Solutons to discourage gigantism?

[Reilly Reese]

Most of the ships fielded by Factions now adays are roughly 100-600.

Not that big really.

 

[cptkickercutleg]

Huge ships are generally flag-ships, RP ships or show-ships, sometimes all 3.
Huge ships are rarely meant for combat, except to combat other huge ships, and even then, it's hardly applicable, with ships over a KM in size, but guns not reaching far enough (in a default server anyway) gigantism really isn't an issue. Especially so if your gigantic ship is mostly used to safely fly around, with your preferred fighter of choice being docked inside, so there's always a potential to have more dangerous fun available.

 

[Viridis00]

Once there's a real economy in place, it will probably be more cost effective to drone with medium ships. Once Starmade gets a larger playerbase, then you'll probably start seeing more people employing fighter squadrons to outflank slow turning ships with aid from their larger motherships. It will be a self correcting problem I'd wager.

On a more active note, once thrust is handled differently as planned, maneuverability will undoubtedly be on the side of the smaller ships, then more than now. Plus if we ever get some more ground content like aliens or other hostile astronauts, then things like small dropships and anti-personnel ships will have more purpose, too. The idea that we need to nerf big ships is unneeded once you introduce other elements that small craft would excel at.

 

[RedDwarfIV]

...

You see these? Those are radiators. This is your 'fridge' solution already in use in space, to cool something 73 metres wide and with not a lot of internal volume. My Starmade corvettes have more internal volume than this. And look at the size those radiators are.

If you think small spacecraft are exempt from having to actively get rid of heat, you're dreaming. Also... "But huge ships would keep accumulating heat until all its crew are cooked alive. " How about fitting bigger radiators?

 

[Stakhanov]

Scaling is indeed the main issue here. Real life animals and machines alike are constrained by scaling rules , and inherit certain roles from them. This is why our world is not dominated by giant sprinting bears or city-sized helicopters.

Once you add requirements that scale with surface area instead of volume , you would see much more logical designs. Heatsinks and solar cells are ideal concepts to experiment with.

It's not really necessary to explicitly forbid arbitrary ship scales. Given harsh enough diminishing returns , efficiency per block would eventually sink to impractically low levels and try anyone's patience to produce combat capable lag monsters.

The current linear scaling system makes for a sterile environment - there are no roles besides "press x to zoom around at no cost" and "stack blocks to kill anyone who didn't hoard as many"

 

[Qweesdy]

For most games, players are rewarded for their effort in some way. This "reward for effort" is extremely important; because without it people have few reasons to continue playing the game, get bored and move on to some other game much more quickly.

For role playing games the "reward for effort" is obvious - as you progress you get higher levels, better stats, more/better skills, better equipment, etc. For other types of games it can be less obvious, but you're still rewarded in some way - maybe you unlock faster cars or new areas, maybe you get access to better equipment, maybe it's just a "trophy collection" that you fill up as you play.

So, for StarMade, what should the "reward for effort" be?

There are only 2 answers that I can see. The first answer is being rewarded for collecting resources (including credits) by being able to afford bigger and better ships and stations/bases. Currently this doesn't necessarily work properly because the economy isn't finished yet; but that's something that will change sooner or later (hopefully!).

The second answer is being rewarded with control of more territory. For example, with a little effort a faction might control a few sectors, with more effort they might be able to control an entire system, and with even more effort the faction might control a significant portion of a galaxy. I am hoping the "universe update" will be the first step towards this.

Of course these rewards would form a kind of feedback loop: to get more resources you need territory (more planets, asteroids, etc); and to get more territory you need more/bigger ships and stations (partly because you need to conquer enemies to acquire territory, and partly because you need to defend the territory you control).

Now let's think about gigantism. Is it bad; or is it a large reward for a large amount of effort, that is necessary to keep people interested in playing StarMade longer?

 

[deathsoul097]

For most games, players are rewarded for their effort in some way. This "reward for effort" is extremely important; because without it people have few reasons to continue playing the game, get bored and move on to some other game much more quickly.

For role playing games the "reward for effort" is obvious - as you progress you get higher levels, better stats, more/better skills, better equipment, etc. For other types of games it can be less obvious, but you're still rewarded in some way - maybe you unlock faster cars or new areas, maybe you get access to better equipment, maybe it's just a "trophy collection" that you fill up as you play.

So, for StarMade, what should the "reward for effort" be?

There are only 2 answers that I can see. The first answer is being rewarded for collecting resources (including credits) by being able to afford bigger and better ships and stations/bases. Currently this doesn't necessarily work properly because the economy isn't finished yet; but that's something that will change sooner or later (hopefully!).

The second answer is being rewarded with control of more territory. For example, with a little effort a faction might control a few sectors, with more effort they might be able to control an entire system, and with even more effort the faction might control a significant portion of a galaxy. I am hoping the "universe update" will be the first step towards this.

Of course these rewards would form a kind of feedback loop: to get more resources you need territory (more planets, asteroids, etc); and to get more territory you need more/bigger ships and stations (partly because you need to conquer enemies to acquire territory, and partly because you need to defend the territory you control).

Now let's think about gigantism. Is it bad; or is it a large reward for a large amount of effort, that is necessary to keep people interested in playing StarMade longer?

This. Very much this.

Also, there is no problem if some people decide to produce megaships. I personally am planning a Carrier titan, and yet I still have a support carrier in construction, with a wing of 6 fighters, and a wing of 6 strike bombers, and 2 dropships. I like big ships, and I like small ships. And Small ships are only usable against larger ships in numbers, and large ships are only useful against small ships with support and turrets. Its balanced. IMO, leave it.

 

[aceface]

No. This isn't real life, big well constructed ships are awesome and are usually much more impressive than small ships. Gigantism isn't actually a thing. In fact, I very rarely (if ever) see game crippling ships on servers and when I do they're too fat for their own good (planets rotate faster than they do). A sufficiently sized swarm of AI fighters will completely obliterate any sized ship, no matter how strong the thing is. Gigantism is only a problem if you want it to be. Here, take a big ship to the face:

>: (

stop showing off keptick! :P

 

[lupoCani]

This so much

If someone spends months and potentially a year working on a ship, do you really think they don't deserve a ship that you know... wins? Yes, fighters need to be worthwhile, but they should be more for picking off a ships anti-missile turrets and taking out small weak points rather than expecting them to take down a capital ship.

I believe this is actually a large part of the problem- there's no such thing as a weak spot. The structure of a ship is either invlunerable or a piece of swiss cheese. This is the primary reason I support shield piercing. (along with auto-repair shipyards, naturally)

 

[Keptick]

stop showing off keptick! :p

;_;

 

[Thalanor]

Wrong response @keptick. You should go like this: "Ok, you don't want to see a large ship? Here, have 44 small ones!" then launch the drones.
:D

 

[Keptick]

@Thalanor You're absolutely right! Here...

TAKE SMALL SHIPS TO THE FAAAAAACE!!!!!!

 

[aceface]

We don't want people to build too big ships, as they lag and cause teleportations on servers - at least

;_;

 

[Reilly Reese]

In response to the faction territory post we need a dynamic map. Each faction can select a color to be them on the map. In fact at some point based on certain posts and knowledge I drew a map of three servers with all the forum factions on it. I just drew it for the heck of it and it did not really show anything correctly :p

 

[WarmasterRaptor]

In response to the faction territory post we need a dynamic map. Each faction can select a color to be them on the map. In fact at some point based on certain posts and knowledge I drew a map of three servers with all the forum factions on it. I just drew it for the heck of it and it did not really show anything correctly :p

Maybe instead of choosing a color, simply show territories that are neutral to you, hostile or friendly, like in the faction hub.

Let the colors of your ships, stations, planetside bases be your flags

 

[Leanson]

I like big ships, ships over 1k I think are to big. Given the server population it is not good to have ships over that size. In fleet battles I would go lower to about 700 is but this depends on fleet size and server population at the time. I think it's funny how people who can't build large ships want to regulate others who can. Maybe you should learn to build large ships. Trust me, they are very fun, if you want I can teach you how to build them and how t he Y can be useful

 

[Stakhanov]

For most games, players are rewarded for their effort in some way. This "reward for effort" is extremely important; because without it people have few reasons to continue playing the game, get bored and move on to some other game much more quickly.

Stop right there.

It is very wrong to assume that principle is necessary in any game. It happens to be widespread in single player and coop games , but even there it's not required at all - games like Tetris or Left4Dead only reward your efforts with a harder challenge. Versus games usually don't need to add any reward as defeating the opposition is it. In chess or fighting games , any advantage must be taken directly from your opponent.

Sandbox games may lack rules as they're created , but that doesn't mean they don't need any. When there exists a method to gain an advantage without interacting with players (Players vs Environment) then players need a way to interrupt or deny that activity , and the advantage must be liable to be lost. In Eve Online , farming high end content carries a risk of player interference that must be dealt with (often with allied players physically guarding space and keeping watch) and prancing about in an expensive ship , no matter how powerful , invariably gets you killed no matter where you are - just because it's profitable to do so.

If you allow people to play PvE without risk and leverage that to stack the odds in PvP with no limit , there is no multiplayer - only competing on the single player scoreboard of who can play the longest. By all means , have fun with your ship building contests , but don't pretend it's multiplayer or that it should carry relevance to game balance.

 

[Leanson]

@Leanson With all due respect, do you think stacking 1.000.000blocks makes you special?

For those who believe that fat asses are the best of the world on themes of fun please play on this server: http://starmade-servers.com/server/316/ , then wait until one or more fat asses get into combat, in that moment you can´t do several things, can´t park your ship, can´t mine, can´t open doors, can´t shot, can´t build, in other words CAN´T play starmade.

But for sure having a fat ass make you a better starmade player.

How about you play on EE where it can handle larger ships, but i must warn you, suck players do die. Sounds like someone needs to learn how to build. 1,000,000 blocks that is it lol. What's special about making a well rounded ships over 200,000 mass is the time and effort is put in to it. The fact that my faction controls, builds, and maintain a fleet of fat ass ships makes me very special. Obviously you have fought and lost against big ships. Maybe your computer isn't good, or your server can't handle it. Either way you are missing on one of the best things in sm. Being able to build what you want.[DOUBLEPOST=1412624554,1412624491][/DOUBLEPOST]

@Leanson With all due respect, do you think stacking 1.000.000blocks makes you special?

For those who believe that fat asses are the best of the world on themes of fun please play on this server: http://starmade-servers.com/server/316/ , then wait until one or more fat asses get into combat, in that moment you can´t do several things, can´t park your ship, can´t mine, can´t open doors, can´t shot, can´t build, in other words CAN´T play starmade.

But for sure having a fat ass make you a better starmade player.

Have you been in a fleet battle before??

 

[Comr4de]

Big ships are fine, I think its the ease of which they can be obtained that is the problem.

Y'all are shitting on this guy hardcore, but the actual problem of being able to afford a capship within half an hour of joining a server has never been addressed.

Real shit time: you are all coddled by the current default settings. They are too easy. Nobody thinks twice about having to craft their materials in MC and accept it as a reality of the game. However StarMades crafting system has always been awful by default. I know that the crafting revamp is around the corner so I'm holding back until I see it but historically the intended primary method of generating income/material has been so shit-tastic that everyone resorts to stripping glass from space stations. This is an issue that will be solved with a one-two punch of an actual survival mode being implemented and server owners actually getting behind it. I always point to NASS Hardcore as a perfect example of a successful survival server. Combat was balanced by the scarcity of parts, conflict was generated over the increasing scarcity of parts, and people valued their spaceships as they couldnt be readily replaced.

The only reason it went down was because BDLS and I got tired of dealing with updating the blockconfig every update. But the point is that this shit works.

 

[Leanson]

The problem isn´t the server or crapy players computers pal, it´s the game engine.

If EE means ElwynEternity i´m gona to pass some time here to check they things you said.

For the things about faction and bla bla bla seriusly dude, really that´s the best you can arging to defend fat asses? To say that your position is right, because the counterpart is less than you, is not the most logical way in the world.



Yeah dude, i know how to put fps on the server nearly 1 and try to win with these nice fps, I was one of the tards that run backwards while my ship´s guns blazing and as i said before thats an engine problem.

Sorry for my lack of english if you can´t understand me.

Seems to me a lack of respect not a lack of English which you seem to not have a problem.

I'd say if my ship is better than your, then I'd say in right. If my ship can out perform a ship of equal mass then I'd say I'm right. When did I say I was right and you were wrong. I'm just stating what I think and my assumptions. What is considered to large of a ship for you??

Comrade hard core Nass is a good example of people balancing and thinking what is best for them and to win. Winning is important part. Survivability being the key components in having larger ships, but most importantly having them effective in battle and taking in all circumstances in account like lag, and your enemies dinky computer lol