Read by Council Grid based logic computer system

[BDLS]

It sucks to take up a bunch of mass and be messy to do neat things with the current logic system.

Just have a single computer block that allows you to craft a circuit in a 2d grid menu. Obviously would need a lot more fleshing out. Would be neat to be able to save logic circuits like as secondary blueprints also.

I have made an illustration:

Use this new system to make a neat wiping system for clearing the tears of everyone with current awesome logic circuits when all their blocks are removed from the game eventually.

 

[Winterhome]

Why not just use lua or some new, bashed together abomination of a language?

 

[ltmauve]

Hmmmm....
Perhaps a "function" block would be better? I can't imagine that Schine would remove the logic blocks. Also, rail/area trigger blocks would still need to be seperate.

 

[BDLS]

Why not just use lua or some new, bashed together abomination of a language?

I have a feeling most players aren't going to want to learn to program to make starmade logic circuits (although I admit it would be cool). This interface is as simple as it gets.

 

[Winterhome]

I have a feeling most players aren't going to want to learn to program to make starmade logic circuits (although I admit it would be cool). This interface is as simple as it gets.

Use a scripted base, then, and have a toggle between the GUI layout and the script interface, with the GUI being the basic thing that people see first.

Changes on the grid = changes to the script. The script is more powerful than the GUI, but also far more advanced, and newbies can learn the syntax by looking at how it interacts with the grid.

 

[Auriga_Nexus]

To be honest there is a lot you can still do with basic logic even if you don't have scripting, and if Schema-nyan and the rest of the Schine team touch up the existing logic system, which they have planned to do, then you would be able to do even more.

Of course, the issue with a block like this is how it will handle input and output. Here's how I forsee it working as the OP described it; an embedded circuit block (not related to the existing circuit/motherboard blocks), would work like a storage block; the difference of course would be that you can only place logic blocks, 1 per grid slot, and that you can connect logic blocks together within the circuit block as though they existed outside the block. Now as for connecting the internal logic circuit with external blocks... we can use the grid for that to. Basically, there would be 6 highlighted grid spots, 4 on each side and 2 in the upper left and lower right corners - each spot corresponds to a face of the block, and if you put an activation module, wireless module, or another circuit block adjacent to that face it will receive the signal from that block.

Of course you would still need to have an activation block outside of the circuit to trigger things, but this can be used to condense complex circuits down so that they take up a smaller area, while still maintaining some semblance of game balance by making sure you have all the things you need for the circuit block-wise. That's the main issue with complex circuits, like flipflop shift-registries - they take up lots of space, and may or may not be viable in some applications because of that.

Scripting, of course, has its merits; however, if we do see scripting I would like it to be part of a separate system, rather than simply a logic addon. Not to say it can't interface with our existing logic system, of course. I think having LUA scripts would allow us to perform more mathematical logical operations that in turn trigger signals within the existing logic framework - send signals if an item in an inventory block reaches a certain threshold, trigger warning lights when shields go critical, allow activation of a door or elevator only if the user enters the right numeric combo, etc. I already had an idea a while back about adding a second set of logic cubes that were arithmetic in nature, but having scripting blocks for that might be a better alternative.

 

[Mariux]

Reminds me of Lego Mindstorms programming. Though I do not approve of this suggestion because:
1) It removes the ability to have a dedicated logic/computer room (debatable, since computers you suggested would still require space)
2) Since everything is condensed into one block, you can't partially destroy a logic system, which could lead to some interesting malfunctions (for example, you take out a chunk of a mech's leg and it starts twitching due to the logic circuit being damaged). Condensing everything into one block would remove such a posssibility.
3) I don't know about other people, but to me, this wouldn't make logic any simplier (not that it's too difficult)

 

[BDLS]

You wouldn't be limited by the columns and rows. They are simply there for uniformity in the GUI. You can bind whatever/wherever to whatever/wherever. A circuit is easier to design in 2D.

Reminds me of Lego Mindstorms programming. Though I do not approve of this suggestion because:
1) It removes the ability to have a dedicated logic/computer room (debatable, since computers you suggested would still require space)
2) Since everything is condensed into one block, you can't partially destroy a logic system, which could lead to some interesting malfunctions (for example, you take out a chunk of a mech's leg and it starts twitching due to the logic circuit being damaged). Condensing everything into one block would remove such a posssibility.
3) I don't know about other people, but to me, this wouldn't make logic any simplier (not that it's too difficult)

1) Mass comes at a premium in starmade, especially on smaller ships. Having any sort of messy looking complicated circuit on a fighter cripples it/is impossible. It's kind of silly to add a bunch of mass with full sized blocks that should be a super small controller (like a bunch of delay blocks).
2) meh
3) It would at least look a lot cleaner and be easier to modify. Like looking at an automobile's wiring diagram.

edit:
You shouldn't have to have this (from another thread):

 

[Valiant70]

Reminds me of Lego Mindstorms programming. Though I do not approve of this suggestion because:
1) It removes the ability to have a dedicated logic/computer room (debatable, since computers you suggested would still require space)
2) Since everything is condensed into one block, you can't partially destroy a logic system, which could lead to some interesting malfunctions (for example, you take out a chunk of a mech's leg and it starts twitching due to the logic circuit being damaged). Condensing everything into one block would remove such a posssibility.
3) I don't know about other people, but to me, this wouldn't make logic any simplier (not that it's too difficult)

1. Now you just have a lot more space in your computer rooms. Think of each block as a server rack.
2. This can still happen if processes span multiple blocks. It's probably unusual for malfunctions of this nature to be interesting anyway.
3. It would make it easier to work with regardless of complexity. The current system is a pain in the aft to connect up and keep organized.
[DOUBLEPOST=1433636375,1433636202][/DOUBLEPOST]

To be honest there is a lot you can still do with basic logic even if you don't have scripting, and if Schema-nyan and the rest of the Schine team touch up the existing logic system, which they have planned to do, then you would be able to do even more.

Of course, the issue with a block like this is how it will handle input and output. Here's how I forsee it working as the OP described it; an embedded circuit block (not related to the existing circuit/motherboard blocks), would work like a storage block; the difference of course would be that you can only place logic blocks, 1 per grid slot, and that you can connect logic blocks together within the circuit block as though they existed outside the block. Now as for connecting the internal logic circuit with external blocks... we can use the grid for that to. Basically, there would be 6 highlighted grid spots, 4 on each side and 2 in the upper left and lower right corners - each spot corresponds to a face of the block, and if you put an activation module, wireless module, or another circuit block adjacent to that face it will receive the signal from that block.

Of course you would still need to have an activation block outside of the circuit to trigger things, but this can be used to condense complex circuits down so that they take up a smaller area, while still maintaining some semblance of game balance by making sure you have all the things you need for the circuit block-wise. That's the main issue with complex circuits, like flipflop shift-registries - they take up lots of space, and may or may not be viable in some applications because of that.

Scripting, of course, has its merits; however, if we do see scripting I would like it to be part of a separate system, rather than simply a logic addon. Not to say it can't interface with our existing logic system, of course. I think having LUA scripts would allow us to perform more mathematical logical operations that in turn trigger signals within the existing logic framework - send signals if an item in an inventory block reaches a certain threshold, trigger warning lights when shields go critical, allow activation of a door or elevator only if the user enters the right numeric combo, etc. I already had an idea a while back about adding a second set of logic cubes that were arithmetic in nature, but having scripting blocks for that might be a better alternative.

Ultimately, I would be greatly satisfied to see three systems:

1. Base logic blocks like we have now
2. Putting said blocks into a box as suggested in the OP to make them smaller if desired
3. Scriptable computers (preferably lua)

 

[PizzaPress]

- "gj biddles"
- "griddles"
Maple syrup and butter-based Waffle Logic confirmed. :p

2) Since everything is condensed into one block, you can't partially destroy a logic system, which could lead to some interesting malfunctions (for example, you take out a chunk of a mech's leg and it starts twitching due to the logic circuit being damaged). Condensing everything into one block would remove such a posssibility.

This has a very major drawback, though: things with logic then become far less viable for use. And interesting failures are, as another person said, unlikely to happen.

Ultimately, I would be greatly satisfied to see three systems:

1. Base logic blocks like we have now
2. Putting said blocks into a box as suggested in the OP to make them smaller if desired
3. Scriptable computers (preferably lua)

I've been wanting this for some time now. I really hope this gets in.

If we get single-block logic and better rotators, we could build our mecha much, much smaller, and not have them be junk.

(Though the docking connections are still weak points. And you could lose weapons computers/logic easier without having them buried behind a long stick(hi standard battleships) facing the enemy. Core sniping will phased out with the HP update, however.)

 

[CyberTao]

If we get single-block logic and better rotators, we could build our mecha much, much smaller, and not have them be junk.

They would not get all that smaller. Why? Because rotors still require clearance and space. Remember that mechs are multiple-entity creations, and scripting or any kind of logic replacement would be confined to 1 entity and used with wireless. How input and outputs are determined are also important factors.

They aint gonna get smaller, they would just have a bit more shielding and maybe power (Damn you mass enhancers!).

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

As a bit of a logic connoisseur I don't think this would help all that much. Sure it would make some small logic contraptions take up less space but anything complex with lots of ins and outs interacting with other parts of other circuits would be impossible to build.

You shouldn't have to have this (from another thread):

You'll notice that this circuit, whatever it does, would not even fit in the grid space provided by the OP

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Oh I'm not saying I wouldn't support the addition of something like this into the game, it would mean I could put my standard blinking hardware on every ship I own as the circuit is a little big for some of my smaller ships. It just wouldn't mean "all their blocks are removed from the game eventually." as more complex circuits would be impossible without full control over inputs and outputs. The memory I am working right now has 4 inputs and 1 output for every bit, four bits per section, four sections per module and I am using 10 of them That's 640 inputs and 160 outputs. Sure a lot of them could be contained inside the grid so more likely each bank would contain a single module. That's still 64 inputs.

Current count: my memory modules each features 52 inputs and 6 outputs. I could potentially build the entire thing in one of these grids but how would that handle that much data from outside the thing?

 

[BDLS]

You'll notice that this circuit, whatever it does, would not even fit in the grid space provided by the OP

Dude it was just a quick concept pic. It would have scrollbars.

 

[CyberTao]

Dude it was just a quick concept pic. It would have scrollbars.

Starmade scrollbars are a pain in the ass though. To make the grids large enough that advanced logikzers would want, it'd be like using advanced build mode on 200 without the arrows. It aint fun.

 

[BDLS]

Don't worry, I'm sure schema will master programming scroll bars some day.

Kind of a silly reason to shut an idea down.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Don't worry, I'm sure schema will master programming scroll bars some day.

Kind of a silly reason to shut an idea down.

The current system I am building uses memory modules, these modules each feature 52 inputs and 6 outputs. I could potentially build an entire module in one of these grids but how would that handle that much data from outside the thing?

 

[BDLS]

The current system I am building uses memory modules, these modules each feature 52 inputs and 6 outputs. I could potentially build an entire module in one of these grids but how would that handle that much data from outside the thing?

How would it be different from anything you can make now? The grid would be limitless. The idea is to remove the need for a bunch of logic blocks on your ship and design circuits on a 2D plane (and possibly save them separately from your ship).

 

[CyberTao]

How would it be different from anything you can make now? The grid would be limitless. The idea is to remove the need for a bunch of logic blocks on your ship and design circuits on a 2D plane (and possibly save them separately from your ship).

You missed the point of the post there, Biddles, most advanced logic that takes up a lot of space has multiple inputs.

To use my mech as an example, it has animations that trigger when I turn on an activator (So I push a button, and the arm goes up), but if I push another button first, it does something different. This would require at least 2 buttons to V onto the logic grid somehow, how does your idea allow for this? How are outputs decided? When I push a button, a dozen wireless modules are triggered, and I don't think those would work well on a grid (You could use Wireless Logic as the gateway between the various computer grids as a solution, but then you substantially increased the size of some people's arrays).

 

[Knack]

Similar to something i suggested a while ago.
The thing is, even if you have only one input and one output, i know many small circuits what would fit into such a block.
The easiest way to make this a little better is to set up two Input blocks in the grid, one OR and one AND. OR is high if any input is high, AND is high if all Inputs are high.
The same could be done with outputs. If any output is high and the block is connected to OR, OR receives high.
If both outputs are high and the block is connected to AND, AND is high.
What could fit in one such block:
Clocks with any imaginable tick-interval
Counter
Serial Datastorage
XOR, XNOR, Halfadder, Serial Fulladder
...