What makes a good mechanic?

[Exozen]

IT'S TIME TO STOP AND THINK

I mean, really... really really reeeaaallllllyyy... just... STOP. Stop and think: What makes a good mechanic?

This whole Systems 2.0 Update we can blame Schema for- but I honestly don't know who's really behind the wheel of these horrible ideas. Every devbuild one after the other seems like- no- IS. Literally IS a bandaid patch to try and make stabilizers work and force the players into a singular, fixed way of building and playing.

Every week wasted trying to fix it only throws us deeper and deeper into total disaster. It is a Freight Train with 2,000 boxcars of depleted uranium heading right to the broken track over the grand canyon. The current state of Starmade has it's problems, Meta means spaghetti ships, interior and effectiveness can be hard to achieve, powerlines can be tedious- but it is in no way, absolutely NO WAY, as bad as this upcoming update will make the game.


Big (but not actually big) Central Reactors are a thing people love, and it's an idea in SciFi everywhere. Chambers are an awesome idea to specialize ships, and can do some amazing stuff... But Stabilizers... Oh... Stabilizers. No one can explain what the purpose of Stabilizers is.

No actually real reason they should exist. I had thought they were to encourage interior, from the original power post explaining what roles the new mechanic should fulfill. But... but APPARENTLY Lancake claims it's to make ships systems... spaced out... but like... WHAT?
- S P A C E D O U T - ?!
Why?! Apparently BECAUSE IT'S HARDER TO REFIT/BUILD WITH FILLED SHIPS?

So really. let's get straight to the point. Stabilizers aren't just a bad mechanic. They're a totally 100% awful mechanic that in no way shape or form should ever be in any game whatsoever.

Why are Stabilizers so bad?
Well lets take a look.

1. Stabilizers force a singular dimension ship like no mechanic ever before seen, utterly and totally decimating creativity of the player. That's right: It's dead, gone, out the window. Freedom of building no longer exists.
   
   
2. Stabilizers require ABSURD DISTANCES to effectively stabilize, further unnecessarily exaggerating this unidimensional way of building.
   
   
3. Stabilizers require more blocks than their reactor just to ensure it does not EXPLODE VIOLENTLY, on top of simply NOT OPERATING at all, AND OVERALL, reactors, chambers, and stabilizers REQUIRE MORE BLOCKS THAN POWER AND DEFENSIVE SYSTEMS NEEDED THAN EVER BEFORE
   
   
4. Stabilizers generate a large, hideous purple beam, that goes from the stabilizer group to the reactor, moving through all through blocks, and, if you happened to have any interior in the path, totally ruining it without any chance of recovery.
   
   
5. Stabilizers' Energy Beam, when hit by any damage, will drain the ship of power
   
   
6. You know what? I don't even care anymore, so instead of making this post and actually writing it properly with concise and easy to read shit that's neatly spread out I'm going to do exactly what Schines' doing and just give up half way through and put in the absolute minimum effort
   
   because I don't even know where I'm going going anymore and I'm so tired give up. I used to love this game but now it's going to a place so bad that even I cannot see myself playing.

• Chambers are cool
• Reactors are kinda cool
  
• The shield changes are unnecessary and largely useless
  
• The Integrity mechanic SUCKS and there is a thousand better ways to do it.
• Stations Are dead
• STABILIZERS ARE FUCKING AWFUL AND EVERYTHING ABOUT THIS IS SINGLE HANDEDLY KILLING STARMADE
• FROM THE EIGHT THOUSAND METER LONG X/Y/or Z REQUIREMENTS
• TO THE REACTOR NOT PROVIDING ANY POWER AND EXPLODING WITHOUT ENOUGH STABILIZERS
• TO THE STUPID ASS GIANT PURPLE BEAM THAT MAKES YOU LOSE POWER

A͖̭̝̓̏́̍̀ͅĻ͈̣ͩͨL̑ ̅H̼̼͓͈͘Â̻̗̎ͯ̒ͭ͋̈́͢I̼̱͎͕̎͆̊L̩͝ ̢̰̬̲̖̼͐̄͊̂ͫ̽̓S͍̓̓̈͒̇̀P͍̲͕̫̝ͩͣ̆͑ͮ͐̓A͔̪͔̰̐̍́ͪG̬H̹̫̞͇ͮ̈̉̀̍E̹̘̭̯͎͖͐̾ͣT̡͕T̮̤̟̥̉̇͒ͫͤ̓͊͢I͉̍ͬ̃ͯ̅


T̻̂̐̌͗̌͐ͣH̞ͩ̊̆ͬ̇̚A̳̞͐̅͒ͦ̋ͭT̟̩̥̃̒ͬͪ ̺̺̹̠̠͂͛ͥWḪ̙͚̾I͉͂ͣͪ͂̋̎ͭC̭͌͋̓ͤ̍ͫH̠̭̞̬͍͈͉ͧ͐̐̐ ̗̙ͬͫͬ͂ͤ̉ͥI̅̓̌ͯ̆S͍̱̦̟̲̓̃ͩͩ ̠̲̜͔̻̤̌ͪ̃͆̂ͅN͚̱̦ͭ̈̉̃ͨ̓̽Ō̥͉̼̖̤̼͆ͅT̤͚͚͇̘ ̗̰͍̩̠̤̟̊̇̇ͪͫͫ̚D̝͔̣̪̽̊̃͛̄̈́E͕̪͓̣̹ͬ̂̃ͧ͐Ả̘̬̞̥͇̜͔̍̈́̌D̮̳̂͗̐̈́ͯͯ ̘̟͇̣̤͙ͮͦͨC̯͇̘ͥA̠͚͕͇͓̰ͬ̿̾N̻͙͕̞̱ͩ ̄ͬ̆͋͒͌̈́Ȇ̫̥T̰̭̻̅E̖̻̙̲Ṙ̲͕̠̻̖͊̂ͮ͂̌͑ͅN̔ͨͨͭA̱̩͎ͥͯ̎Lͧ̆̎ ̘̗̦̏̈́ͭ͑̏͆ͅL͕̯͕̝̹̖̑͌ͥ̾ͨ̃̏I̦̠̣̺͍̖ͫͬ͛E̘̙̖̗̓́̊̋,͖̗͆ͣ̉̌̌ͬ͛ ̮̲̞̭ͪͥ̃̅͛͆͛ͅA̫̲̝̳͇̭̺ͤ̈́̐̐́N͔̗͇̩̟̅ͩ͒D̥̦͚̘͎̙̻ͤ͆ͧ ̟̫̽Ẉ̠̹̱͚̝̤̾̈́̐ͤ̐ͬ̓I̮̯̟̲̙̤ͥ̄̆̅̓T͖̰̥̭̞̙͗ͨ̌͊ͅH̘͍͈͔̲̱̯ͬ̾̈́ͣͯ̌͗ ̩̞͌ͭ͆̂S̖̫̭̙̬̺̣ͩ̍̇̊͐TͅR̎ͫ̈́̆ͫ̐Á̰̼͍͖̣͈̓̾̆ͬN̖͕̼͇ͅG͇̪̉ͅEͪ͊ͧ̒ͦ̌̚ ̞̦̈́̎ͬͥ̐̌Å̟ͮͪẺ̼͚ͧ̿̆̚O̙̐̂͛̽̔N̞͈̦͕̪̗͆̐͒ͪͧ̃ͅS̲̩ͥ͊̿̓̄ͨ ͈̠͖̣͕̄E͈̟̣͆̽V̻͎ͥ͗͑̃͆͐͆E̪̼̪͑̔N͓͓̹̠̯̍ ̺D̘̻͓̺͒ͣ̄ͧͮ̀E͍͙̳͉͌̀̏̉͐̓͋ͅA̠̺̮͊̽ͮ͛̽̑T̬̪̯̼̉̐̍͋͂͐H̭̜ͨ̆́͗ͪ̚ ͚ͪͣ̚Ṁ͙͓̩À͚͚̗̟̦̥Y̘̳̌ ͙̺̥̣̭̗̓̈̉̽̑Dͫͧ̒Ȉ̿ͬ̇̃E̯̤͇̲


P̣͖͚̋͆̎͐͛͛̒̀Ḥ̨͈͌ͤ̎̑͆̓'͎̲͇̩̩̞̳ͩ͐͊̎̃͞N͍̲͙͖̦ͪG̺ͩ̅̈ͯͥͩḺ̨͇̖̙̐̄U͙̪̦̦̙̓̿̄̓̈́̓̚I̩̠̯̎͐̏͟ ̮͒͐ͧͣ̓̉̚͝ ̻̗͍͇̕M͕̘̘̦̘͙ͩͬG̝̯̲̓͛̈́ͪL̸̓ͩW̻̜̫͈̄̽̍ͩ̽'̤̱͖͖̫N̡͉̫̻̤͉ͨ̄A̴͖̯̗͎̘F̡͗ͪ̓̐H̛̙ͪ̔̀̉ͧͩ ̢͓̲̗̳̖̦̈́͛ͨͮͧͥ̒ ̳̪C̴͓͎̼͙̣͉̄̎̈́̒T̹́̈́̕H̦͉̚U̸L͋̒͂ͣͦͮ͠U̥̖̜̬̟̲̓̆̇̀͜ ͊͂ͨͮ͌̈ ̍ͤ̉ͣ̋̽R̤͈̯͖̣̩'̯͊̐̊́̌ͮL̶͓̺͓̽̌̓ͧ͊̂̂Y͙̘̦̩̗͓̟̐͛̄ͩͧ̚͡E̼͉H̫̹̦̱̙͎ͩ ̮̥̬͚̝ ̬̼͇ͥ̎ͣW̵G͉̰̗͂̂̈̾̐ͪ͋A̜̖ͩͦ͛͊̏H̥̖͙͇͐ͯͤͬͩ͛͞'̴̣͙̖̤̋N̦̖̮͉̫̎̓̾̌̊̒͟A̪̹̩̣ͤ̽͋́G͘L̴̘͔̥̻̻ͤͧ ̷̟̰ͅ ̟̹͚̠ͩ̾̌͑F͗ͦ͗̇҉̰̩Ĥ̳͈̯̪̜͈̂ͮͮ̋̍̔͠T̡͚̟͗ͪ͐ͯ̂̉A͈̝̺̰̮͚̜̐̓̒ͩ͆̒͡G͎̳̖̖̹̖̍̒̽ͫ̄̚ͅN̷͇̯̲̗

Spoiler: Source:

 

[Mr. Morague]

In all seriousness;
1. Chambers are a good idea for certain things. Stealth and recon being from the chamber itself should go. Upgrading them should stay. Mass should stay. FTL coming from chamber should go, upgrading stay. Mobility and logistics should be modified slightly but stay.

2. I can get behind stabilizers, just not in their current form. IDK what form I'd want, just not this one.

3. Reactors were a good idea. However, only one reactor being active at a time is not. I'd rather have it so that chambers affect all reactors the same, so no reactors for different situations.

4. Repulsers were a qol addition, I approve of them.

5. The shield system should absolutely be reverted. Or even make them group like reactors and cover the whole ship. I don't like the idea of bubble shields, especially when I'd have to consume more power to cover the same ship.

6. The stabilizer beam is an interesting concept. I want to see where it goes before saying yay or nay.

No comment on stations, docking, integrity, rhp, shp, etc.

 

[Raisinbat]

The fundamental problem with systems 2.0 is that it contradicts the core shipbuilding mechanics instead of adding to them.

At it's absolute basics competitive shipbuilding is about mass distribution, just like games such as master of orion, but with systems 2.0 mass is disregarded for the sake of arbitrary patterns and fixed effects, but ultimately discussing what makes a good mechanic good is overlooking the bigger issue with starmade:

What the fuck are the devs trying to make?

X Rebirth lets you shoot out turrets in your little fighter. The turrets aren't even covered by the main shields but by small local shields (sound familiar?) that are much weaker and can also be shot off. It's really fun zipping around larger capitals staying out of the firing arcs of its heavier guns while slowly wearing it down until sending in your boarding team and adding the ship to your collection (+)

But what happens after that? When you've captured yourself a small fleet of capitals and go looking for bigger game? Those fragile turrets make fleet combat attrocious; A fighter obviously cant throw around as much DPS as a capital can, so now you have the problem where capitals engaging each other are frequently determined in a single hit; a missile strike or some of the heavier guns can instantly disable another ships main turret battery and then it's just boned. Just like coring in starmade combat becomes accidental and random. (-)

Another thing is ship mobility; obviously if you're playing a game where you're flying around shooting bad guys you want to minimize the time between badguys, since nothing is happening, but for a fleet setting how are you supposed to defend territory if people can just go wherever they want all the time? Theres no early warning when you're about to be attacked so you have no time to respond, and when you do respond they can just go somewhere else.

The fundamental problem with starmade is that "It's a game where you build and fly spaceships" isn't a summary of it, it's the only concept the devs are working from, and that simply does not work as a vision for a game. Pretty much every disagreement between serious people (Not counting mouthbreathers like criss and jojomo who should really just fuck off with a coloring book) stems from disagreeing on what game starmade should be. This has gotten much worse since devs are now focussing on features that don't actually have anything to do with the spaceships, like planets, crew, interiors etc. If people wanted a game where all you do is make and explore beautiful interiors and player built bases then why aren't they playing now?

Starmade used to be better than space engineers and empyrion. You can't fight ship-to-ship in those games, you can't even make ships that have any real personality to them other than cosmetically; a ship in those games are nothing more than a metal husk some engines and turrets strapped to them. Starmade let you make ships that were unique, defined by more than which button in the interface you pushed, and now? Thrown away for a glorified skilltree that doesn't give a fuck what ship it's attached to.

X-rebirth has finally gotten to a reasonably playable state after years of post release development, most importantly mods that remove the crew and interior focus of the vanilla game so you aren't forced to waddle around interiors and talk to dipshit crewmembers regurgitating the same tired lines over and over for hours when you just wanted to fly around in spaceships, and now it looks like starmade is eagerly throwing itself off every single fucking cliff X-rebirth tumbled down. Given Schine's history of forcing players into doing exactly what they want, i guarantee you we will be forced into walking around interiors and interact with the crew; after all they spent so much time developing those features, they can't just let us fly around and have fun.

Oh and i'm just waiting for the news of the update that will finally make everything great and perfect:

Starmade VR edition

 

[Zoolimar]

With power streams happening I'm tempted to say - allow multiple reactors and make them feed only systems connected by power streams. If the power stream is hit damage goes to both the system and reactor. If there is stabilisers they take the reactor part of damage (no stab distance, they could be placed anywhere).

Want 1000 reactor the size of 1 block to feed 1 system ? You'll get 1000 streams that could be hit by the incoming fire and are not protected by shields (you'll need to encase them in some kind of a tube for that). Or you could build 3-5 reactors and connect each to its own systems. With docked entities power streams go to and from docking ports, or you could just make inbuilt reactors as they scale linearly and there is not much difference in having them on the main body or on the docked part.

The Integrity mechanic SUCKS and there is a thousand better ways to do it.

There are maybe better ways to do it. But it depends also on what is easier to do computationally as there is a lot of checks to be made. So it may be the less heavy variant. And it works. Though I'd say it also needs to give a bonus to power of systems with high integrity (say up to +100% of power per block).

 

[MacThule]

Ditch the stabilizers or remake them as chambers and let reactors do their thing, regardless of space.

Change chambers to a system of outlining interior spaces in a framed way similar to the way shipyard modules frame shipyard space. The space enclosed determines the chamber size instead of or in-ratio with the blocks used to frame it. Require chambers to be 40% filled with decor to gain full effect from the chamber so that people aren't leaving them empty to minimize damage. Require chambers to connect to each other to kill islands.

Viola - interior space provided, reactors simplified, build meta fixed, moving right along.

 

[Lecic]

I voted No on your poll because I actually like the reactor and chamber system. I just think stabilizers suck. The update doesn't need to be reworked from the ground up, it just needs the stabilizer code commented out.

Oh, and the new shields suck. Those can go too.

 

[Non]

I voted No on your poll because I actually like the reactor and chamber system.

How do you feel about reactor capacity? I see no reason for the arbitrary connection between chambers and reactors, when it could just as easily work like the effect system.

 

[MacThule]

How do you feel about reactor capacity? I see no reason for the arbitrary connection between chambers and reactors, when it could just as easily work like the effect system.

Strongly agreed. Also move them out of "power" in shops because they don't provide power, they modify and enhance other systems and provide other capabilities.

 

[Lecic]

How do you feel about reactor capacity? I see no reason for the arbitrary connection between chambers and reactors, when it could just as easily work like the effect system.

Chambers allow for more possibilities than the old effects system, which needed an individual block type for each one. They allow for better specification as you go down the chain of a chamber.

As far as function wise, I like how they are tied to reactor size rather than the mass-based of old effects, because mass-based is unnecessarily restrictive on armor tanks.

 

[Non]

Chambers allow for more possibilities than the old effects system, which needed an individual block type for each one. They allow for better specification as you go down the chain of a chamber.

You could do the same thing by slaving computers.

As far as function wise, I like how they are tied to reactor size rather than the mass-based of old effects, because mass-based is unnecessarily restrictive on armor tanks.

Then how about making their size dependent on the systems they modify instead?

 

[Lecic]

Then how about making their size dependent on the systems they modify instead?

That could work too, but I'm happy with the current system. I don't see a reason to do a massive overhaul of chambers. The way I see it, if you're putting specialization into a system, it's probably one of your larger systems anyway, so you're not really changing anything by basing it off reactor size than specific system size.

 

[Non]

That could work too, but I'm happy with the current system. I don't see a reason to do a massive overhaul of chambers. The way I see it, if you're putting specialization into a system, it's probably one of your larger systems anyway, so you're not really changing anything by basing it off reactor size than specific system size.

I just dont like that its arbitrary, power consumption would tie it into the reactor enough.

 

[GnomeKing]

nothing more than a metal husk some engines and turrets strapped to them. Starmade let you make ships that were unique, defined by more than which button in the interface you pushed, and now? Thrown away for a glorified skilltree that doesn't give a fuck what ship it's attached to.

 

[kulbolen]

What makes a good mechanic?

i usually judge by the cost and quality of their job on my cars

 

[Sachys]

i usually judge by the cost and quality of their job on my cars

*tumbleweeds

 

[Brokengauge]

i usually judge by the cost and quality of their job on my cars

I am disappointed that I was beaten to this punchline...

 

[madman Captain]

well I voted no cause aside from the stablelisers (witch need a bit finetuning) I like what they did with the systems. I like building ships around ideas and the new systems are full of things where you can build ships around it. Shields confuse me, while i like the idea of having multiple shield zones like in games like Starpoint Gemini 2 or Rebel Galaxy, I dont understand how they work (maybe a tutorial will help me out).
But yeah I like the ideas behind the new stuff, not always good executed but I like it.


Edit: Not another Power rework please, I'm tired of this standing still on one thing. Rework the weapons if you want but please leave power alone and step forward.

 

[AtraUnam]

I'd like to answer the thread title instead of the poll:
A good mechanic is one with simple rules but great depth that emerges from those rules.

 

[Edymnion]

well I voted no cause aside from the stablelisers (witch need a bit finetuning) I like what they did with the systems. I like building ships around ideas and the new systems are full of things where you can build ships around it.

Same. I agree stabilizers still need a little work, but its in the range of "This is doable, we just need to tweak it a bit" instead of the "wargarble the sky is falling!". I also really like the idea of there being some level of building ships around the systems instead of just shoehorning anything into any shape. It makes things feel more real when everything is, at some level, following "the laws of physics".

You know, I didn't like the cargo blocks when they came out, because I didn't like the idea of having to build ships and stations around the requirement for all these extra blocks. Retrofitting enough cargo space into my old stations and ships was a PAIN. But? Now I'm a better builder because of it because figuring out how to add all of those in a pleasing way encouraged me to consider build options I wouldn't have bothered with before. Building form around functionality ended up making for more realistic looking ships and stations, and I'm all for that.

Can't wait until crew is put in and just totally invalidates 90% of the builds people have and forces everybody to rethink how they do things.

Shields confuse me, while i like the idea of having multiple shield zones like in games like Starpoint Gemini 2 or Rebel Galaxy, I dont understand how they work (maybe a tutorial will help me out).

Its not quite as hard as it seems at first.

Shield Generators make shield power bubbles. The more generators in a single clump you have, the bigger the bubble is. Any capacitors inside the bubble can draw power from those generators. Only blocks inside a bubble are protected by shields. If two bubbles overlap, only the most powerful bubble counts.

Its actually a pretty good way to put downward pressure on ship size, as the shield power bubbles suffer diminishing returns, meaning if you have a 5km ship, you need multiple shield sets to cover it all, which means a lot more mass in shield blocks and power (can't just shove 10 million shields in a corner somewhere and call it a day, if you want 10 million shields all over, you may end up with 100 million's worth of blocks spread out into 10 mil sections).

 

[Qweesdy]

I voted no, because:

a) Most of the things I really want have nothing to do with power (e.g. actual crew including rooms that give bonuses, consumables like food and fuel, much better performance, etc); and my chances of actually getting any of these things is the same (very small) regardless of which power system the game uses.

b) I can see where the developers are going with "power 2.0" now, and while it needs some major balancing (and not just for reactors and stabilisers) and there are things I wish were done differently, I doubt that it'll be worse than Power 1.0 when the developers are finished.

c) There are parts of power 2.0 that, in principle, I like (e.g. the ability to have multiple shield facings, the ability to prioritise power consumers, the way chambers make it easier for developers and modders to extend)

d) I don't think the community can sustain another 10+ months of waiting for "power 3.0" if Power 2.0 is scrapped.