[VOTE] Should voting for Councilors require you to purchase the game?

[Comr4de]

Maybe it would help if someone in the know could comment on how many alt accounts were caught trying to vote. To be totally frank, it would not be hard for me to accumulate 15-20 accounts over the period of three months before an election that would meet the criteria duke put in his points system. The only way to be 100% sure is to require a game purchase. I know that sucks but in order to remove all doubt from the scenario the safest approach is to require a game purchase. Then in order to achieve a plurality of alt accounts to sway an election I would need to drop 150-200 dollars.

I'd also like to point out that banned users still play the game. Kicking them out of being able to vote is unacceptable if you seek to avoid disenfranchisement. I was unable to vote in the most recent election because of this. I've got a lot to say about how draconian SMD bans are but that's a debate for a different thread.

 

[therimmer96]

I was unable to vote in the most recent election because of this.

This is ridiculous, especially considering the fact that Schine does not actually run SMD. the point of separating forums and schine was so that schine wasn't liable for things that happen here. This should extend to the users aswell.

 

[jorgekorke]

The council represents all players, paid and unpaid, if I'm not mistaken.

Since the Council represents all Starmade players, not just those who have bought the game, surely there is a way to prevent voter fraud that doesn't disenfranchise any players?

Voting could at the very least be made more difficult by restricting votes by IP address, or phone number, or something to that end.

I assume a person who hasn't paid the game is not really interested on hard development, and its only intention is to just spend some time playing. They wouldn't, and shouldn't really care at all.

Making a minimum message requirement will only lead to flooding and pointless replies, like "omg i i agree" "ok" "ohhh"

 

[kiraen]

People who have purchased the game have made a commitment to the game and to it's future.
People who have purchased the game have, at the very least, the permission of an adult.

I know nothing of odium and I don't care. The thread may be recent, but the idea has been around longer then the last election. Frankly, it surprises me that this wasn't implemented from the beginning.

I want this implemented to limit the number of troll accounts that just show up to cause trouble.

If you are committed to this game and want it to succeed, prove it. If you can't come up with $15 dollars, then you shouldn't be wasting you time on the computer anyway. Go get a job. Even a 10 yo can sell lemonade.

I don't mind unpaid accounts making suggestions and expressing their opinions. But actual decisions should be limited to people who have actually made an effort to support the game.

 

[Aynslei]

I have seen only two valid concerns raised in opposition to this proposed idea.

One that players who have not purchased the game should still have a say in development of the game and council.

To this I say nothing really changes, they still have every opportunity to post suggestion in the relevant sub-forums. They would have every ability to quite literally campaign for someone they wish to be elected even if they can not vote themselves. Lastly they could easily speak to any of the councilors to make sure their voice is being heard.

Two that it is a form of pay wall which limits something from a public polling into a polling of the community invested into it.

I would be inclined to agree that pay walls can be very frustrating to someone, but in the case of this game in particular many hundreds(possibly thousands) of people have gotten the game for next to nothing though various deals or sales that have happened in the past.
So in my opinion of the choice between the two, (pay-wall vs points system) I have to choose the pay-wall. As I do not think the point system can be implemented in a way that is both restrictive enough to not be by-passed by alts still, or so restrictive it excludes more people than buying would.


Imagination01 Until you can give us all a better reason than "Lecic is a forum warrior bitch and I don't like that" I am going to consider your arguments invalid and tantamount admission of guilt.

 

[FlyingDebris]

Well looking at the voting thus far, I think that there is a very clear majority in favor of making voting for council more restrictive, and of the two restrictive choices, just one vote under a 3/4 majority in favor of a paywall. Maybe it's just me, but aside from a few very heated opponents (one of whom is involved in a good part of the reason this is even an issue), the community at large is almost unanimously in agreement.

 

[Lecic]

Especially considering Lecic has made suggestions in the past that the only purpose of them being to put us at disadvantage, just like this one.

Lecic has made "suggestions" that were targeted at putting Odium as disadvantage before, he even has admitted some of them were made for this purpose at some points.

and when you combine that with the fact that almost every suggestion Lecic makes on the forums is there to nerf Odium, it brings to light how Lecic will do anything to gain an edge over us, regardless of how low he has to stoop.

Can you provide some actual examples of suggestions I've made that would "nerf Odium"? I mean, I asked for some nerfs to swarmers way back when they were extremely OP, but I don't think you guys even use those much anymore, do you?

Also worth mentioning Lecic accused HolyCookie of getting into the council by utilising Odium alts to vote for him.

It has everything to do with this, this whole suggestion is so that Thryn can stop Odium guys getting into council and start putting Thryn guys into council.

Whether I personally think alt shenanigans may have been involved in a councilor's election has no effect on the merits of my suggestion. Besides, if Cookie got elected fair and square, then there's nothing to worry about, now is there?

The council represents all players, paid and unpaid, if I'm not mistaken.

Just because people have not spent money on an early access game, does not mean they should not be able to have a say in who represents them.

Unfortunately, in a world where it would be incredibly easy to set up fake accounts and rig the council elections, even through Duke's points system, some precautions must be made. And if that means a player who refuses to purchase the game for whatever reason (If you've played over 2 hours of the game for free, unless you are physically disabled, you probably could have purchased it by doing odd jobs for 2 hours instead) is unable to vote to protect the integrity of the election, then so be it.

I would agree that everyone should be able to vote, regardless of purchase status, if we had a large community that would make alt vote fraud nigh-impossible, but we don't, so we need it.

I understand that you, Imagination01, may be personally opposed to the suggestion since you haven't bought the game, but you need to look at the bigger picture.

 

[kiraen]

the community at large is almost unanimously in agreement.

I can't really support this statement.
At the time of my post (this one) we are only just now coming up on the 24 hour mark. I think the voting should be open for at least a week before drawing any conclusions. I see the most forum activity on Sundays, some people may only get on once a week.

I'd like to see over 100 votes, at least. 45 people is not a large enough cross section, in my opinion.

Having said that, we are definitely trending towards some sort of requirements for voting.

 

[jstenholt]

Some requirement, yes. But I can't put into words how strongly I am against that requirement being game ownership. One day, yes, when the game is released, but not in bloody alpha. I purchased Starmade because I immediately fell in love three years ago, but not everybody with an interest in the game would care enough about an alpha to purchase it. In fact, I myself am against purchasing a game in alpha under most circumstances (why I haven't opted in for Star Citizen.)

But that is neither here nor there.

The ideal solution, IMO? The devs should implement DukeofRealms 's point system, WITHOUT TELLING US. That way, dumb asshats who feel the need to rig an election for a volunteer position on the forum for a video game that is still in alpha could still waste their time with fake accounts, and have zero impact on said election.

 

[DukeofRealms]

To be totally frank, it would not be hard for me to accumulate 15-20 accounts over the period of three months before an election that would meet the criteria duke put in his points system

I could easily make it so this would be incredibly difficult for you to achieve. Sure, you could still do it, it'd take you more time than it would be worth. Someone could just as easily purchase some licenses and achieve the same thing. Time is money.

I was unable to vote in the most recent election because of this.

That's impossible, considering banned forum users were still allowed to vote. Nothing from the forum was taken into consideration when determining if a user was able to vote in the previous election.

This is ridiculous, especially considering the fact that Schine does not actually run SMD. the point of separating forums and schine was so that schine wasn't liable for things that happen here. This should extend to the users aswell.

The forums are an official StarMade site. The point of separating the forums was because the people who made it didn't work for Schine at the time and were not paid by Schine. It is a community run website with substantial guidance from Schine. The reason you mention is a nice unintended side effect. It is a minor reason to keep them separate.

I've got a lot to say about how draconian SMD bans are but that's a debate for a different thread.

The Terms of Service and Rules, as well as the moderator's guideline, were all submitted to Schine for review. Parts were added and modified by Schine before being implemented. At the end of the day, this site is an official representative of StarMade. As such, this site has to comply with any requests Schine makes to keep its official status (not very many requests are made). Getting banned from SMD means you've violated the Terms of Service and Rules of this site, which were designed to keep SMD (an official representative of StarMade) a positive experience for existing and potential customers. The community of a game can have a heavy influence on a potential customer, this is why these rules are in place.

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As for my own opinion...

I have always supported requiring users to purchase the game to be able to vote. The main reason for this is not to prevent voter fraud, but, simply because I can not think of any compelling reason not to. StarMade won't always be free to play; we do need money to continue developing this game. It wouldn't make much sense in the future when StarMade is no longer free to play, to have people electing a council when they haven't purchased the game. As a bonus, it also makes it harder for voter fraud to occur (still not guaranteed).

However, I think it's absurd to think that forcing users to purchase the game to vote will completely prevent this. It's very easy to get your hands on a lot of StarMade keys for a very small price. It will not guarantee a prevention, but it will make it harder.

 

[Comr4de]

That's impossible, considering banned forum users were still allowed to vote. Nothing from the forum was taken into consideration when determining if a user was able to vote in the previous election.

Well, for starters I was unable to actually access the council page since clicking any link as a banned user gives you the "you are banned" message. Second, whenever I actually attempted to vote, the voting page would not load at all. From the beginning of voting to the end. If this was unintended behavior, it prevented myself and others from voting for councillors (I confirmed with Aceface, who was also unable to vote from his account).

 

[terra mining corp.]

Ok everyone i'm putting my flame proof hanes on so here goes....I think if you enjoy the game and care where it will be in years to come you would have purchased a copy already.And for the new comers they can watch the forums and make a informed vote when the next vote happens.

 

[Master_Artificer]

Another side effect would be that this makes steam keys for the game more valuable and desired.

 

[Imagination01]

The forums are an official StarMade site. The point of separating the forums was because the people who made it didn't work for Schine at the time and were not paid by Schine. It is a community run website with substantial guidance from Schine. The reason you mention is a nice unintended side effect. It is a minor reason to keep them separate.

RedAlert wanted me to put this out there for anyone wondering
[DOUBLEPOST=1461737891,1461737564][/DOUBLEPOST]Also, this vote as of the time of writing has about 47 or so votes, I sincerely hope Schine is not considering making a decision based on 47 people, maybe put this on the official Schine website and put a notification encouraging a vote, I reckon this should only be considered when at least 80% of the active community votes and has their say.

 

[therimmer96]

The forums are an official StarMade site. The point of separating the forums was because the people who made it didn't work for Schine at the time and were not paid by Schine. It is a community run website with substantial guidance from Schine. The reason you mention is a nice unintended side effect. It is a minor reason to keep them separate.

Then why is your company still responsible for the site? Why not just hand control over to schine and end this confusion? Both Resba and Koji are inactive anyway, so you're running it.

 

[jstenholt]

For the love of Spock.

When did this forum for the alpha of a spaceship sandbox game become so contentiously dramatic?

And furthermore, are all forums for the alphas of all spaceship sandbox games equally contentious and dramatic?

 

[DukeofRealms]

Well, for starters I was unable to actually access the council page since clicking any link as a banned user gives you the "you are banned" message. Second, whenever I actually attempted to vote, the voting page would not load at all. From the beginning of voting to the end. If this was unintended behavior, it prevented myself and others from voting for councillors (I confirmed with Aceface, who was also unable to vote from his account).

The council site is separate from the forum (council.star-made.org), the links you clicked on were from the forum page. As for not being able to vote, there was a brief period when the voting was broken. When the voting closed, the election page still showed for many days, but it didn't accept votes. This caused a lot of confusion. SMD doesn't currently provide access to the banned users list. There are two ways this could be achieved, going through every user page and checking for a banned username tag. Or, having unauthorized access to the ban list . I know both of those are not true.

Even when the voting was held on the forum site, the application still allowed banned users to vote.

RedAlert wanted me to put this out there for anyone wondering

AndyP I believe he meant Schine does not run StarMade Dock. It is very confusing, so I don't blame people for getting it mixed up.

Also, this vote as of the time of writing has about 47 or so votes, I sincerely hope Schine is not considering making a decision based on 47 people, maybe put this on the official Schine website and put a notification encouraging a vote, I reckon this should only be considered when at least 80% of the active community votes and has their say.

As for making decisions on changing this, it will be an internal discussion. The poll is to simply get an indication and spark useful conversation on why or why not. This thread has already been very useful, thank you Lecic for bringing it up. As for 80%, that would be impossible. Of the StarMade community, the majority do not frequent this forum or our other official sites. And of those that do, many of them are lurkers and would not participate in a vote.

Then why is your company still responsible for the site? Why not just hand control over to schine and end this confusion? Both Resba and Koji are inactive anyway, so you're running it.

This has been a continued discussion for 2 years now. I'd still be running it if or when it gets absorbed by Schine It'd be exactly the same, except less confusing and hopefully no advertisements.

And furthermore, are all forums for the alphas of all spaceship sandbox games equally contentious and dramatic?

Most forums get "dramatic" at times, this one would be considered average for a gaming site. It's heavily dependent on the audience.

 

[Reilly Reese]

Both Resba and Koji are inactive anyway, so you're running it.

Resba is actually semi-active now.

 

[therimmer96]

Resba is actually semi-active now.

Last seen 2 weeks ago.

K. >_>

 

[Reilly Reese]

For the love of Spock.

When did this forum for the alpha of a spaceship sandbox game become so contentiously dramatic?

And furthermore, are all forums for the alphas of all spaceship sandbox games equally contentious and dramatic?

Want a no drama space sandbox forum? Here! http://forums.blockaderunnergame.com/