Add value to adding value

[MacThule]

Please factor Value Added into the NPC market pricing structure.


Why? Lack of added value in pricing doesn't just cripple trade, it cripples factions (and thus MP play in general). Consider these two examples:

1. John has cobbled together a small miner. He asks if any factions need miners, but the response is that he's better off keeping all he mines and refining it & trading it himself. This is true, so he doesn't join a faction and have fun playing with other people but instead goes and sets up a crappy 1-man faction and ends up hiding in his HB, totally alone (because no one should join him either), until the game bores him to tears and he quits.
   
2. John has cobbled together a small miner. He asks if any factions need miners, and someone from #1 Trollmasters faction says "yeh, mate! we'll pay you shop prices for everything to give us plus docking and protection." John joins up, has a lot of laughs, and keeps playing with us... for ever... and ever... and ever...

Example 1 is what happens right now in public MP. Example 2 is what would happen if trade could be profitable for player-owned shops.

POS trade isn't sustainable though, because the highest price a player can charge for refined Zercaner capsules is the lowest price the NPCs charge for them. But NPCs don't need extensive refinery and manufacturing rigs to make products from raw mats, they just magic the stuff. Which means they don't bother charging for the capital investment of manpower and use of infrastructure that goes into turning useless floating rocks of Lukrah into Advance Armor and warp drives. They don't factor in the labor value of mining pilots, the cost of the ships being used, the time value of engineers to build and manufacture those ships and the factories needed to turn raw garbage A into ship component B. No need to consider the cost of defense fleets that keep pirates from stealing all that stuff either - they're all robots, they all work and fly for free, right? Ships fly for free - no fuel costs, no maintenance expenses. "Here - have these warp coils for exactly the price we paid for the dirt we spent weeks making them out of!"

So in the end, the base price for every Starmade component is exactly the sum total of it's raw materials, and not a penny more. No value added.

Which means that any shop that actually needs to compensate miners or traders, that needs to pay guys to manage protective fleets, that needs to incentives faction members to design better factory rigs or miners is just shit out of luck!

And that is one of the central and unavoidable reasons why most players don't bother working together or banding into larger factions. There's no profit in it.

The only exceptions? Exploiter bands. Almost all of the large, inter-server factions that have ever operated have done so because someone on their fac found a good economic bug to exploit that allowed them to multiply their credit flow, and used that to subsidize huge fleets.


How? It's so easy to fix this. Just increase the base price NPC facs & stick shops use to price out their products. This is what they charge to maintain their infrastructure, pay their people, service their loans, and cash out profits for their CEOs.

Raw: same
Refined: x1.5 raw value
Basic: x3rv
Standard: x9rv
Advanced: x36rv

Something like this, where high-end goods are worth several times what the items from the tier below are. Because IRL an iPhone selling at $1,000USD only costs about $1.5 in raw materials to make; the real production cost is the labor, shipping, engineering, design, marketing, distribution, tariffs, taxes, employees, insurance, etc, etc, etc...

The iPhone, in Starmade economics though: the damned stick shops would be selling iPhones by the truckload for EXACTLY $1.5 and the tutorial would be saying "be a miner, be a trader, be an industrialist, be a cell-phone engineer! Steve Jobs did it - all you have to do is beat the stick shop prices to find a market to support that activity.... "

Sorry - I get worked up about the stick shops.

Those stupid sticks were put in as a "convenience" but they're like super kryptonite to player economics and the default game spams them like crazy. Either banish them altogether or fix their base pricing formulas to account for value added costs. And make sure the NPC factions consider value added as well. Please!

 

[Sachys]

POS trade isn't sustainable though

May want to change how that reads. O___o

(and now to read the rest of your post!)

 

[NeonSturm]

There also should be Mining-Centers which spawn in asteroid belts and buy/sell raw things cheaper than elsewhere.
Theoretically, there could be different for different orbits/raw-materials, if it is an improvement gameplay-wise.

Then, there might be TG sectors dedicated to manufracturing basic supplies.
Power, Thrust, Shipcores, Basic Armor ...
They import some standard things but charge a higher cost for these (1.5x of what basic manufacturing sectors would charge).
... just the starter shops ...

With raw mats having a price, they already pay miners. And mining-center infrastructure.

Standard+Advanced manufacturing should include demand&supply.
Basically every block inherits some demand&supply stats which origin from a server-config plus (later in developement) some real stats.
TG charges extra for variation in demand and supply.
TG charges extra at least 50%. For demand&supply variation it means that the first 75-100% extra are compacted into 25-50%.
Advanced stuff has double charges or even triple charges.


At last, you may have TG-vouchers.
For being active/online/login, doing anything you get same or varying amounts per play-time.
For selling or buying anything, these vouchers are used up.
After they are used up, trading is either disabled or 20% less rewarding (tax on credit-in+output)
These vouchers can also be replaced by bonus credits for selling up-to-date scan data with diminishing returns per day/player.

Or you can select a role like miner/trader/... and that gives you benefits by buying/selling specific materials or products.

 

[Edymnion]

Honestly I'd like to see random shop price ranges become default again.

I liked the idea that someone who wants to could simply fly from one shop to another buying and selling goods. Especially now that cargo space is a required thing, the ability for someone to actually play as a freighter captain if they wanted would be great.

 

[Sachys]

The only exceptions? Exploiter bands. Almost all of the large, inter-server factions that have ever operated have done so because someone on their fac found a good economic bug to exploit that allowed them to multiply their credit flow, and used that to subsidize huge fleets.

I'm convinced there must be some of this still going on tbh. Just the other week somebody in server chat labelled everybody who DOESNT use credits as "dumb". Yet flying round stickshop to stickshop is pretty much a slow way to get your goods right now as far as the vanilla game is concerned, so there must be some exploitation at play for this to work for factions (rather than mine and use logistics chambers on both the miner and factory station - which is now stupidly quick).

Another thing - I think ores and caps should be removed from sale entirely. People dont want to buy the finished product because they see it costing a lot right now. If they were removed, people would have to run the risk of trading direct, or buying a finished product (thereby supporting an economy like you describe) or just learning to mine. Should keep down bigger faction ship spam too.

 

[NeonSturm]

Honestly I'd like to see random shop price ranges become default again.

I liked the idea that someone who wants to could simply fly from one shop to another buying and selling goods. Especially now that cargo space is a required thing, the ability for someone to actually play as a freighter captain if they wanted would be great.

That would be better with meta-items.

You could have some special food items or special clothing from one faction and customers in another.
So every faction could make their export-products and the further you travel the rarer the customers become but also the more they pay (up to 200% maybe).

 

[Sachys]

I liked the idea that someone who wants to could simply fly from one shop to another buying and selling goods. Especially now that cargo space is a required thing, the ability for someone to actually play as a freighter captain if they wanted would be great.

Shops would have to be much much rarer for that to work in a balanced way though.

 

[MacThule]

I liked the idea that someone who wants to could simply fly from one shop to another buying and selling goods. Especially now that cargo space is a required thing, the ability for someone to actually play as a freighter captain if they wanted would be great.

This is a huge bucket list item for me!

Random NPC prices still prevent other players who want to from simply setting up an excellent factory+shop rig and making money from that though... An economy where players could legitimately outprice the AI would involve tons of opportunity for players to earn flying trade runs. Because if I'm selling Zercaner caps at 9% below the lowest NPC buy value, the only way I even make money is if I fly the trade, or other players come to my shop, buy my refined caps, and then fly out to resell them at a profit. I win, the trader wins, the miner who sold me the raw ore wins... only the robot shops lose, but seriously fuck them. AI - NPC empires don't buy games and don't make MP fun unless their existence somehow facilitates player activity. Otherwise they're just decoration that occasionally causes lag.

I'd rather see trading, mining, manufacturing, and curating shops ALSO become viable, than just randomize prices so trading is possible. Plus, it'd be less tedious since traders would know the shops to check for deals, rather than exhaustively grinding through hundreds of NPC shops to see who has deals, who has stock, who is buying, etc.

I'm convinced there must be some of this still going on tbh.

Same. Because it always has been, they don't tend to report such bugs to devs, and when they do it's usually not made public until after a particular bug is fixed.

Resources make the game go round.

If the only factions that consistently hold player groups together who aren't pre-existing RL friends or guild-mates or whatever are those using resource or credit exploits, it's probably an indicator that economics are the major choke point hampering MP activity. It's also a bit of a red flag for server admins to look more closely at any super-successful & large factions... though all too often such factions include mod or admin alts in their ranks, which at the end of the day is the only exploit needed even when the code is performing perfectly. Of course, soften the economic choke-out for non-cheaters and the edge for cheaters is reduced. Look at a really fun PvP game like Starcraft I/II where players compete on very even fields - economy is basically automatic, all you do is send out drones and the difference in strategy is about how much you allocate to economic expansion versus early military. In Starmade we succeed based on how many hours we have to blow grinding out resources by hand, or whether we decide to cheat or ally with cheaters for free resources. Imbalance from the word 'go' even if you assume that 90% of wealthy players don't cheat, because then it just comes down to grind time, still not engineering or strategic decision-making.

MP needs profitable player trade & unloaded drone mining so that everyone can create good income streams without grinding roids all day. In an open market, supply and demand will ensure that mining remains viable and necessary because the less people do it, the more profitable it becomes. The shop-centric, AI dominated economy is stifling and prevents any real player industrial or trade ventures. They should probably even eliminate all the stick shops from the game, including the spawn shop and just put the Trader's HB at spawn and make the NPCs set up additional trading posts in and near their territories (with legit prices that look like someone profited somewhere along the line and like the guys flying patrol for them are being paid and can feed their families).

 

[NeonSturm]

The first part of your post is like-able MacThule, but not so much the second half.

Stick-Shops are good way to give players equal footing if the TG intends that via mechanics.
Robot-economy may provide individuals a base to have fun and continue onward.


You just need to give players quests that value their ingame time. NOT those quests of other games where you have to kill 10 of typeX mobs or run 5km into that direction without getting stabbed by high-level-mobs.

I mean missions which can be taken BTW. MANY scan systemXYZ for Xcr at shopY.
You play normally and when you visit a shop you get some CR which gives you some blocks.

Or perhaps you have a "Father/Bro/Sis" which gives you some supply for helping them out.
But don't ask in which shady way they got these blocks.

 

[MacThule]

The first part of your post is like-able MacThule, but not so much the second half.

Stick-Shops are good way to give players equal footing if the TG intends that via mechanics.
Robot-economy may provide individuals a base to have fun and continue onward.


You just need to give players quests that value their ingame time. NOT those quests of other games where you have to kill 10 of typeX mobs or run 5km into that direction without getting stabbed by high-level-mobs.

I mean missions which can be taken BTW. MANY scan systemXYZ for Xcr at shopY.
You play normally and when you visit a shop you get some CR which gives you some blocks.

Or perhaps you have a "Father/Bro/Sis" which gives you some supply for helping them out.
But don't ask in which shady way they got these blocks.

I think that's a good mechanic, and hopefully, eventually, there will be missions in the game to provide infusions of cash and resources! To me it's mostly a single-player mechanic, but I know a lot of people will like to run missions in MP also. It shouldn't be the main way to make money though, because that forces people to play the game like an MMORPG. I like the option being there, but once you go down that path as a forced activity then you always need more and more missions and story content because RPGs get dull without that. That's a ton of developer work ($) for something that players could be generating on their own if properly supported (i.e. content).


The NPC factions sell huge amounts of resources. What is it about stick shops that you feel you need which you can't get from NPC trade stations? The credits, I think?


I think stick shops should be available as a server setting, because a lot of people are just... habituated to them, but I think they should be turned off by default at this point and NPCs moved into the primary trade role and used for cash infusion by paying high prices for resources and components (which they then turn into more fleets and territory). So many reasons stick shops are a bad element of the game; stick shops are unrealistic so they break immersion; they look unrealistic; they have magic supply; they're invulnerable; there are 10+ per system, which is just absurd; they each carry stock of every kind of item but not enough to do anything with so there MUST be 10+ per system and you have to fly to them all for 30 minutes to get what you need most times... instead of having 1 shop every 10 systems that carries 100x as much of everything as the little sticks.

They just don't work well IMO. And as I understand it, they were always meant to be basically a stop-gap measure to ensure players had access to resources until Schine could create something better. The NPCs are better; even one small faction of NPCs works better. Sure, then you can't be mining on the outer rim and pop over to the nearest corner store for some components, but... that's super unrealistic anyway. It makes space feel small, like one city with shops on every streetcorner.

With fixed prices, stick shops would probably support a player economy, yeah, but they're obsolete anyway. Most players don't even use credits and just produce everything in-house at their HB, exactly because the economy is broken (by shops).

 

[NeonSturm]

Actually I don'T even like the credit system IRL.

Peoples should do what they are best at, earn some kind of "trade commodity" ... german word "Geld" is abstracted from "Gold" and was originally trade papers for gold you left at your bank or papers you could use to get it back when needed.
But now "Geld" lost the "G-old" behind it.

So ingame, we call it credits, which comes from credit-ability.
You did something to deserve credits. The more credits you have, the more someone can get credits from impressing you.
This favors also a hierarchy where one ruler takes all peoples credits.


Ideally, you had "loyalty vouchers" which come from being "constructive toward a faction".
The faction would share gain between itself and you, so you get 30% to 70% loyalty vouchers depending on how good you trade. Ideally, you can buy export products to gain all value for your own or other import products with high demand and lose some.

But if these vouchers exist IRL, the faction can write your name on them (or if they are digital passwords, list your name in the database in which entry they are keys to). If you transfer them to someone else, they lose value.
Lets just assume for simplicity that personal-ID-thefts are near impossible and only occur when admins act like digital gods with their banhammer scripts.

So maybe you can send a merchant which has your signature to allow him trading for you and they keep value for that trade
(doesnt matter how. maybe over quantum instant-universe encrypted channels).​

But most important is, that the factions themselves are in charge of taxes, inflation, their own credibility that appends on that and what else.

--- result ---

The foundation would be that only 10% or 20% of a faction's assets can be converted to vouchers.
If it is more, it causes inflation through enforced exchange rates to a new voucher-timestamp with less value.

And if you help a faction gain 100 shield capacitor blocks, you can only get vouchers for 50 +20 extra for your effort. But if they export rechargers, you gain about 100 of these because of demand/supply-variation. In special events maybe only 80 or even 120.

A faction must always be themselves first, egoistic.
But also keep allies as allies instead of turning them off.

Loyalty would be like a percentage, not like an absolute number. You can never get that much loyalty to exhaust your allies. Only ever 5% of assets (when total is 20%) or they start inflation and print new vouchers.
The opposite reaction would be founding of an alliance / faction-merge.

 

[MacThule]

Actually I don'T even like the credit system IRL.

Peoples should do what they are best at, earn some kind of "trade commodity" ... german word "Geld" is abstracted from "Gold" and was originally trade papers for gold you left at your bank or papers you could use to get it back when needed.
But now "Geld" lost the "G-old" behind it.

So ingame, we call it credits, which comes from credit-ability.
You did something to deserve credits. The more credits you have, the more someone can get credits from impressing you.
This favors also a hierarchy where one ruler takes all peoples credits.


Ideally, you had "loyalty vouchers" which come from being "constructive toward a faction".
The faction would share gain between itself and you, so you get 30% to 70% loyalty vouchers depending on how good you trade. Ideally, you can buy export products to gain all value for your own or other import products with high demand and lose some.

But if these vouchers exist IRL, the faction can write your name on them (or if they are digital passwords, list your name in the database in which entry they are keys to). If you transfer them to someone else, they lose value.
Lets just assume for simplicity that personal-ID-thefts are near impossible and only occur when admins act like digital gods with their banhammer scripts.

So maybe you can send a merchant which has your signature to allow him trading for you and they keep value for that trade
(doesnt matter how. maybe over quantum instant-universe encrypted channels).​

But most important is, that the factions themselves are in charge of taxes, inflation, their own credibility that appends on that and what else.

--- result ---

The foundation would be that only 10% or 20% of a faction's assets can be converted to vouchers.
If it is more, it causes inflation through enforced exchange rates to a new voucher-timestamp with less value.

And if you help a faction gain 100 shield capacitor blocks, you can only get vouchers for 50 +20 extra for your effort. But if they export rechargers, you gain about 100 of these because of demand/supply-variation. In special events maybe only 80 or even 120.

A faction must always be themselves first, egoistic.
But also keep allies as allies instead of turning them off.

Loyalty would be like a percentage, not like an absolute number. You can never get that much loyalty to exhaust your allies. Only ever 5% of assets (when total is 20%) or they start inflation and print new vouchers.
The opposite reaction would be founding of an alliance / faction-merge.

First of all - very much yes; IRL the fiat currency system is a shit-show and nothing but a machine to grind humanity under a new form of slavery. I'm very much in your camp on this point, and appreciate that you've educated yourself regarding the history of the relevant institutions. Most individuals educated in the history and application of currency also understand that the current credit system we use is a farce; a rigged numbers game.

As regards the game; I like your ideas, but I think they're too complicated on both developer and player sides. Just... too many conditions, not bad.

But.

By making the economy player-driven, we would create a situation where factions were essentially in charge of the economy anyway. From personal experience, managing faction resources through a private shop allows you to set percentages of tax/profit from various kinds of trade anyway. So if trade is player-driven, and players are working in collectives (factions), the faction shop owners are totally able to make create such 'conditions' on their own already. It just puts control in the hands of the people, and leaves it more flexible. Plus, well-managed factions will out-perform poorly managed ones, which encourages electing competent leaders (not just guys who fly impressively big ships).

I think that our goals are very similar, but I believe that they are probably more easily accomplished by just letting the factions and players run things rather than creating a top-down system that tells factions HOW to tax their people and stuff.

 

[NeonSturm]

I think that our goals are very similar, but I believe that they are probably more easily accomplished by just letting the factions and players run things rather than creating a top-down system that tells factions HOW to tax their people and stuff.

Generally I agree. But I doubt that young players have the accumulated intelligence/knowledge/wisdom required for such a step without support from a guide generated by thinkers dedicated to the topic.
They for sure try out things and grow. But they overbalance things with the variables they know in ignorance of those they couldn't explore jet. Or the other extreme - they are so careful, only adding one thing, so that they don't ever see the alternative.

Machines are there to be used.
Peoples are there to be loved.
Machines are being abused.
Peoples distracted from love.
Machines rule.
Peoples fear.
Society falls apart or ultimately remembers value of themselves.

If we don't see a world full of love and harmony, we cannot grow but egocentric.
Only if we have free time or urgent need, we start exploring.

Free time lets us create beautiful things full of harmony - sustainable forms of life and uniqueness.
Urgent need creates machines of control, power and disharmony - imbalance of power, war and hatred, disassociation&exploitation.