System Tiers

[TheOmega]

Okay, have you ever thought, MAN, I wish I could make something unnecessarily complex in order to do something simple? Me too, so I'm going to avoid that.

System tiers:

T1: Current systems (Basic Systems)

T2: Standard Systems

Weapons: Weapons could have tiered computers that allow multiple effects to be added, Or support systems, or both.

Balance: They would be expensive to make, like REALLY expensive and couldn't be bought at shops.
​

Other ship systems: Simply more condensed and more efficient, like instead of how power blocks work, they would increase linearly with group size.

Balance: Same as above.
​

T3: Advanced Systems

Weapons: More effects and support systems

Balance: Exponentially harder to obtain
​

Other ship systems: Same things, but now don't have to be connected in groups, kinda like shields work in groups

Balance: Same as above​

Now Superweapons would be possible, and multiple effects would work exponentially, same with supports.
If you want it really overpowered, previous tier weapon computers can be linked to higher tier ones while retaining their effects and supports.

Tier 2 is twice as powerful as T1, T3 is twice T2.

EXAMPLE ONE: Execution Superweapon

Weapon tier 3
Controller: T3 Missile
Effects: 3 Tier 3 Explosive effects, for a total equivalent of 108 times normal.
Support: 3 Tier 3 Damage pulse 108 times normal buff, Will not list lower tiers that can be linked with effects
Cost: Only for people who have infinite moneys to hire every person in the multiverse to gather twice the material in existence EVER, told you it wasn't OP for its cost
​

Picture diagrams to come....

 

[Commodore]

IMO one of the best things about Starmade is that there is no grinding other than gathering the resources to build your ship/station. So many games have a leveling system, or have days of playing to get enough fake money to buy what you want. A game that is actually fun shouldn't need a grind to keep people playing.

 

[NeonSturm]

Tier 2 is twice as powerful as T1, T3 is twice T2.

I don't know if I should disagree, but I think that may be too extreme for some cases.

More power, more mass, less thrust efficiency.
More thrusters, more power consumption, more thrust efficiency.
Balanced.

100% increase in one could -at worst- also be a 100% increase in the other.
effectively being 2*2=4 times as strong.


It would also increase ID count by a factor of 3 for the relevant blocks.
__

I would like tiers for scavenger-tier, civilian-tier, military-tier, prototype tier and made 2-3 threads about prototype, flagship, tech and quality tiers before.

http://starmadedock.net/threads/prototype-ships-flagships.2762/
Prototype ships / Flagships
Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by NeonSturm, Aug 26, 2014

The idea is that the whole ship is of Flagship-Tier
(or some block types of it are of Prototype-Tier).

 

[TheOmega]

The thing is, by at least increasing the weapons to 3 tiers, it opens up thousands of options. There are currently 4 Master/slave systems if i can remember from the top of my head, and we don't have to tier effects or ship systems.
Say you took a missile, and had 3 T2 Damage Pulse computers, each with T1 Damage Pulse computer linked, for a grand total of 6 T1 and 3 T2, the effect would be exponentially multiplied to about 3! x 2 + 6! (3! for the 3 T2 computers, and 6! for the 6 T1's). The downside is it would take around 1000 years to build the computers, and the recharge from the slave systems would be insane with a capital Q.
Obviously, my balancing is to make them impossible to get, and you cant have a ship with these as blueprints because you can't buy them in shops.

 

[starhaiden]

but if they take for every to craft why would you bother using them?

 

[Crimson-Artist]

last i heard tiered systems (power/shields) is confirmed. but theres been no word on them for a long time so we'll see how it goes

 

[TheOmega]

Not forever, just a long time. Would you like everyone and their grandma running around with a weapon that can destroy planets in one shot?

 

[ltmauve]

The one thing that I think needs to be a requirement is that the tiers are linearly scaling with each other. That is, if I take a ship with T1 components and then replace everything with T2 or T3 components, it should be power stable if it was before, and power unstable if it was before. If my shields took X seconds to recharge at T1, then they should take X seconds to recharge at T2 or T3.

The one thing that's going to be weird about this is thrust. Either higher tier thrust blocks are more powerful or more efficient. If they are more powerful, then ships can get a better TWR, giving larger ships more maneuverability. If they give more efficiency, then it makes larger ships more power stable while thrusting. Given those two options, engines should get more efficient.

 

[TheOmega]

If you replace ALL systems on a ship with their same tiered counterparts, it would be the same.

 

[ltmauve]

Also, I feel like all mechanics of grouping should stay the same between different tiers. At T3 having no grouping rules whatsoever removes al challenges to building. Instead, these mechanics should be more important at higher tiers.

 

[NeonSturm]

That is, if I take a ship with T1 components and then replace everything with T2 or T3 components, it should be power stable if it was before, and power unstable if it was before.

At T3 having no grouping rules whatsoever removes al challenges to building. Instead, these mechanics should be more important at higher tiers.

Agree.
But how would you do the later if you want the prior?


We already have 2 tiers.
1kk soft-capped on-board reactors vs docked reactors with power-drain.

With shield-drain we also have 2 tiers here.
It takes about 1/3 of reactor blocks in power drain to transfer all that charge.
But since in-combat shield regen is cut to 1/10, you have about 30% more output per block if you put shields directly on docked, in exchange for only being able to use this power for shield regen.

 

[willvette]

I think there should be T2 weapons and ship systems but not any T3. I also believe that T2 should allow the support weapon to also have it's own support and effect both with a 50% debuff;
T2 Missile - missile support and explosive effect- 2ed beam support (50%) and ion effect (50%)
M-M = swarm missiles
M-B = lock-on missiles
M-M-B = swarm lock-on HE missiles with slight ion effect
The 50% debuff happens to the ratio, so 1:1 effect will be 50% at the T2 lvl, but a 2:1 will be 25% at the T2 lvl.
the draw backs are:
-that T2 can ONLY be made in an advanced factory, at a very high cost
-there is a min block requirement (ball-parking 16) in order to fire
-higher energy cost, it's more energy efficient though
-bulkiness of weapon system, all sub-weapon systems, and all effect systems; meaning all but the largest ships can field this weapon system.

 

[ltmauve]

Agree.
But how would you do the later if you want the prior?

Eh, so yeah, those are two mutally exclusive concepts. Because effeciency is probably a better way to go with engines and that messes up the power balance in favor of more surplus power, I think the energy curve should be made more than proportional. In other words, more ships will be power stable with higher tiers of systems.

 

[TheOmega]

The thing is, this was supposed to be a way to make superweapons.

 

[linwe talion]

In fact, nothing stops you from making superweapons right now. 125k missiles in one bunch for exemple. Isn't it a superweapon? It is, but it is massive and requires utter support with tonns of shields, energy, etc etc.
As for me, just adding levels won's widen the game, won't add any complexity. It will only add playtime to achieve T3 stuff. And, believe me, 90% of players will be equipped with T3.

What could add complexity and real diversity is crafting T2 and T3 for FPs, thus larger societies have higher technology rate (e.g. they are more civilised and advanced ones and having more powah, and more desirable to be shot and ships to be captured).
Or the second way is to make a "stone scissors paper" ship systems (even more than now), so that even a small craft, equipped with proper systems (stone), can overrun an unbalanced Titan (scissors only) or a frigate, which is balanced, but not just equipped with stuff to counter the fighter(scissors and stone).

 

[Planr]

the last thing this game needs is a freaking a tier system. only serves to feed an unwelcoming atmosphere of elitism and unbalanced gameplay.

you've already got your "tiers" enough in the sense that ships of different sizes are more or less powerful than the other.

 

[NeonSturm]

It will only add playtime to achieve T3 stuff. And, believe me, 90% of players will be equipped with T3.

I'd like a system where you build your ship core with T3, but most parts with T2.
Or you build your personal shuttle / Hyperflux racer with T3, but not your whole fleet - that should be fatal to your economy for every killed block.

Expendable stuff like drones or radar outposts (40 blocks early-warning system maybe) could be T1 with a few T2.
Scrap alloys from abandoned stations would be T1.

What could add complexity and real diversity is crafting T2 and T3 for FPs, thus larger societies have higher technology rate (e.g. they are more civilised and advanced ones and having more powah, and more desirable to be shot and ships to be captured).

I imagine a society which is constantly in war not having much high-tech. Maybe the bosses (ships of warlords), but not commonly.
Imagine 1/2 humans killing each other right now - what would happen to our economy? What would happen to sharing of thoughts and technology?
Aggressive society may even die in a nuclear war before exploring spacecraft technology, or be too spread to find sexual partners.
Thus I think it would be a nice addon to the game - maybe not for players, but for the environment, pirates.

Just imagine "abandoned / leftover pirate ships" (which attack everything foreign and slowly self-replicate to original strength per hive) as Tier 1
There are uses @Planr - not only to separate between elite and other players.

 

[srs008]

i don't mind minor grinding, there has to be some work for accomplishment, but grinding for a superweapon? then what, grinding for a super shield? super reactor?
super is bad, once you've "super-ed" up, you can either easily crush everything (funny for a laugh, but boring very quick)
or vs "super-ed" ships...
your talking about creating a literal new class of abuse.
nothing "super" should come at a fixed, one payment cost, otherwise everyone just pays for it... you have to make it specialised, unique, dangerous, and weak. if it decimates a shield, it should be useless on blocks, if it's a literal planet buster, then it should barely effect a shield... or be easily shot down... the power cost should be exponitially worse...
if it's a literal one-shot kill weapon, make it require insane charge, and reset the charge if the ship moves (by it's own thrusters, or push/pull modules)
there has to be a serious drawback to the super, maybe it only fires once every few hours...
maybe it requires so much power that it overloads the ships power, literately crippling the ship as it's reactors cool down.
if it's so powerful as to end a battle, it needs a weakness so incredible that you debate using it... would you risk you super expensive mega-titan for a one shot kill of a faction? with no loot to gain, your literally exchanging your titan for a planets destruction... even a low class cruiser has enough power to really hurt a titan without power, or possible destroy...
is that cost (which in my experience, is many times greater then the credits you can carry)
worth a measly faction planet? or another ship...
of course not. but if everyone could destroy a planet... well we'd have no planets, or stations, since they'd be immediately destroyed.
balance is key.

 

[SapioiT]

There is my idea: Make T2 items available only on PIRATE ships. Like, betwen 0% and 0.5% of the blocks on a pirate ship would be T2, same with the pirate stations. And the difference between T1 and T2 would be the texture and 50% more power. Also, depending on the ship, there should be different T2 blocks. For example, a runner ship with 300 blocks would have three T2 Overdrive Module (with one T1 Overdrive Computer), which would increase the maximum speed with 145% than without Overdrive. Also, there should not be any T2 computers, since they are working on the same architecture... of course, the pirate ship in my example won't go much faster than you with overdrive, but in straight line you will slowly be outrun... so the enemy weapons would slowly kill you, if you don't fight back...