Recognized by Council New Rails & Changes

[AJ1AJ1]

There are quite a few rail types missing from the game that should be added so that the best of the rail builders (and the worst) can experiment and create creations that are not possible currently.

The intangible clockwise rotator​

Spoiler: description

To match the intangible basic rail. would allow complete cases for these rails that would cause issues because it would collide with the corners.

The intangible anticlockwise rotator​

Spoiler: description

yea I'm really not seeing the point of adding only one direction so here's the other direction

The visible shoot out rail​

Spoiler: description

Some people may want it visible so it doesn't look like there's a empty gap for no reason

The intangible rail docker​

Spoiler: description

Would work well with fleets and certain normal ships. They could use it to dock while making it look like its another ship floating rather than looking like it was using a rail docker. people will still use normal rail dockers as some people hate the idea of there being a empty space in between (things like USD's should keep normal dockers because you don't want to fall through). One major bonus to adding this is the ability to make docked entities use the same rail block as long as every other physical block is not colliding because the thing that normally stops two docked entities going in the same location is the fact that the rail dockers are tangible. This could work well with the cross rail below. Did you ever think of the limitless creations if you could dock multiple objects to one rail?

The cross rail and the intangible cross rail​

image provided by Exozen,

Spoiler: description

If you enter from one direction you exit from the opposite side. It would only be on one face. This is a compression of a more complex circuit using logic. You may be wondering why do you need that when only one thing can go across at a time but as it was stated in the intangible rail docker section, multiple docked entities could go over the same rail making this incredibly useful.

The Turret slider​

Most importantly The turret axis would need its equivalent in the basic rail form (slider rails)

Spoiler: description

Everyone knows that turrets can rotate to any angle but that's pretty much it. they cant move any other way. This idea will make a new turret type block that uses a slider rail that turrets can move across

Spoiler: Features

Features:

• Each turret slider could be used in a line of them (possibly with corner options later but still on 2D planes) which could allow the docked turret to slide around in any direction but not rotate on that axis
• It could be used across walls, floors or ceilings for turrets that try to kill invading astronauts (intangible turret sliders could be used to make "floating turrets" that move
• It would work well for Damage Pulse AI as it could potentially allow the turret to get a little closer
• The turret could move at any any amount across a block and stop at any time (it could potentially move 0.1 of a block along the rails in the line shape) to allow shots more often because they need direct lines of fire with AI which would have more chance incase the enemy player is halfway across a block
• Logic should detect if there is 1+ rail docker mostly on the adjacent rail slider block which could be used to locate where enemies are for logic use

Spoiler: AI

AI changes:

• If a player wants the turret base as sliding but the cannon part as rotating the two block types should be able to be used with each other
• The AI would need to cope with translation movements by looking at where the target is and by choosing the direction that it is in then moving the docked part as close as possible to the target which would simply slide the docked part across this line of blocks which would get very little closer (unless the target was touching the turret sliders)

Spoiler: Other Uses

Logic Triggers
This could be used to make triggers for logic. Lets say you had AI selected to astronaut and the turret was on 2 different turret slider entities in opposite axis (one x one z) along the ceiling of a cube room. When the astronaut goes in the turrets will align to the closest possible position and by using logic activator modules it could send signals when it knows the target is in a certain area relative to where the turret sliders are. A simple decorative use for this is lighting up the floor of a room underneath the astronaut.

Along with these new blocks it would also be good to add the following types of logic blocks:

The intangible button​

Spoiler: description

so rotating stuff from intangible rotators can be detected without looking odd.

The intangible activator module​

Spoiler: description

for detecting docked stuff on intangible rails

These intangible logic blocks could also have the added bonus of not showing wires if something is connected to them! this will stop it from looking weird seeing floating corners in wires and will also allow people to make logic blocks go across hallways. Some people will still use normal logic blocks too because they will again, not leave a space. They will also be easier to edit if they are visible so a lot of people will use the older stuff and not let it get abandoned.

Spoiler: A note about all intangible blocks...

A very important note about this is that all of this intangible stuff needs to be damageable by weapons. If this is not the case issues arise with indestructible stuff. This should be for all types of intangible blocks including cargo storage and trigger areas. The blocks can still be intangible and have no collisions with other blocks / players /player mining gun, but when a enemy tries to shoot it, it must be destroyable.

My responses list:​

Has a few example uses for intangible rail dockers - Recognized by Council - New Rails & Changes​

 

[JNC]

I like your idea of real-time moving, or "sliding" parts, not for turret docks, personally, but for other facets of a design.

Could rotating blocks not have the option to rotate in either direction? Rather than having a seperate block for that?

 

[AJ1AJ1]

I like your idea of real-time moving, or "sliding" parts, not for turret docks, personally, but for other facets of a design.

Could rotating blocks not have the option to rotate in either direction? Rather than having a seperate block for that?

if rotating blocks were in one block how would logic know which way to rotate stuff?

 

[kiraen]

The intangible rail docker
Would work well with fleets and certain normal ships. They could use it to dock and it would look like its another ship floating rather than looking like it was using a rail docker. people will still use normal rail dockers as some people hate the idea of there being a empty space in between (things like USD's should keep normal dockers because you don't want to fall through). Did you ever think of the limitless creations if you could dock multiple objects to one rail?

Pick-up point and a single Pick-up rail. If you want to get really complicated you can still link a speed controller and add a shoot-out. There is no requirement to connect this to any other part of the ship, visible or not.

A very important note about this is that all of this intangible stuff needs to be damageable by weapons. If this is not the case issues arise with indestructible stuff. This should be for all types of intangible blocks including cargo storage and trigger areas. The blocks can still be intangible and have no collisions with other blocks / players /player mining gun, but when a enemy tries to shoot it, it must be destroyable.

I'm pretty sure the intangible stuff is already damageable. Someone check me on that.

Other then the sliding turrets, which I'm not sure about, everything else looks good.

 

[AJ1AJ1]

Pick-up point and a single Pick-up rail. If you want to get really complicated you can still link a speed controller and add a shoot-out. There is no requirement to connect this to any other part of the ship, visible or not.



I'm pretty sure the intangible stuff is already damageable. Someone check me on that.

Other then the sliding turrets, which I'm not sure about, everything else looks good.

It is basically the same system with the additional directional movement so that damage pulse (close range) can move a little and small turrets could move across walls

Edit: i changed the idea slightly now.

Not quite sure what you were talking about at the top of your post but basically intangible rail dockers would be good to dock multiple things in the same spot. This could be good for making several rotating objects that used to same rotator to spin. or to make things on rails like the cross rail to be useful because they could allow docked entities to pass through each other while on the exact same x/y/z axis rails

 

[ToasterBorst]

AJ1AJ1 Thanks for putting this chat discussion into a thread! Will make sure it gets to where it needs to go!

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

The intangible clockwise rotator
The intangible anticlockwise rotator

I know I've seen this suggested before but a search comes up empty, it's a good idea though.​

The visible shoot out rail

I'm sure you know you can simply use the side or top of a rail-docker with shootout rails so there is no reason to ever need a pit,unless you are launching out plex/blast doors. I guess that's a valid argument.​

The intangible rail docker

Already suggested and it kind of turned into a flame war.
Recognized by Council - Invisible, Intangible Rail Dockers​

The cross rail and the intangible cross rail

Not sure I have much to say on this one... The logic to do the same thing is not complex but I guess it wouldn't be as happy with multiple entities passing at the same time but I imagine that would likely cause other collision issues first.​

The Turret slider

Very interesting suggestion, I've seen suggestions for rails that can be moved along freely but I don't think they were ever for turret integration.
​

The intangible activator module

Seen this suggestion before, it's a good idea as we do need a way to detect movement when the rails are not attached to anything. There are programing limitations that prevent us from using C and V from a rail to a logic block so this may be our best option. It also has other potential uses such as "wireless" buses.
​

The intangible button

I'm not sure if this is needed, I'm not against it per-say but as long as the connections do not have a logic pipe you could simply wire your intangible activator into a button anywhere elsewhere on the ship and have the exact same functionality.​

A note about all intangible blocks...

There has been discussion already on if intangible blocks should be able to take damage. I am in the camp that they should take damage so I agree with you but the argument against it is for not ruining a ships ability to recall drones/fighters if perhaps they take damage. My point is that if you are taking damage and loosing blocks than being able to recall drones is the least of your concerns.​

 

[MeRobo]

if rotating blocks were in one block how would logic know which way to rotate stuff?

Maybe the direction could be determined by a tangible rotator controling the intangible rotator via logic.

EDIT: All of your ideas except the slider thing look pretty nice to me.
After reading the thread linked by Sven_The_Slayer I want to suggest some specifications to the intangible rail docker (kiraen brought up something similar): Make the docker visible while you have a weapon computer equipped in the hotbar while flying a ship and in astronaut mode with a weapon (including torch and build inhibitor) equipped. Also the intangible button seems kinda pointless since you can slave a normal button to an intangible activation module and back (there shouldn't be logic lines from or to the intangible activation module).
I'm still not the biggest fan of the slider.

 

[kiraen]

Not quite sure what you were talking about at the top of your post but basically intangible rail dockers would be good to dock multiple things in the same spot. This could be good for making several rotating objects that used to same rotator to spin. or to make things on rails like the cross rail to be useful because they could allow docked entities to pass through each other while on the exact same x/y/z axis rails

1. You were talking about 'docking' ships at a distance from the mother ship. Not spiny-things. (at least that's what it sounded like to me)
   
2. Docking multiple entities to the same spot sounds like a collision nightmare. Two, maybe. More, no.
   
3. Dynamically allowing entities to become intangible to occupy the same space sounds, at best, highly exploitable

I guess I'm not really understanding what you want here. Why would you want the spiny-things to un-dock? If they are permanent, why does it matter if the dock is intangible? How would making the dock intangible allow for multiple docking since the entities would still collide with each other?

 

[AJ1AJ1]

The intangible clockwise rotator

The intangible rail docker

Already suggested and it kind of turned into a flame war.
Recognized by Council - Invisible, Intangible Rail Dockers​

The cross rail and the intangible cross rail

Not sure I have much to say on this one... The logic to do the same thing is not complex but I guess it wouldn't be as happy with multiple entities passing at the same time but I imagine that would likely cause other collision issues first.​

The Turret slider

Very interesting suggestion, I've seen suggestions for rails that can be moved along freely but I don't think they were ever for turret integration.

​

The intangible button

I'm not sure if this is needed, I'm not against it per-say but as long as the connections do not have a logic pipe you could simply wire your intangible activator into a button anywhere elsewhere on the ship and have the exact same functionality.​

A note about all intangible blocks...

There has been discussion already on if intangible blocks should be able to take damage. I am in the camp that they should take damage so I agree with you but the argument against it is for not ruining a ships ability to recall drones/fighters if perhaps they take damage. My point is that if you are taking damage and loosing blocks than being able to recall drones is the least of your concerns.​

The intangible rail docker
I get your point about that intangible rail dockers thread. what I'm trying to explain is because it is intangible it would allow things like the cross rail to pass at the same time. I'll show a few uses later. (that thread is wanting it for the ease of docking and this thread is wanting it for the machine side of things)

The cross rail
it wouldn't cause collisions any more than now. This block would just be for the intangible rail docker as that wouldn't cause a collision when two entities try to pass at the same time if the ships are made well

e.g. having shipcore and all blocks on layer one for docked entity 1. Having shipcore and all blocks on layer two for docked entity two

Make a cross rail with the layout in the + shape with the cross rail in the centre. Put the two entities (that have intangible rail docker) on two adjacent edges. Make them go to their opposite rail and when the two entities would've collided due to the rail docker being in the way they wont so the two shapes will move over each other in only 3 layers of blocks (instead of using two different rails and 4 layers like otherwise would be needed) Its also invisible so it wont look ugly.

The turret slider
Well the only freely moving thing for docked entities, at the moment, would be turret axis which is for turrets and so why not make the free floating slider usable with turrets to. It does have a few uses for AI and logic. I suppose if builders just want the free floating slider as a free floating slider fine by me, they can just add no AI to it.

The intangible button.
Its needed especially for constantly rotating devices. They use button's signals not activation signals so it would work well for them. If it was the Option that allowed to not show wires it would be good for things like corridors that need wires from one side to the other side needing to be linked (and have no external space)

A note about all intangible blocks...
If people are worried about fleets then make the rail dockers the only thing that is still not damageable. Every thing else like cargo storage should be destructible because it has no reason to stay indestructible.

Maybe the direction could be determined by a tangible rotator controling the intangible rotator via logic.

EDIT: All of your ideas except the slider thing look pretty nice to me.
After reading the thread linked by Sven_The_Slayer I want to suggest some specifications to the intangible rail docker (kiraen brought up something similar): Make the docker visible while you have a weapon computer equipped in the hotbar while flying a ship and in astronaut mode with a weapon (including torch and build inhibitor) equipped. Also the intangible button seems kinda pointless since you can slave a normal button to an intangible activation module and back (there shouldn't be logic lines from or to the intangible activation module).
I'm still not the biggest fan of the slider.

Yes making intangible docker visible after certain requirements are met would be good. Then again anyone could just use F9 to make everything visible. About the intangible button I talked about that above.

1. You were talking about 'docking' ships at a distance from the mother ship. Not spiny-things. (at least that's what it sounded like to me)
   
2. Docking multiple entities to the same spot sounds like a collision nightmare. Two, maybe. More, no.
   
3. Dynamically allowing entities to become intangible to occupy the same space sounds, at best, highly exploitable

I guess I'm not really understanding what you want here. Why would you want the spiny-things to un-dock? If they are permanent, why does it matter if the dock is intangible? How would making the dock intangible allow for multiple docking since the entities would still collide with each other?

1) I'm basically coming from the machine side of stuff rather than the practical side of things. I wasn't talking about docking stuff from far away but it could be done easier I suppose.
2)Docking multiple entities to the same spot would use the same collisions as rails do currently. if they notice a collision they stop. Rail collisions don't make things go flying currently so it shouldn't be too bad.
3) Allowing entities to use the same space is probably exploitable in lots of ways but its only use currently would be for cargo storage. As long as cargo storage is (and it should be) destroyable there is a major downside to this which is an enemy would need a lot less powerful gun to destroy all of the cargo at once... so people could use it at their own risk along with the fact cargo storage needs storage blocks to work so there would still be some tangible blocks. Saying all that, you can still exploit current pickup rails in a similar way using several rails so all it does is compress it so less space for you and less targets for the enemy. (if no one exploits the current obvious method why would they exploit it if its easier?) (also once you fill the storage it becomes tangible which may crash the game / bug your ship)

And no I don't want spinny things to undock however they will if you connect activation modules to them (I think)(so intangible button is needed too as well as intangible activation module). When I say the intangible rail docker block will allow compression of machines I mean this sort of stuff (Has Pictures) :

Spoiler: The Merged plant

These two images show 3 plants stacked together using 3 different rails. With intangible rail dockers and shipcores that are stacked plants could be merged with only 1 rail instead of 3.

Spoiler: Docking ships "looking like they are on the floor"

If the rail docker was intangible it would be able to go through the the floor (green hazard stripes) and so it would look like the ship (yellow hazard stripes) is touching the floor which wouldn't have to ruin the design of the floor by adding basic rails or 1 block deep spaces for pickup rails. It would be good for detailed runways.

This is probably a better way to get the rail docker "inside the floor" (still green hazard stripes) but both ways should work.

Spoiler: Rotating Objects

For rotating objects 1 block deep in blocks they could be surrounded and the object would still rotate because the rail docker would be intangible so its corners would not start to clip. Things on different layers could be moved onto a rail rotator while an object already there is at 45 degrees, to create builds that work with 45 degrees and 90 degrees while using the same rotator block to spin.

 

[MeRobo]

Then again anyone could just use F9 to make everything visible.

Actually you are wrong. During combat (this implies me moving my ship) I am not capable of reaching the F9-key (don't want to go into the details why and no, changing the key bindings wouldn't work, anything viable is already taken). And maybe there are other players with similar issues.

 

[AJ1AJ1]

Actually you are wrong. During combat (this implies me moving my ship) I am not capable of reaching the F9-key (don't want to go into the details why and no, changing the key bindings wouldn't work, anything viable is already taken). And maybe there are other players with similar issues.

oh okay but people who keep laser gun on the hotbar selected by default will always see the docking rail which makes it slightly pointless of being invisible. Maybe it could be something added to scanners instead that show all invisible blocks for a certain time limit (because people already use scanners in combat too). Another option would be when under attack it makes it visible.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

The intangible button.
Its needed especially for constantly rotating devices. They use button's signals not activation signals so it would work well for them. If it was the Option that allowed to not show wires it would be good for things like corridors that need wires from one side to the other side needing to be linked (and have no external space)

I'll address a few of the other points when I get some more time. If you link an intangible activator to a button and back to the activator that activator will act exactly like a button. So Activator <-> Button. That's the only point I was making on that issue. I said it's not specifically needed but I'm not apposed. The only difference between an invisible activator 2 way linked to a button and an invisible button is an extra block. I don't know if it's worth taking up an extra block id to add both when one can do both jobs with the tools we already have.

 

[JNC]

if rotating blocks were in one block how would logic know which way to rotate stuff?

Well, idk what sort of functions Starmade blocks can have, but wouldn't it be like a 2-way switch within the rotor block? Player selects left rotate, logic hits switch, knows only go ccw rotation for that block... etc?

For the cross (+) intangible docker idea... i feel like you're forgetting that most docked entities are likely to be larger than a single core. Making the cross larger would prevent collusion issues but than that defeats the purpose of your suggestion as well. So that's useful for small area docked entities only? You say you suggested these ideas from a 'machine' point of view; do you perhaps have other uses for these types of docks in mind, for the future?

 

[AJ1AJ1]

Well, idk what sort of functions Starmade blocks can have, but wouldn't it be like a 2-way switch within the rotor block? Player selects left rotate, logic hits switch, knows only go ccw rotation for that block... etc?

For the cross (+) intangible docker idea... i feel like you're forgetting that most docked entities are likely to be larger than a single core. Making the cross larger would prevent collusion issues but than that defeats the purpose of your suggestion as well. So that's useful for small area docked entities only? You say you suggested these ideas from a 'machine' point of view; do you perhaps have other uses for these types of docks in mind, for the future?

For the rotation that could work but I think it would be easier for schema to make it (copy-paste code from replacement of all other rails) as two separate blocks and it would also help people get less confused because if it was different for just the intangible rotator block and for all other logic rails you use replacement blocks not other blocks to determine direction. (that probably doesn't make sense much but basically I'm saying it would be confusing because its not the same as every other part of rail logic)

In the previous comment I did, it showed the many uses of intangible rail dockers for bigger ships. (such as underneath rails for fleet runways on carriers so that it would look like a nicer runway). The cross rail is just something to make some parts of making things with rails easier with less logic needed. (lets say you have two rails that cross over each other and but one thing would cross over the centre at a time, you could use 4 activation blocks with 4 buttons and 4 extra rails or you could use one block which would be this block. This example is different to my previous example and would use normal rail dockers and allow one ship to cross it at a time (and is irrelevant to collisions) . So basically it also has a use of reduction of logic for people who get confused by logic too much but can use rails)

The thing with rails and collisions is currently if you dock two things with tangible blocks that will touch, it will collide. so adding these blocks will not make a difference to that because it shouldn't reduce it or make it worse.

 

[kiraen]

Are you aware that you can place the intangible blocks above the runway, facing down, and it will function perfectly? No need to cut holes in the deck or mar it with visible rails.

Spoiler: Example

= Intangible
+ Deck
- ignore, just for spacing

-----======
====+++++

Certainly only one can pass the center at a time, but we are still talking about only core sized entities, which will collide on the cross rail. If they are larger, they will collide before they even reach the cross rail. You are still going to need lots of logic for traffic control.
Since you are going to need the logic anyway it's not that much extra space. And it's already programmed in and completely functional.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the cross block, I just don't see the point.

 

[AJ1AJ1]

Are you aware that you can place the intangible blocks above the runway, facing down, and it will function perfectly? No need to cut holes in the deck or mar it with visible rails.

Spoiler: Example

= Intangible
+ Deck
- ignore, just for spacing

-----======
====+++++

Certainly only one can pass the centre at a time, but we are still talking about only core sized entities, which will collide on the cross rail. If they are larger, they will collide before they even reach the cross rail. You are still going to need lots of logic for traffic control.
Since you are going to need the logic anyway it's not that much extra space. And it's already programmed in and completely functional.
Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the cross block, I just don't see the point.

of course I know you can use upside down intangible blocks, I use them all the time. The issue then is there has to be at least one block on the ground/an odd movement from higher going lower (Ok this is pretty easy too) if the rail docker is facing outwards. Which can look weird depending on what is moving. (The extra one block at the start is needed to make sure the ship dock in the correct rotation)

(I am terrible at making these examples :p) The cross rail would also supply the idea of a two way rail without using replacement
rails and in this case it could be used for fleet runway systems as going out would use the same block as going in this example wont cause collisions because it has nothing else going on the rail in a different direction.... then again the replacement of rails is very easy. However, it still adds to the compression of logic and makes it faster to make such things.

 

[StormWing0]

The cross rail up there looks useful. Won't have to use logic to get the same effect.