you to:p!

 

[Winterhome]

^No on all points.

 

[jstenholt]

I read through this entire thread, just to see if any suggestions therein could be as bad as the OP's. Surprisingly there were some that were worse, but not by much.

 

[Blaza612]

I'm almost certain that the only "planned" part of this is the title.

Pretty much :p

Yes, just that it doesn't... Or maybe yes, if you don't like sandbox games.

You don't seem to understand, it allows ships that are OP, complete omni-ships that can do everything, and allow for large factions to use that Capital as a singular base, thus reinforcing the idea of one base living, and circumventing the empire building. Motherships are there for the lone wolves who want a Capital.

Omni-ships are natural evolution of smaller ships. What they cause should be a gameplay feature.

gameplay feature.

How exactly do they benefit the game? At all?

Looking forward for the mod api, so we can clean up the possible upcoming capital ships mess. I already have a name for a mod, the "Meta-Magic Disabler" (from "meta-data", more or less the only thing that will difference a capital ship from the exact same ship without the capital flag in the metadata).

Meta = Most Effective Tactic Available. By removing the balance, you're creating a new meta for singular ships, rather than creating a need for fleets. You're literally creating what you intend to remove.

Also, that's a bit pretentious, don't you think?

Anyway I was just talking about this suggestion. I trust the developers. I like how they made the thrusters system, cargo system, etc. Althrough the awful suggestions you can find in the forums.

There aren't that many awful suggestions. Again, a bit pretentious, don't you think?

What about one of these ideas:

1. Block count

Make any ship with more than 10,000 blocks(keep in mind, a cube with sides just 10 blocks long has 1,000 blocks!) be able to "support" a factory, a ship with 12,000 can support a second factory, ect.

At 20,000 blocks you can place factory enhancers on your ship, one factory is equal to one enhancer(once you're past 20,000, you can have a factory enhancer or factory for every 2,000 more than 10,000). 22,000 you can support 6 factory/factory enhancer blocks, ect.
At 20,000 blocks you can also support a undeathinator that allows you to select to spawn on that ship*. Basic undeathinator qualities, basic and simple.

At 50,000 blocks jumpdrives start working on the capital system stated above.

At 100,000 blocks you could support a single shipyard controller, as well as 20 shipyard modules and one shipyard docker thingy.
Every 5,000 blocks after this you can place 10 more shipyard modules.

At 200,000 you can support a second controller and docker.
Every more 100,000 you can support one more controller and docker.

Did I miss anything?

Station blocks would be very heavy(10-15 mass) so station block heavy ships would be slower and act more tanky than other ships.

This would make it possible to have factory ships, and respawn ships at an early level, and slowly level the ships up in their abilities as your ship gets larger. Shipyards are a much later acheved system that would make a dedicated carrier. No complicated upgrades needed(you could use the same system for all the Capital ship blocks and systems, it might work better than some upgrade thing.

All numbers are up for debate, please don't judge on them.

*I think it would be a selection screen of undeathinators that you have acessed and are avalable(that aren't factioned against you).

2. Turret limitations
In capital ships (100,000 blocks or more) you have a certain amount of blocks you can have in turrets, 1/10th of the ship's mass(or whatever) this does not include nonturret constructs, like modular ships and docked fighters. You could have a bunch of mini pd turrets and a few larger guns or a bunch of medium sized guns (or all pd antimissile cruiser, or all big gunned anticapital ship). The one catch to the turrets is that each station block counts as 10 turret blocks(or whatever). You can't have a poopin' shootin' buildin' craftin' replicatin' omnireaperin' monstrosity(it has to either be a poopin' buildin' craftin' monstrosity, or a shootin' boomin' killin' reaperin' monstrosity:p).

Please note that this is just an idea from 8 oclock on a worknight, stay with me here.

Weapons in general in Cap ships have a fire rate based on their sizeeek. Their dps would stay the same, but they would fire slower overall. This is mostly about cannon/cannons being way to fast and small to seem truely powerful. It would bring the fire rate of c/c down to 1/1.3 seconds, it would have a much lesser effect on long reloading shots(missilepulse would fire every 100 seconds) but the larger the weapon systems the delay. Beam weapons would have the same tick rate for a longer time(this would have no effect on beam/cannon). This is just to make the big guns seem more bisquewy:p! instead of pewy.

Shot size sould also scale with damage(as well as missile hitboxes?), the more damage the larger the shot(the farther range the longer the shot?) . Im not sure about if they will effect the area of effect(will the titains great beam carve a hole in a 3 by 3 area? Will the big guns' booming fire make big explosions when they hit something?) but it would at least be astheticly imporved. Sound changes would be good as well, honestly you could just make it sound deeper the more damage it does.

Just my >200 lines!Someone actually count how many lines!
[DOUBLEPOST=1455159004,1455157361][/DOUBLEPOST]I dare you to:p!

^No on all points.

I understand that A) You're being cheerful, thanks ^_^ and B) You tried, but I have to agree with Azereiah here, that just causes too many problems, mainly with the omni-ship situation, even with the turret limitations, you're creating a Mothership that can't shoot, again, reinforcing the problem of one base living.

I read through this entire thread, just to see if any suggestions therein could be as bad as the OP's. Surprisingly there were some that were worse, but not by much.

Please elaborate why the suggestion is so bad. Until then, ye statement be invalid. :p

 

[Nickizzy]

you're creating a Mothership that can't shoot, again, reinforcing the problem of one base living.

When did I say Capitals couldn't shoot?

I sorta wanted to make the station parts to limit the firepower of turrets on factory and shipyard ships, to reduce omniships. How could you balance that otherwise? (Im assuming by omniship you mean a warship, carrier, and a refinery in one?)

 

[MacThule]

I do agree, but again, I'm not entirely sure how we can do that. At the moment, they general cost would create an incentive to use them in a fleet, since they're so expensive, you DO NOT want to lose them, ever, no matter, etc. :p

I am entirely sure how we could do that.

But my idea of what a capital ship might look like is not the focus of this thread, and "at the moment" nothing about capitals is expensive or otherwise because this is all suggestion and speculation.



My still very deep disagreement with the push of this suggestion is not that there shouldn't be capital ships in any form.

It's that what you are calling "Capital Ships" very obviously boils down to spend a fortune -> get some buffs. I deeply believe that specialty buff blocks for any ship type that make any ship (regardless of name "capital" "titan" "enhanced" "uber") much stronger than others (for any reason) with equivalent or even superior engineering at an equivalent mass simply because of a massive, skill-free resource investment would be a major downgrade to Starmade.

DO NOT make capitalization of ships a substitute for systems engineering.

Which is exactly what you would be doing by making it cost $1,000,000,000 worth of credits/materials to provide a ship with increased firepower / shields / armor above and beyond actual systems that have been engineered into the ship.

If that were to happen (thank god that "at the moment" this is not the case) a player could - without actually learning starmade engineering - basically spawn a couple DL'd miners, go out with a buddy and grind holding down their RMB on roid fields while watching TV for a couple of weeks, then spawn a DL'd titan, slap Capital blocks on it, and *PRESTO* the grinder now has a ship that is substantially more powerful pound for pound than even the most excellent Starmade engineers can get into the server because.... RMB.

Because they can invest 40+ hours a week in acquiring materials compared to someone with actually superior skills & knowledge who has a real life. Because mommy/wifey pays the bills.

1 week, 4 weeks, 20 weeks of grinding - the timeline (price tag) is completely irrelevant. It still amounts to grind FTW > skills FTW. We know 100% for certain that WoW players are willing to do nothing but grind for many months on end to get those levels up. Grinders will do the same here to get capital/uber/OP/L90 ships, if that's what we make them do by making uber-expensive magic buff blocks. We don't need to create a short-cut called "capital buffs" that bypasses the skill issue to allow idiots with unlimited free time to own everyone else just because 10 hours a day humping that RMB.



If capital blocks do provide a massive edge in power for one ship in a fleet, they need to be affordable enough to everyone or you're saying that ONLY those with massive free time (ie dependents IRL) are allowed to have them and are free to rape casual players with superior engineering and piloting skills at will.

Oh, I'm sure... "casuals can join a faction that has a capital!" Yeah. That faction with the uber-expensive, OP capital will totally let some frakking stranger they see online 10 hours a week fly the precious pixel-baby that they RMB'd so long to earn. When pigs fly.

So really casuals will be able to see faction leaders fly capitals and act as very inferior-in-power cannon fodder for them...

...yay?



No.

This whole idea is terrible, sorry.

Properly implemented, capital ships could be great, but not like this. This isn't about Capital Ships. The only thing "capital" about them as proposed here is their name. What this is really about is massive, non-engineered buffs for grinding; flying under a misleading name that makes it sound like a strategic expansion.


Grinding for 500 hours to perma-buff a ship has nothing to do with it being a capital ship.


A factory on a ship has nothing to do with that ship being capital ship.
[DOUBLEPOST=1455214025,1455213343][/DOUBLEPOST]I will say that the idea is very creative and well-thought out though. It wasn't a bad idea to suggest this, it just isn't suitable for Starmade unless they plan to substantially change the way players achieve power from a skills & knowledge basis to a grind time basis.

 

[Nickizzy]

I'm gonna try to play the messenger here, so don't shoot me.

I am entirely sure how we could do that.

But my idea of what a capital ship might look like is not the focus of this thread, and "at the moment" nothing about capitals is expensive or otherwise because this is all suggestion and speculation.



My still very deep disagreement with the push of this suggestion is not that there shouldn't be capital ships in any form.

It's that what you are calling "Capital Ships" very obviously boils down to spend a fortune -> get some buffs. I deeply believe that specialty buff blocks for any ship type that make any ship (regardless of name "capital" "titan" "enhanced" "uber") much stronger than others (for any reason) with equivalent or even superior engineering at an equivalent mass simply because of a massive, skill-free resource investment would be a major downgrade to Starmade.

DO NOT make capitalization of ships a substitute for systems engineering.

Which is exactly what you would be doing by making it cost $1,000,000,000 worth of credits/materials to provide a ship with increased firepower / shields / armor above and beyond actual systems that have been engineered into the ship.

If that were to happen (thank god that "at the moment" this is not the case) a player could - without actually learning starmade engineering - basically spawn a couple DL'd miners, go out with a buddy and grind holding down their RMB on roid fields while watching TV for a couple of weeks, then spawn a DL'd titan, slap Capital blocks on it, and *PRESTO* the grinder now has a ship that is substantially more powerful pound for pound than even the most excellent Starmade engineers can get into the server because.... RMB.

Because they can invest 40+ hours a week in acquiring materials compared to someone with actually superior skills & knowledge who has a real life. Because mommy/wifey pays the bills.

1 week, 4 weeks, 20 weeks of grinding - the timeline (price tag) is completely irrelevant. It still amounts to grind FTW > skills FTW. We know 100% for certain that WoW players are willing to do nothing but grind for many months on end to get those levels up. Grinders will do the same here to get capital/uber/OP/L90 ships, if that's what we make them do by making uber-expensive magic buff blocks. We don't need to create a short-cut called "capital buffs" that bypasses the skill issue to allow idiots with unlimited free time to own everyone else just because 10 hours a day humping that RMB.



If capital blocks do provide a massive edge in power for one ship in a fleet, they need to be affordable enough to everyone or you're saying that ONLY those with massive free time (ie dependents IRL) are allowed to have them and are free to rape casual players with superior engineering and piloting skills at will.

Oh, I'm sure... "casuals can join a faction that has a capital!" Yeah. That faction with the uber-expensive, OP capital will totally let some frakking stranger they see online 10 hours a week fly the precious pixel-baby that they RMB'd so long to earn. When pigs fly.

So really casuals will be able to see faction leaders fly capitals and act as very inferior-in-power cannon fodder for them...

...yay?



No.

This whole idea is terrible, sorry.

Properly implemented, capital ships could be great, but not like this. This isn't about Capital Ships. The only thing "capital" about them as proposed here is their name. What this is really about is massive, non-engineered buffs for grinding; flying under a misleading name that makes it sound like a strategic expansion.


Grinding for 500 hours to perma-buff a ship has nothing to do with it being a capital ship.


A factory on a ship has nothing to do with that ship being capital ship.
[DOUBLEPOST=1455214025,1455213343][/DOUBLEPOST]I will say that the idea is very creative and well-thought out though. It wasn't a bad idea to suggest this, it just isn't suitable for Starmade unless they plan to substantially change the way players achieve power from a skills & knowledge basis to a grind time basis.

The solution to this(I can't find a different one) is to make things in higher tiers more expensive(obviously), but to also make them more complex and new to the player, so you have to learn new things to make better ships(an advanced builder will know how to make the best power setup, compared to a newbe). (There's no way to stop people from using community designs, it will just have to be part of the game.) That and adding limitaions like turret limitations and the need to be anchored is how you balance it.

However, the problem with this is because some people come up and say:

I've got really mixed feelings about this:

My initial reaction when I saw the sheer complexity and the detail was ''no, that's needlessly overcomplicated and makes what should be intuitive overly difficult''.
But reading into it, there are some merits to this idea. Clearly, devs seem to agree as well so I gave it a go and thought to read through more carefully.


I think this could be simplified a little bit. Also, I believe that ship ownership in StarMade needs to be improved for motherships to really ''work''.

Ship Ownership:
There needs to be a distinction between player built private ships and faction built ships.
Player built ships would only be regular ships - no perks, no base, nothing. Just regular ships, regardless of how small or large they are.

Faction built ships would have 2 sub-classes:
- Faction Fleet Ships - any ship of any size, fighters, drones, freighters, carriers, battleships or dropships... basically any ship owned by a faction that isn't a Mothership.
- Faction Motherships - mobile base for a faction, NOT a substitute to a station, rather an extension of a factions reach. Only limit to building motherships or stations should be their price. Cost of building a mothership with it's ''advanced AI'' (or rather an arbitrary tax on it's perks) would be at least 50% higher than that of building the same ship as a non-mothership without the perks.

This makes things simple:
Tagline a ship will come with will dictate what it can do.
If built as mothership, it can mount factories/shipyards, fleet support ships and anchor to claim unclaimed systems.
If built as fleet ship, it can be a support to a mothership or be used by individual members of the faction.
If built by a player and not by a faction it can't do any of those things but it can be used by a faction member or be refit to become a faction ship at a cost.

No specialist components required, all ships would be built with same blocks and their abilities and perks would be bound to their class. This means a lot less added complexity as there are no new blocks for players to understand and build with.
No arbitrary limits to size or numbers apart from a minimum size limit - motherships could be as small as medium size ships, whether it's a small refinery or a humongous mobile station, what you design and pay for will be your only limit. Motherships would not be invulnerable and could be captured, making it a trade off - do I want smaller, less powerful outposts across the galaxy or do I want a gigantic megaship?

When anchored, they would claim systems that have not previously been claimed temporarily and receive a 100% (open to balance) boost to their shields. This would make them harder to capture or destroy but prevent them from becoming invincible fortresses and being OP. Because of their price and abilities, they would be more valuable to a faction and it's up to them to protect their investments better. Fleet booster is a good idea for fleeting support ships and any faction ships in the sector.

I am very much against giving any ship the ability to boost it's cargo storage or power production simply by being a mothership - designing a ship should be a challenge and all ships need to be bound by the same set of rules to keep them in line with each other.

However, I would say that we should bind the energy production soft cap to the mass of the ship, with larger ships being able to make more energy more efficiently - think about it, large ship, more space, better tech, more mass, bigger reactors - it would make sense for a larger ship to be slightly more energy efficient than a smaller one. This would incentivize making larger motherships and thus give factions a bigger incentive to owning them but also drive up their costs - in the end, it's all about the money and I don't think anyone should be punished for collecting enough to build something big. But that's a discussion for another thread.

As for faction size perks:
Factions would level up their strength through acquiring more members, more ships, more resources, money, land (or influence) and other things which in turn would boost the stats of their ships a small amount. So the larger you grow, the better you are. But there would need to be downsides and/or limitations to growing larger to prevent 1-man-factions from owning supercapitals or some factions from growing stupidly large and having OP bonuses. This is open for discussion.

TL:DR/Summary:
I believe that keeping this system as simple as it can be will be more beneficial in the long run and allow for much easier balancing adjustments while also not increasing complexity of the game and ship design any more. No specialist mothership components, thats an easy slippery slope to overcomplicating everything. With regards as to which faction can build motherships, I say that any faction should be allowed one as costs of building and fielding one will be the main limiting factors and motherships don't have to be capital sized omnivessels - but no mothership should be invulnerable.


Anyways, that's what I think, keep it simpler and don't add too many things. We have everything we need, just need to background system to go with it.

Which is sumed up in his TLR with things like:

TL:DR/Summary:
I believe that keeping this system as simple as it can be... while also not increasing complexity of the game and ship design any more. No specialist mothership components, thats an easy slippery slope to overcomplicating everything... Anyways, that's what I think, keep it simpler and don't add too many things.

So you really need to come up with a compromise and an agreement, or some new way to keep away from the grind.
[DOUBLEPOST=1455233804][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, what type of

superior skills and engineering.

Are you takling about? Are you talking about knowlege of the game and gameplay concepts? Or some form of skill at the game like a chessmaster or athlete? Most established players already know most of the former, and you can't have much of the latter much right now. Is there some form of new thing you can be good or better at with starmade?

 

[Blaza612]

When did I say Capitals couldn't shoot?

With the turret limitations?

I am entirely sure how we could do that.

Guten

It's that what you are calling "Capital Ships" very obviously boils down to spend a fortune -> get some buffs. I deeply believe that specialty buff blocks for any ship type that make any ship (regardless of name "capital" "titan" "enhanced" "uber") much stronger than others (for any reason) with equivalent or even superior engineering at an equivalent mass simply because of a massive, skill-free resource investment would be a major downgrade to Starmade.

Well, you're forgetting the most crucial detail, which I've said multiple times. This is balanced/designed or the empiric factions, economy and NPC updates are out. Building a Capital will not simply be mine obscene amount of x, it'll require building up a proper empire, recruiting members, trading, attempting to get the resources from location x, and possibly having to go to war over it. Also, I think I've remembered this wrongly, but is there a sort of workforce requirement for constructing ships, for when the NPCs are out? If so, then it'd require a lot of them, and a lot of time, to build one. To build a single Capital will require the combined efforts of an entire empire.

I'm going to put this at the top of the suggestion, I seem to have not done that already. :p

DO NOT make capitalization of ships a substitute for systems engineering.

But how? Please elaborate on more complex systems that could be a thing, that could allow better engineering skill to make better Capitals.

If that were to happen (thank god that "at the moment" this is not the case) a player could - without actually learning starmade engineering - basically spawn a couple DL'd miners, go out with a buddy and grind holding down their RMB on roid fields while watching TV for a couple of weeks, then spawn a DL'd titan, slap Capital blocks on it, and *PRESTO* the grinder now has a ship that is substantially more powerful pound for pound than even the most excellent Starmade engineers can get into the server because.... RMB.

Again, empire shit.

Because they can invest 40+ hours a week in acquiring materials compared to someone with actually superior skills & knowledge who has a real life. Because mommy/wifey pays the bills.

Kek

1 week, 4 weeks, 20 weeks of grinding - the timeline (price tag) is completely irrelevant. It still amounts to grind FTW > skills FTW. We know 100% for certain that WoW players are willing to do nothing but grind for many months on end to get those levels up. Grinders will do the same here to get capital/uber/OP/L90 ships, if that's what we make them do by making uber-expensive magic buff blocks. We don't need to create a short-cut called "capital buffs" that bypasses the skill issue to allow idiots with unlimited free time to own everyone else just because 10 hours a day humping that RMB.

Again, empire shit. Not sure why I quoted this all individually. :p

If capital blocks do provide a massive edge in power for one ship in a fleet, they need to be affordable enough to everyone or you're saying that ONLY those with massive free time (ie dependents IRL) are allowed to have them and are free to rape casual players with superior engineering and piloting skills at will.

Note to self: Don't quote it all individually.

Oh, I'm sure... "casuals can join a faction that has a capital!" Yeah. That faction with the uber-expensive, OP capital will totally let some frakking stranger they see online 10 hours a week fly the precious pixel-baby that they RMB'd so long to earn. When pigs fly.

Bitch please, I would NEVER use a shitty argument like that. :p

So really casuals will be able to see faction leaders fly capitals and act as very inferior-in-power cannon fodder for them...

B-but, empire shit! :p

This whole idea is terrible, sorry.

Pls no

Properly implemented, capital ships could be great, but not like this. This isn't about Capital Ships. The only thing "capital" about them as proposed here is their name. What this is really about is massive, non-engineered buffs for grinding; flying under a misleading name that makes it sound like a strategic expansion.

You are succesfully making me see myself as an asshole, and I'M me! I applaud you sir. :p

Grinding for 500 hours to perma-buff a ship has nothing to do with it being a capital ship.

I kind of guessed that. Just don't appear to have written in the fact that it was for the empire shit. :/

I will say that the idea is very creative and well-thought out though. It wasn't a bad idea to suggest this, it just isn't suitable for Starmade unless they plan to substantially change the way players achieve power from a skills & knowledge basis to a grind time basis.

<3

I'm gonna try to play the messenger here, so don't shoot me.

Too late.

but to also make them more complex and new to the player

Again, we need ideas to do so. :p

That and adding limitaions like turret limitations and the need to be anchored is how you balance it.

No, there's a reason that was bad. You will understand in time, but for now, know that block limitations are literally the WORST ideas, ever. No offence though.

Also, what type of
Are you takling about? Are you talking about knowlege of the game and gameplay concepts? Or some form of skill at the game like a chessmaster or athlete? Most established players already know most of the former, and you can't have much of the latter much right now. Is there some form of new thing you can be good or better at with starmade?

I'm also curious with this, however, I assume that it's with the complexity of designing proper systems that can benefit your ship.
[DOUBLEPOST=1455258952,1455258552][/DOUBLEPOST]Updated OP to include something that should've been there a LONG time ago, the point of time/required updates for this suggestion to work. My deepest apologies for the confusion created.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

There's already a method in game to produce better capitals. You make more efficient power generation systems, better thought out weapons etc. Throwing on a block to arbitrarily make a ship better doesn't really appeal to me at all. It's been a while a since capitals were talked about in Q&A streams from what I remember, but I remember it being brought up that capital ships will have penalties rather than buffs in exchange for capital only functionality (ie hyperdrive, station specific functions etc).

 

[MacThule]

As noted - I don't think you're an asshole for making the suggestion. A lot of the specific implications weren't clear to me until the second day responding on this topic; at first read I just had a general sense that it didn't fit. I'm a big fan of brainstorming and putting every idea out there then trying to poke holes in it to see if it will hold water. With fleets incoming I do think discussing capitals is a great idea, I just don't want to see buffing blocks for ships in any form.

But how? Please elaborate on more complex systems that could be a thing, that could allow better engineering skill to make better Capitals.

First by not changing the strength of the ship due to its capital status. So if a faction wants a super-powered capital ship, it's going to have to build it just like any other ship. Optimize that power grid, fine tune those weapons, and layer on tons of extra armor and shields.

If we want large capital ships to take longer and more cooperative effort to build and require additional complexity, there are probably several fitting options. The first that comes to my mind would be restricting capital construction to Capital Shipyards. Those yards maybe require different construction techniques than standard shipyards (+1 complexity). Capital yards would require their own dedicated storage of course and maybe a special Capital Factory if they use systems not available to other ship types connected to both the Capital Yard & storage (+1c). Capital ships would have to be designated as capitals while they were still just a core, and from that point could only be modified/built on in a Capital Yard (+2c because of the narrow building options AND because a template ship now couldn't be DLd from community and retro-fitted as a capital - capitals would have to be unique and custom-built).

At that point building capital ships would truly be a time-consuming task because first the facility would have to be constructed (enemies scouting your base would SEE that you were going to start a Capital and could begin harassing your mining operations to interfere). Then the ship would have to be constructed from scratch; which is a very time-consuming project when you're talking about something over 100K mass with optimized systems and decent looks. So you could download someone's capital and study it in SP mode, but in the end you would have to re-create it from scratch in-server because spawning a capital from a blueprint would just yield a great large ship that didn't have capital status.

And if factories are to be allowed on ships, I'd say they shouldn't be on capital ships but rather on a large miner or freighter that could supply those factories and might require additional systems to allow those factories/refineries to function. At that point we would now have 2 specialist ships instead of 1 (+1c) to round out a fleet that could "do it all."



My question to you is "What role / function do you see Capital Ships as performing?" Are you simply looking for a ship that's tougher than other ships because it's a Capital? Are you looking for something that provides bonuses to a fleet? Is this about the factories?



Personally I see the role of Capitals as providing benefits to a fleet. A fleet buffed by a capital makes the capital ship it supports de facto harder to kill, but in a complex, inter-dependent way. Fleets would need to be optimized to take full advantages of specific buffs provided by a unique capital ship (maybe improved thrust, faster jump charge, improved damage, improved range, increased shields or shield hardness, hardened armor, or any number of other specific buffs that maybe any given capital could only provide 3-4 of... ). I'm not sure what other role a Capital might have without turning it into a 1-ship superpower, but I'm sure there are more.

 

[Nickizzy]

Whats so bad about block based limits? It's better than mass, which is anti-armor, and length, width, and hight limits, whick encourage blocky designs.

Maybe making the higher level or capital class only systems very complicated, with five or six different blocks and the need for touching lines and constructs.
[DOUBLEPOST=1455294638,1455294597][/DOUBLEPOST]I've been ninja'ed! I was the messenger people!

 

[Nickizzy]

As noted - I don't think you're an asshole for making the suggestion. A lot of the specific implications weren't clear to me until the second day responding on this topic; at first read I just had a general sense that it didn't fit. I'm a big fan of brainstorming and putting every idea out there then trying to poke holes in it to see if it will hold water. With fleets incoming I do think discussing capitals is a great idea, I just don't want to see buffing blocks for ships in any form.



First by not changing the strength of the ship due to its capital status. So if a faction wants a super-powered capital ship, it's going to have to build it just like any other ship. Optimize that power grid, fine tune those weapons, and layer on tons of extra armor and shields.

If we want large capital ships to take longer and more cooperative effort to build and require additional complexity, there are probably several fitting options. The first that comes to my mind would be restricting capital construction to Capital Shipyards. Those yards maybe require different construction techniques than standard shipyards (+1 complexity). Capital yards would require their own dedicated storage of course and maybe a special Capital Factory if they use systems not available to other ship types connected to both the Capital Yard & storage (+1c). Capital ships would have to be designated as capitals while they were still just a core, and from that point could only be modified/built on in a Capital Yard (+2c because of the narrow building options AND because a template ship now couldn't be DLd from community and retro-fitted as a capital - capitals would have to be unique and custom-built).

At that point building capital ships would truly be a time-consuming task because first the facility would have to be constructed (enemies scouting your base would SEE that you were going to start a Capital and could begin harassing your mining operations to interfere). Then the ship would have to be constructed from scratch; which is a very time-consuming project when you're talking about something over 100K mass with optimized systems and decent looks. So you could download someone's capital and study it in SP mode, but in the end you would have to re-create it from scratch in-server because spawning a capital from a blueprint would just yield a great large ship that didn't have capital status.

And if factories are to be allowed on ships, I'd say they shouldn't be on capital ships but rather on a large miner or freighter that could supply those factories and might require additional systems to allow those factories/refineries to function. At that point we would now have 2 specialist ships instead of 1 (+1c) to round out a fleet that could "do it all."



My question to you is "What role / function do you see Capital Ships as performing?" Are you simply looking for a ship that's tougher than other ships because it's a Capital? Are you looking for something that provides bonuses to a fleet? Is this about the factories?



Personally I see the role of Capitals as providing benefits to a fleet. A fleet buffed by a capital makes the capital ship it supports de facto harder to kill, but in a complex, inter-dependent way. Fleets would need to be optimized to take full advantages of specific buffs provided by a unique capital ship (maybe improved thrust, faster jump charge, improved damage, improved range, increased shields or shield hardness, hardened armor, or any number of other specific buffs that maybe any given capital could only provide 3-4 of... ). I'm not sure what other role a Capital might have without turning it into a 1-ship superpower, but I'm sure there are more.

How about making capitals can use a bunch of capital systems that take tons of space and require specific setups(ie:Advanced cannons in from the depths) to work. They should be a selection of blocks that, as you learn more, you can improve and make better(ie:The Main reactor capital system could be made so it gives massive power cap, but little recharge, or massive recharge, with little storage, based on what blocks you have connected to the group in what configurations.). They would work in different ways, some would be only personal(Main reactor system), some would work as an activatable defensive effect(overcharge system-enhances sourounding faction ship's weapons/armor/shields), and some would be both(Warp ripple system-jumps capital ship and all sorounding faction ships like a longer ranged jumpdrive, power to charge up, power per mass per sector) Most would have massive power costs, and would be heavy and large as well.

 

[Blaza612]

I do have some ideas regarding adding complexity to the design of a Capital, but first, I must address yours.

As noted - I don't think you're an asshole for making the suggestion. A lot of the specific implications weren't clear to me until the second day responding on this topic; at first read I just had a general sense that it didn't fit. I'm a big fan of brainstorming and putting every idea out there then trying to poke holes in it to see if it will hold water. With fleets incoming I do think discussing capitals is a great idea, I just don't want to see buffing blocks for ships in any form.

<3

First by not changing the strength of the ship due to its capital status. So if a faction wants a super-powered capital ship, it's going to have to build it just like any other ship. Optimize that power grid, fine tune those weapons, and layer on tons of extra armor and shields.

I have a better idea, keep the arbitrary ship improvements, but require specific ways/setups in order for them to provide their buffs, that way, good engineering provides an even bigger benefit in Capitals. However, they wouldn't be as hard as say as power, as I don't find min/maxing very fun, and I can guess that a significant portion of the community can agree on that. You wont have to 100% optimize everything, you'll just need to apply some logic to the placement of systems, that'd be it.

The first that comes to my mind would be restricting capital construction to Capital Shipyards.

No. At this point, we start to needlessly complicate things, which isn't what people want, as GROOV3ST3R revealed. Also, how exactly would a special shipyard be needed to make a Capital? At this point, you start to needlessly create yet another barrier to Capitals which honestly doesn't make sense, it'd make sense to make a Big Fucking Shipyard™, but not to make a shipyard out of entirely new blocks because raisins.

special Capital Factory

Same problem as previous one, you're just creating another needless barrier to the creation of a Capital ship, now we're over-complicating it, requiring too many new blocks just to make the damn components. It'd make sense to have to use an advanced factory/whatever the highest tier of factory will be.

Capital ships would have to be designated as capitals while they were still just a core, and from that point could only be modified/built on in a Capital Yard

Again, needless complexity. Why must they have the Capital already constructed to put in the Capital Components? Why can't the shipyard do such a thing?

f we want large capital ships to take longer and more cooperative effort to build and require additional complexity, there are probably several fitting options. The first that comes to my mind would be restricting capital construction to Capital Shipyards. Those yards maybe require different construction techniques than standard shipyards (+1 complexity). Capital yards would require their own dedicated storage of course and maybe a special Capital Factory if they use systems not available to other ship types connected to both the Capital Yard & storage (+1c). Capital ships would have to be designated as capitals while they were still just a core, and from that point could only be modified/built on in a Capital Yard (+2c because of the narrow building options AND because a template ship now couldn't be DLd from community and retro-fitted as a capital - capitals would have to be unique and custom-built).

Overall, you just seem to be needlessly complicating the whole creation of a Capital...

At that point building capital ships would truly be a time-consuming task because first the facility would have to be constructed (enemies scouting your base would SEE that you were going to start a Capital and could begin harassing your mining operations to interfere). Then the ship would have to be constructed from scratch; which is a very time-consuming project when you're talking about something over 100K mass with optimized systems and decent looks. So you could download someone's capital and study it in SP mode, but in the end you would have to re-create it from scratch in-server because spawning a capital from a blueprint would just yield a great large ship that didn't have capital status.

... for the sake of preventing people from grinding for weeks and BPing it in. We've already been over that simple grinding of resources will NOT get you a Capital, you have to properly manage your empire and actually play the damn game, and there is nothing wrong with BPing a Capital in, the cost alone will be enough to prevent people from getting them easily, why must they have to completely design it themselves?

And if factories are to be allowed on ships, I'd say they shouldn't be on capital ships but rather on a large miner or freighter that could supply those factories and might require additional systems to allow those factories/refineries to function. At that point we would now have 2 specialist ships instead of 1 (+1c) to round out a fleet that could "do it all."

BUT WHY!? Seriously, now you're just reducing Capitals to ships with a couple of fleet boosters that cost an obscene amount, again, needlessly. A Capital Industrial is there for factories and as a fleet mining command ship, why must we remove it?

My question to you is "What role / function do you see Capital Ships as performing?" Are you simply looking for a ship that's tougher than other ships because it's a Capital? Are you looking for something that provides bonuses to a fleet? Is this about the factories?

I see them doing everything. Capitals are not to be limited to just one thing, they can do everything, but in separate cases/classes. There's no reason Capitals can only be fleet boosters, why can't the have Big Fucking Guns™? Why can't they have factories and refineries and such? There is no reason, you're just too worried about people being able to get to Capitals so quickly/effortlessly, when they can't.


Alright, now my ideas to add a bit more complexity to Capitals.

My idea is to add complexity to the design of a Capital, rather than everything.

Capital Foundry - Factory Enhancers, if placed in a specific way, can reduce the amount of inefficiency that is gained when producing stuff un-anchored.

Capital Weapons - The CPC will only provide it's bonuses to Capital Weapons if there is a minimum of 500 weapon blocks, thus creating the need for obscenely big and inaccurate weaponry in order for it to receive it's boosts.

- This also applies to weapons on a Capital Turret Mount, but will only have a minimum of 100 connected weapon blocks to receive 50% of the CTM buff, 250 will allow you to receive 100% of the CTM buff.​

Capital Shipyard - The inefficiency of a Shipyard will be determined by two factors, the difference between the three dimensions of the construction space, and the amount of shipyard line thingies that are present.

- The more one dimension dominates the other two, then the less inefficiency will be present, to a total of 100% reduction. So the more square or equal the dimensions are, then the less of an inefficiency reduction.
- If a line thingy has got two others in a 10 block radius, then inefficiency is reduced, if there is less or more than that, then the inefficiency is not reduced, but only from that particular line.​

What do you think of these? This way, we add a tad bit more complexity to make people think about their systems in the design, but it isn't too complicated, to keep in the bounds of Starmade's own level of complexity. Will need more opinions on this, but hopefully it's a good compromise.
[DOUBLEPOST=1455324831,1455324516][/DOUBLEPOST]EDIT: I'm still not entirely sure what the real biggest problem people have with the suggestion is. I would like to know, especially with the possibility of what's been said above in mind. Maybe Dr. Whammy, NeonSturm, kookster, Deserea and GROOV3ST3R could return with opinions, rather than saying something and leaving? I'm looking at you Dr. Whammy and NeonSturm. :p

But in all seriousness, from what I've been able to tell, it's just a matter of either people reading the class limits and immediately saying no, or the majority haven't returned after I made the whole damn thing more understandable/better. At least Lecic is still here, and putting in... some... input. :p

 

[MacThule]

I see them doing everything. Capitals are not to be limited to just one thing, they can do everything, but in separate cases/classes. There's no reason Capitals can only be fleet boosters, why can't the have Big Fucking Guns™? Why can't they have factories and refineries and such? There is no reason, you're just too worried about people being able to get to Capitals so quickly/effortlessly, when they can't.

We're right back to it with this. You want capitals to be omniships. But not just omniships, supercharged omniships. And not just supercharged omniships, but supercharged station-surrogate omniships. I think we will have to simply agree to disagree.

And forcing players to construct their capitals as unique ships in-server is actually a very good idea for making capitals "take a long time to build" without forcing people to grind. It would also add a lot of character to fleets with capitals. But obviously that won't work when what's wanted clearly *IS* a system by which a player with no skills can grind a stack of resources and buy a supercharged station-surrogate omniship and just own the server.

My idea is to add complexity to the design of a Capital, rather than everything.

I did not suggest complicating everything. Only everything about making capital ships, and only in direct response to a request by you, BTW:

Please elaborate on more complex systems that could be a thing, that could allow better engineering skill to make better Capitals.

So you ask how I would add complex systems that would require engineering and problem solving to make good capitals, then accuse me of "needlessly" complicating them??? You realize that complex = complicated and so by asking me how I would add complexity you were literally asking me how I would complicate them, then you turn around and act like I'm coming out of left field by answering exactly the question you asked.....

Anyway - as noted initially - my ideas about capitals are not the topic here. There are many valid ways to solve any problem. Usually the first step is to identify the problem. I asked what you see capitals doing and you said:

I see them doing everything. Capitals are not to be limited to just one thing, they can do everything, but in separate cases/classes. There's no reason Capitals can only be fleet boosters, why can't the have Big Fucking Guns™? Why can't they have factories and refineries and such?

So as I understand it from that response, your problem is "How to create a ship that does literally everything in the game better than any other ship or non-ship entity." Is this about it, or can you sum up the goal of your capital ship idea better in a succinct way? Because if that's it, then I don't see this as problem most Starmade players WANT to see solved since the solution to that question will always marginalize every other ship and non-ship entity in the game.

 

[Blaza612]

We're right back to it with this. You want capitals to be omniships. But not just omniships, supercharged omniships. And not just supercharged omniships, but supercharged station-surrogate omniships. I think we will have to simply agree to disagree.

You do realize that as a part of the original suggestion, there is class limiting? I'd suggest reading the OP again, because each component is limited to a specific class, in which other components that match that class are the ONLY other components that can be placed.

And forcing players to construct their capitals as unique ships in-server is actually a very good idea for making capitals "take a long time to build" without forcing people to grind. It would also add a lot of character to fleets with capitals. But obviously that won't work when what's wanted clearly *IS* a system by which a player with no skills can grind a stack of resources and buy a supercharged station-surrogate omniship and just own the server.

Holy shit, we've been over this. Have you just managed to forget literally everything that I said in posts before the one you've quoted?

The FUTURE UPDATES will make it that a simple grind =/= Capital, you will have to manage an empire to get the workforce, military, trade/war for the resources, etc. In other words, mining for hours on end will fail to come out with a Capital.

I did not suggest complicating everything. Only everything about making capital ships, and only in direct response to a request by you, BTW:

Did you know? When I said "complicate everything" I meant in reference to the Capitals system.

So you ask how I would add complex systems that would require engineering and problem solving to make good capitals, then accuse me of "needlessly" complicating them??? You realize that complex = complicated and so by asking me how I would add complexity you were literally asking me how I would complicate them, then you turn around and act like I'm coming out of left field by answering exactly the question you asked.....

By needlessly complicate, I meant you were making it a literal pain in the ass to get a Capital ship, to the point where it'd be so annoying that I doubt that people would want to bother. People BPing in ships with a shipyard is a part of the game, and you want to remove that option for Capitals on multiplayer, which is completely unreasonable. Not only that, but a special shipyard that requires special storage and factories, that'll be used a couple of times BTW, is also unreasonable.

Anyway - as noted initially - my ideas about capitals are not the topic here. There are many valid ways to solve any problem. Usually the first step is to identify the problem. I asked what you see capitals doing and you said:

So as I understand it from that response, your problem is "How to create a ship that does literally everything in the game better than any other ship or non-ship entity." Is this about it, or can you sum up the goal of your capital ship idea better in a succinct way? Because if that's it, then I don't see this as problem most Starmade players WANT to see solved since the solution to that question will always marginalize every other ship and non-ship entity in the game.

I am bashing my head against a wall because of this. READ THE THREAD!

Limits class

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

You've clearly had a derp moment, I'd suggest reading the thread, and coming up with a fresh reply. This happens to everyone. :p

 

[MacThule]

Carry on. This is not a disagreement that will be solved through discussion. I apologize for interrupting your thread.

 

[Blaza612]

Carry on. This is not a disagreement that will be solved through discussion. I apologize for interrupting your thread.

???

No pls, don't leave. Seriously, you simply had a derp moment (It may seem different in meaning to you, but to me, it's just a temporary thing that just happens, like a brain fart).

 

[Wolverines527]

???

No pls, don't leave. Seriously, you simply had a derp moment (It may seem different in meaning to you, but to me, it's just a temporary thing that just happens, like a brain fart).

The only thing i am against mostly is with factories im not against them totally just with them being on warships

Key things i would make is debuffs

Main ones being lower thrusts

Fewer cannons and turrets

Weaker shielding

Essentially rendering them in a supporting or civilian role

Now for countering the other side of the argument it is quite easy as it is now to make super OP capital ships in single player mode and blueprinting then making a fleet of ships to support it then going to a server and gathering the resources to spawn it in

 

[Blaza612]

The only thing i am against mostly is with factories im not against them totally just with them being on warships

That can only be done with Motherships, which don't have the Capital Components. If ye wish, I could remove the ability for Capital Industrials to have buffed turrets, which considering it's general role, would either be used for civilian purposes or fleet support.

Key things i would make is debuffs

Main ones being lower thrusts

Fewer cannons and turrets

Weaker shielding

Essentially rendering them in a supporting or civilian role

I can get behind few guns and shielding, but not so much thrust. As a civilian ship, a Capital Industrial cannot fit proper Dreadnought weaponry, only the turrets which can only achieve a fraction of the firepower that a Dreadnought can. Again, this can be changed, and it can be forced to only be able to use standard weaponry, or if you want to push it a bit further, we could make it that they can't fit hard-mounted weaponry, only turrets.

Now for countering the other side of the argument it is quite easy as it is now to make super OP capital ships in single player mode and blueprinting then making a fleet of ships to support it then going to a server and gathering the resources to spawn it in

Again, that's why this is planned for a state where this wouldn't be easily possible, especially for Capitals. :p

 

[Wolverines527]

That can only be done with Motherships, which don't have the Capital Components. If ye wish, I could remove the ability for Capital Industrials to have buffed turrets, which considering it's general role, would either be used for civilian purposes or fleet support.



I can get behind few guns and shielding, but not so much thrust. As a civilian ship, a Capital Industrial cannot fit proper Dreadnought weaponry, only the turrets which can only achieve a fraction of the firepower that a Dreadnought can. Again, this can be changed, and it can be forced to only be able to use standard weaponry, or if you want to push it a bit further, we could make it that they can't fit hard-mounted weaponry, only turrets.



Again, that's why this is planned for a state where this wouldn't be easily possible, especially for Capitals. :p

I can agree with that the lower thrust is power an weight constraints i probably should have explained it better i think hard weaponry being excluded unless you are using repair beams or salvage beams and other such modules used for support. A carrier would be the perfect candidate for such a role nothing for straight face to face combat if you get what Im going for

And also the bp note was mostly pointed at macthue sorry for the confusion the quote wouldnt work for me