A Manifesto on Fuel, Balancing, and Various Play Styles

[Master_Artificer]

could use a poll to see what people think about this.

 

[Valiant70]

could use a poll to see what people think about this.

Yeah, but that's not really the purpose of this thread. It's more to get people thinking. If you want to make a suggestion thread for fuel and link this thread, that'd be a good place for a poll.

 

[AtraUnam]

After reading this manifesto I have changed my mind about fuel but on one condition. If I'm willing to put up with the sheer bulk and mass of them, I should be allowed to run my ship with solar panels instead of antimatter.

 

[Dark_Inquisitor]

After reading this manifesto I have changed my mind about fuel but on one condition. If I'm willing to put up with the sheer bulk and mass of them, I should be allowed to run my ship with solar panels instead of antimatter.

Yeah, I think that we should be able to at least make self-sufficient civ ships (like, transporters. Miners could use batteries for the time you use salvaging cannons)

 

[Valiant70]

After reading this manifesto I have changed my mind about fuel but on one condition. If I'm willing to put up with the sheer bulk and mass of them, I should be allowed to run my ship with solar panels instead of antimatter.

Yeah, whatever shape this takes, it should allow for self-sufficient ships with mass and size drawbacks.

 

[DrTarDIS]

Capships obviously use a lot of fuel. To field one, a faction must take into account the cost in fuel and the potential to use this fuel for something else, like several battleships instead of a titan and a few frigates. This is more dynamic and interesting than an artificial limit on ships because a lot of things can affect fuel supply.

Bravo. +1 A use for all those "placeholder" blocks.

Of course, one thing that can affect your fuel supply is other factions attacking your fuel sources and taking them. Here’s another interesting factor: the nature of fuel sources...

Are we talking Bussard collecters / ramscoops, crystal power, zero point(the current method of power, note: "unlimited" like below but that softcap...), fission/fusion, entropic, blood magic......? A use for all those "placeholder" blocks...

Now what if there were an entirely unlimited fuel source...conflict over fuel is still not likely unless someone is just being a...

...so...like now? "dock it or lose it' is a thing but you're right, faction raiding is usually for "silly" reasons like lazy trolls or vendettas instead of "realistic" reasons like 'oil' or 'parstun'

Next, think of a similar inexhaustible fuel source, but imagine that there is a limit to how much the source produces in a given amount of time....Cool war zone, bro. This is my favorite option as it drives faction interaction and conflict harder than the others...and planets will be popular for bases before you know it.

Posible. Equally possible the nebulas we see in the enhanced skybox could become an equivalent cool place to homebase: keep collecting those exotic particles.

 

[NeonSturm]

I think we should use sun-wind particles as fuel.

Unlimited constant supply to stations or ships parking in a sun's orbit.

Reload : Biggest*Smallest Dimension = 2D
Drain : Based on Mass = Volume = 3D

 

[Megacrafter127]

Reload : Biggest*Smallest Dimension = 2D

I think factoring in the direction towards the sun also is a good idea. (A flat solar panel (assuming 100% panel efficiency) can easily generate lots of power, if it is oriented accordingly. Turn it by 90° and it cannot generate any power anymore.

 

[Runeseer]

I flat out reject the idea of "fuel" as being a needed element to StarMade.

The amount of complexity that this would add to the application is staggering.
Server configuration
Ship mass calculations
Fuel expenditure rates

Three elements compose the equation of power in StartMade Ship/System Design, skill and Block Count.

You want to add a fourth (fuel) thinking that it would be a great equalizer. I submit that all it does is add complexity and an additional resource gathering time sink.

Players will opt NOT to play under this level of control. Individualism runs too strong in creative games like this. Rather then gathering together to slave under imposed fuel oppression, they will flock to servers where it is not required.

 

[NeonSturm]

I think factoring in the direction towards the sun also is a good idea. (A flat solar panel (assuming 100% panel efficiency) can easily generate lots of power, if it is oriented accordingly. Turn it by 90° and it cannot generate any power anymore.

Might be a problem for stations since you may not be able to put solar cells on 45° angles.

I would also be happy if half this area in solar cell blocks would give 100% possible solar energy + no position enforced.

Players will opt NOT to play under this level of control. Individualism runs too strong in creative games like this. Rather then gathering together to slave under imposed fuel oppression, they will flock to servers where it is not required.

I just hate the flat infinite energy option with no alternatives.

I don't like fuel which you have to mine from finite asteroids or planets either, but some balanced variation of infinite energy sources and storages would make the game more interesting.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Might be a problem for stations since you may not be able to put solar cells on 45° angles.

I would also be happy if half this area in solar cell blocks would give 100% possible solar energy + no position enforced.

I wasn't imagining that. I was just thinking, that all of the dimensions(as vectors) are projected onto a plain perpendicular to the vector between the star and the station, and then those 3 vectors are used to calculate the total energy generation(maybe in the way you described in your earlier post), but I was more thinking along (|(A×B)|+|(A×C)|+|(B×C)|)*multiplier. [please note the difference between × and *]

 

[aRottenKomquat]

I'd like to see fuel added to the game, and I'd definitely like to see multiple types of reactors and fuels with different efficiencies. I'd certainly like to see buffed power capacitors to make battery-operated starships feasible for some circumstances, and I agree fuel should be a server option so operators can run unlimited fuel servers if they wish.

Here are some obvious power source ideas. I'm not saying we need these, just tossing ideas out there. Some may work better than others, and some may be stupid ideas which need to be ignored. Importantly, I'd like there to be a variety of reactors and fuel types, with some of the more advanced ideas set up to turn some system types into strategic resources.

Turbine: A cheap generator of low efficiency which runs on combustible minerals (space petroleum!) that are extremely plentiful throughout the universe. Okay for starters and small, short-range ships, but could be a logistical nightmare for large or long-range operations.

Fission: Basic reactor type, requires fissionable fuel which is fairly plentiful from planets and asteroids. Better power output and efficiency than turbines.

Fusion: More efficient and powerful than fission but the fuel is hydrogen isotopes that can only be found in gas giants. A bit more difficult to acquire fuel for than fission, and turns gas giants into strategic resources. Within this list, this would probably be the most prevalent reactor type for factions with access to gas giants.

Antimatter: The most powerful and efficient reactor in the game, and extremely expensive to build. Requires fuel which is only found in black hole systems, making black hole systems an important strategic resource. These can also be dangerous, and create large explosions when destroyed, so antimatter reactors need to be well-armored for combat use. Almost a requirement for very large stations or titan starships.

Solar: Cheap, will work well for ships or stations that operate close to a star. Different star colors/sizes should affect the amount of solar energy recovered by solar panels.

Geothermal: This idea is genius if you ask me! Excellent power source for ground bases.

Quantum Generator: Generates power from the quantum vacuum. Extremely expensive to build and requires rare resources (perhaps requiring refinement in the area of a black hole?) for construction. Uses no fuel whatsoever, produces a steady but low amount of power. Useful for small ships or stations that have mild energy requirements and want to operate without fuel management.

 

[Lecic]

I flat out reject the idea of "fuel" as being a needed element to StarMade.

The amount of complexity that this would add to the application is staggering.
Server configuration
Ship mass calculations
Fuel expenditure rates

Three elements compose the equation of power in StartMade Ship/System Design, skill and Block Count.

You want to add a fourth (fuel) thinking that it would be a great equalizer. I submit that all it does is add complexity and an additional resource gathering time sink.

Players will opt NOT to play under this level of control. Individualism runs too strong in creative games like this. Rather then gathering together to slave under imposed fuel oppression, they will flock to servers where it is not required.

Just because YOU think fuel would be something people wouldn't enjoy playing with doesn't mean everyone wouldn't enjoy playing with fuel. The large amount of support for this thread and frequent suggestions for fuel show this.

 

[DraconisDomini]

I like the idea of adding fuel, and certainly after reading through I think an inexhaustible but limited fuel source would be probably be best (with server config options to set the limit). I had initially been thinking that a nice idea might be to have the ability to use solar power and have solar powered stations that produce fuel which you can then use for your ships, but it might be difficult to have a sensible limit on that.

I wonder though whether some kind of station fuel production might work with other forms of fuel gathering as well. The fuel source would have some inherent limit on its rate of production, but in order to exploit that you need to build a station(s) to extract the fuel. Larger fuel sources would need a larger station/multiple stations to be fully exploited. One could also have a less efficient gathering system for ships so that people aren't completely tied to stations. This would mean factions couldn't just claim a huge number of systems and harvest massive amounts of fuel, they would actually have to put some work into developing those fuel sources. This would also allow for additional tactics in a faction war, as well as trying to capture fuel sources, one could also simply deny them to the enemy by destroying the stations. I do realise though that this latter point might bring its own problems similar to the issue with warp gates so that might be a mark against it.

 

[NeonSturm]

I like the black-hole idea for refining/gaining fuel.

But I do NOT like to increase capacitors capacity.
Instead there should be dedicated a fuel-tank.

We also do NOT need a special low-efficiency collector.
Just limit efficiency per block to the percentage of time ships are
[INDENT]near Stars / Black-Holes compared to 100% with a station.

[/INDENT]

Cores need to have "Quantum Generator"s, else you may be trapped in the middle of no-where.
But you can't limit these to Black-Hole-Systems (production).

• An alternative:
• The core of Star-Ships could have an Escape-Void feature that draws the ship very slowly (5% max speed?) to the next star system.

 

[lupoCani]

What with all we hear about mining fuel from gas giants, planets and asteroids, I'm surprised I've never heard of anyone suggesting the obvious alternative- stars. Not seeping energy from solar panels or wind sails. We could be harvesting hydrogen from the actual, physical, burning massives directly. Smaller factions could survive on the occasional dive with a couple of ram scoops through the corona of their local blue giant, and larger ones could supply themselves with harvesting stations placed between binary stars, seeping off the stellar mass transfer. Admittedly, it would require some upgrading to the current stars, but I would argue it to be worth it just for the coolness factor alone.

 

[Lecic]

What with all we hear about mining fuel from gas giants, planets and asteroids, I'm surprised I've never heard of anyone suggesting the obvious alternative- stars.

Collecting hydrogen from stars is extremely impractical, for the same reasons in game as it is in real life- stars are really, really, really fucking hot. They also have extremely strong gravity, though that only applies to real life. You'd have a very hard time getting close enough to a star to physically touch it, take hydrogen, and then fly off again, without getting melted just by proximity or getting pulled into the star by its gravity.

 

[Snk]

Collecting hydrogen from stars is extremely impractical, for the same reasons in game as it is in real life- stars are really, really, really fucking hot. They also have extremely strong gravity, though that only applies to real life. You'd have a very hard time getting close enough to a star to physically touch it, take hydrogen, and then fly off again, without getting melted just by proximity or getting pulled into the star by its gravity.

This brings up the fact that stars in Star made don't have gravity. Which is weird.

 

[Dire Badger]

My hope (not suggestion) Is that fuel can be slowly obtained from the 'warp zone' inside of planets, with certain planets producing more than others. Like ice, for example.

however, Ice can be directly converted into fuel, at a much faster rate, and ice crystals even faster. That way, ice rocks would be valuable, and exploring to obtain 'faster' fuel would be quite valuable. Not to mention it would make ice planets a good focal point for conflict, especially if other types are EXTREMELY slow fuel producers. as such, it could also pave the way for other valuable resources to be slowly obtained from planets as well, making planets finally USEFUL.

If they go the 'antimatter' route, it would be a good excuse to assign antimatter values to all that useless stuff like plants and dirt, and convert 'mass' into fuel... again you could make certain planet types produce more than others. You could also create say... a 'solar panel' that produces fuel, extremely slowly, as long as it is exposed to direct sunlight, with the amount increasing the more closely it approaches a star, and different star types producing different rates. This would make 'solar collection stations' good points of attack.

 

[lupoCani]

Collecting hydrogen from stars is extremely impractical, for the same reasons in game as it is in real life- stars are really, really, really fucking hot. They also have extremely strong gravity, though that only applies to real life. You'd have a very hard time getting close enough to a star to physically touch it, take hydrogen, and then fly off again, without getting melted just by proximity or getting pulled into the star by its gravity.

As I said, there are some practicialities that would need to be remedied.