When do we 'lock-in' ?

[Lukwan]

This thread is about the decision to 'lock-in' or start fresh. We are the early adopters for a game that has not even left it's Alpha-state yet. Our community debates making fundamental changes to the game mechanic and I can see two conflicting aspects to some decisions; should we keep a feature the same to preserve the work that has gone into existing builds, or can we 'break' something so that it will work better for all builds that come after?

For example, I joined a thread trying to improve the detailing of small builds. I threw out a suggestion that would alter the smallest slab by giving it bevels. The idea did not get traction (and for the record- I am not trying to resurrect it). The best argument against the idea was " this will change my existing builds".

So that brings us to this thread and what I hope will be a civil discussion. On the one hand the current players of SM are likely going to be core-community after the game is released and preserving their great builds is a worthy sentiment. On the other hand I would like people to look ahead to the games full release (and we hope massive popularity) and imagine how many more players there will be...and how many ships they (and we) are going to build over the following years. Will our current builds still be relevant? Is it more important to maintain the museum of our past or should consider the shipyards of the future?

 

[Dandy]

My personal opinion is that our current builds will live forever as examples of the game's beginnings. Though I see no reason that the devs should tailor development of any aspect of the game to cater to the continued relevance of our current builds into beta and full release. We're having fun with what we have right now, and that's great, but to limit future creativity for the sake of our past pursuits seems like the proverbial bullet in the foot. I'm all for any innovation in the design of StarMade that improves our experience and widens our creative scope, regardless of how that affects anything I've built over the past couple of years.

-Dan

 

[jontyfreack]

hmm, this thread just got me thinking.

when the game is released we will be looked at as the masters of ship design, as sages, as the lords of the stars. the new players looking at us and our factions in awe, dreaming of being part of one faction and being part of a universe wide battle, with us at the head marking the way and the new players going by our word without hesitation or flaw. our ships will be looked at as masterpieces, the ultimate ship, the grandest station, the most beautiful, and the most powerful, and most importantly as prizes and relics of days of old, essentially written into the lore of the game by the community. "i was there when that titan was built, I saw it as it changed how combat worked" and said titan might even be in fan art of the game made from a newer player, as it is ships like what we build now that will be in the hearts of the players when the game is released. they will influence how the new player will build their ship, they will influence how a player will fight, and how they play the game.

one day me you, you, you and you, and you, and you, and the other you, all of you, will be asked to tell the story of starmade, how it grow, how the universe is how it is today, and most importantly, what part did you play...


I should write a book

 

[Gasboy]

I We should write a book

For serious.

 

[Scypio]

I should write a book

Please do so.

 

[Pacific_Jim]

By this point I think most of the games core mechanics should left more or less as is, beyond a few balancing tweaks (at least, as far as ship building goes, factions etc still need some major work). Any other core mechanic changes should be in addition to what we already have (for example, the new power system that works in tandem with the existing one). This isn't just because of players having to refit ships, but because Schine are currently in the process of building the non-core aspects of the game, and at this point continuously overhauling the games mechanics would mean the game would never be done.

 

[Groovrider]

Docked reactors are about to get deep sixed. That's a major change that will alter a lot of builds. I think we do ok for looking forward to the new.

 

[Edymnion]

Docked reactors are about to get deep sixed. That's a major change that will alter a lot of builds. I think we do ok for looking forward to the new.

Link, por favor?
[doublepost=1473440703,1473440271][/doublepost]And for the actual topic of the thread:

I'm all for revamping base things to make them better going forwards at the expense of current builds. We've already had a few of those, and they were for the best. Thrusters got a big redesign early on (they used to function like power generators instead of the gap filler they are now), that invalidated a lot of the earliest builds because they no longer had enough thrust to even move. Rails invalidated a lot of older builds (gravity tubes were a biatch to set up!). Cargo invalidated a lot of old builds (suddenly needed twice as big of a ship/station just to hold the cargo blocks), Crews are going to invalidate a lot of builds that didn't leave room for quarters and actual walkable corridors, etc.

Even if its been several years now, we all should be fully aware that this game is still an Alpha. That means EVERYTHING about it can change at the drop of a hat. There are no sacred cows here. If you're so married to something that you can't stand to see it get left behind because the game got better, than you really don't need to be playing an alpha.

Hell, I fully recommend people just fully erase everything and start over from scratch every so often precisely to get away from that kind of sentimental attachment.

 

[nightrune]

Link, por favor?

Just download the dev build. Power Auxiliary blocks are scalable power that is volatile and explodes when hit.

 

[Edymnion]

Just download the dev build. Power Auxiliary blocks are scalable power that is volatile and explodes when hit.

I try not to use the dev builds, I get too used to stuff that isn't actually available normally and it makes it hard to play regular with my long term builds.

Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

 

[jayman38]

I believe we should definitely NOT lock-in during the Alpha Stage. The argument of "ruin all my existing builds" is completely bogus in an Alpha stage game. Even Beta stages are subject to big upsets if gameplay changes are called for. I think we've all seen Release-Game-Patches that completely changed some aspects of the game. Doesn't WoW do that every four years or so?

On the other hand, changes should not be made lightly; a change in gameplay or content should be carefully considered. And I think Schine is doing a great job at that.

Contrast with Robocraft, which I still enjoy: The devs on that game have been making relatively big changes to the game meta with little concern for old designs or how the new meta integrates with existing designs, expectations, gameplay, etc.... And some players don't play it anymore.

Frankly, if a player stops playing the game because a change ruins his existing builds, he cannot expect to push his inertia on the rest of the playerbase. Likewise, even a majority of players who want to maintain their inertia should not expect the playerbase to avoid changes. It's stupid and leads to a mediocre game.

 

[Malacodor]

Link, por favor?

Thermite is Fun!

 

[terra mining corp.]

I think change can be good(but I don't build ships over 10k),so having to upgrade gives you a chance to change things you might not of liked on the original .I'm just hopeing they bring out the npc updates soon for us rp players

 

[Edymnion]

I think change can be good(but I don't build ships over 10k),so having to upgrade gives you a chance to change things you might not of liked on the original

Every time you build it, you'll build it better.

A few people could frankly use the kick in the pants to redo their thinking on some things.

 

[Karride]

I think lock in now is definitely premature. Expecting an Alpha game to keep you designs relevant as they work in new features and balance, shows how little most people understand design and development.

Not only that, but Schine has done a pretty good job of giving us tools to work through any drastic changes. The whole point of us getting the remove filter was that it allowed an easy way to easily remove/reconfigure a system in the event of a drastic change (weapons at the time, or was it shields?). End of the day, you can cut all the systems out of a design and start over system wise very quickly.

 

[Lecic]

I think ruining existing builds is definitely something that should be paid attention to when pushing out updates, as needing to refit everything you've ever built causes major burnout for individuals and factions. If push comes to shove on an issue, though, a better balanced game should always be the priority. See: Docked Reactors vs Auxiliary Power.

(It's really easy to refit ships to use Auxiliary Power, btw. I've already done it for some of my ships.)

 

[DrTarDIS]

I think there just needs to be "fast track" support for getting established on a new server, and other than that "starting from scratch" isn't the greatest of hassles.
Refitting a large build is tedious, but not too "unrewarding"
Starting a fresh build to experiement with new things, or incorporate something you discovered is not "unrewarding"
Starting "fresh" after a server wipe (or switching) and pulling yourself out of the quicksand by your bootstraps IS "unrewarding" after then 3rd time. This is the area that needs attention.

 

[Edymnion]

Starting "fresh" after a server wipe (or switching) and pulling yourself out of the quicksand by your bootstraps IS "unrewarding" after then 3rd time. This is the area that needs attention.

If you are on a server that wipes that often, talk to the admin.

See if they'll give you something like one free admin spawn to put your station back in. Or if they will let you add your home sector to a sector restore list to put you back the way you were.

Or you know, find a new server that doesn't wipe itself every other month?

 

[Karride]

Starting "fresh" after a server wipe (or switching) and pulling yourself out of the quicksand by your bootstraps IS "unrewarding" after then 3rd time. This is the area that needs attention.

While I don't disagree that a "soft-reset" for admins would be nice, it sounds kind of like you have a sucky admin. I try to give plenty of notice before a reset, and export/import anyone's home sector that asks when I do a reset. I've even gone back to a backup 3 months later and pulled someones sector back in.

 

[DrTarDIS]

@ both of you: It's just a fact of alpha game that some updates will break servers. I've been though that on more than one server, for various reasons.
I CAN get to max java credits inside 4 hours doing dirty tricks, I CAN bootstrap myself from astro up to 40kwith passives inside of 3 hours. It's not fun to do that though. That's 3-4 hours of BORING to get up to a chance at a few hours of fun.

I really think it's not just "sucky admins" but a basic flaw in the low-level grind that starmade puts out as "gameplay". One reason I bring it up here: I'd prefer they didn't "lock in" while the very starting gameplay is high-curve, low reward, and unforgiving.