Suggestion: Remove "Recognized By Council" Tag (And Alternatives)

[TartarusMkII]

You keep reiterating the same points about how it is supposed to work and how honest you truly are, because you (understandably, but unfortunately) do not read my responses.

I'll stop pushing, I understand that your way is going to be the right way. But one last time: This is not about how you want to tell us how it's supposed to work. This is about how it is perceived by outsiders. GG WP

 

[SkylordLuke]

You keep reiterating the same points because you (understandably, but unfortunately) do not read my responses.

I'll stop pushing, I understand that your way is going to be the right way. But one last time: This is not about whether you want to tell us how it's supposed to work. This is about how it is perceived by outsiders. GG WP

Well..as you kept repeating same things,its only fair to repeat ours because you keep pushing something that everyone else does not want as we saw in this thread.
But to what outsiders do you refer? You obviously have some insight..,you had public polls? mind sharing that info? or are you acting as judge and jury

EDIT* spelling

 

[TartarusMkII]

Well..as you kept repeating same things,its only fair to repeat ours because you keep pushing something that everyone else does not want as we was in this thread.
But to what outsiders do you refer? You obviously have some insight..mind sharing that info,you had public polls?

There's a concept about polling, you see, that simply goes like this: potential voters who don't /care/, are disillusioned, or have given up, and want to spend their time elsewhere, won't bother participating in the poll.

The majority of voices you'll hear feedback from are either happy, and want to spend their time on the poll, or are so angry at something that they'd send an angry message. There's tons of voices in between that are not heard because those users/voters don't feel like taking the time. I guess at that stage, it's up to those who's job it is to listen and collect feedback to decide whether those opinions in the grey area are worth searching for or not.

 

[SkylordLuke]

There's a concept about polling, you see, that simply goes like this: potential voters who don't /care/, are disillusioned, or have given up, and want to spend their time elsewhere, won't bother participating in the poll.

The majority of voices you'll hear feedback from are either happy, and want to spend their time on the poll, or are so angry at something that they'd send an angry message. There's tons of voices in between that are not heard because those users/voters don't feel like taking the time.

so.. you are saying that you have no idea,you are speculating? ah

 

[Keptick]

Ok, reading further into the thread there seems to be a misunderstanding here TartarusMkII .The tags are just that; tags. They don't bestow any prestige or anything of the like, which is what you're been hinting at. It's mostly just a bookmark for us tbh.

So just to rectify, badges is what we have under our name (look to the left), and trophies are something that give us useless trpphy points. The suggestion tags aren't any of that. And honestly, it's not really our problem if you see them as something they're clearly not...

 

[kiraen]

Wait, you are advocating for the people who are not complaining? Based on the logic that because they are not talking, they must have something to complain about? I am so confuzd....


(also, this is not a democracy. It's more like an oligarchy or theocracy.)

 

[TartarusMkII]

Ok, reading further into the thread there seems to be a misunderstanding here TartarusMkII .The tags are just that; tags. They don't bestow any prestige or anything of the like, which is what you're been hinting at. It's mostly just a bookmark for us tbh.

So just to rectify, badges is what we have under our name (look to the left), and trophies are something that give us useless trpphy points. The suggestion tags aren't any of that. And honestly, it's not really our problem if you see them as something they're clearly not...

Just because you say the tags don't have some effect doesn't mean they don't have an effect. And to the second point, again, just because you say it's true and that's how it's supposed to work doesn't make that the only way it actually works.

And thanks Luke, that's a good way to put it, I'm just talking out of my ass, right? I don't see you participating in this at all, you popped in just to tell me that I'm speculating, good on you, bro.

 

[Keptick]

council that refuses to be re-constructed

What the F*CK are you talking about? We recently completely scrapped our entire suggestion processing process and made a new one to make it better. The very PURPOSE of the first council is to set up a foundation for the next councils to build upon. We're constantly looking for ways to changing the way we work in order to streamline the process.

So please don't call us unflexible, because it's genuinely insulting. Just because your very personal idea of what the council should be isn't popular with us doesn't mean that we're not open to anything...

 

[TartarusMkII]

We're constantly looking for ways to changing the way we work in order to streamline the process...

Okay; I don't really have much to say on that, you're right, and I don't really mean to say that such things don't happen. I'm encouraging the idea that we can always go back to review past decisions and re-tool them if necessary, for the better.

So please don't call us unflexible, because it's genuinely insulting. Just because your very personal idea of what the council should be isn't popular with us doesn't mean that we're not open to anything...

I just don't believe that the Council is doing enough because there are no repercussions for not doing enough. There are so many questions I could ask about issues with the community that are not being addressed or fixed, and I don't know who's job it would be to even address any of this.

With the honest exception of most of the Council and Schine itself (in my opinion), this is one of the most elitist toxic communities I have ever seen in a small independent game. As far as I can see, literally nothing is being done about it, except perhaps talks about how the tutorial could be better for new players somewhere down the line.

I'm going to yield now, I apologize for dragging this out so far. I think that my hopes for this game and community in particular got inflated a bit too much, and I tried to focus too hard on improving it when it is not my place to do so. I just feel like this community and process is too inclusive for power players and insiders, and I just feel like it's not cool, man. At least I don't think so. But I guess realistically it doesn't matter.

When outside players who don't sit on SMD all day interact with the game (other than solo play) through servers and their owners, I guess my last suggestion would be to hopefully reach out to those server owners and ask what problems they're having and make sure that serious issues that effect their patrons gets attention, because those players, I still insist, are probably not going to take the time to come here to make threads about it, they will just leave and do something else.

Thanks for participating, and again, sorry to drag it out.

 

[Master_Artificer]

There's a concept about polling, you see, that simply goes like this: potential voters who don't /care/, are disillusioned, or have given up, and want to spend their time elsewhere, won't bother participating in the poll.

The majority of voices you'll hear feedback from are either happy, and want to spend their time on the poll, or are so angry at something that they'd send an angry message. There's tons of voices in between that are not heard because those users/voters don't feel like taking the time. I guess at that stage, it's up to those who's job it is to listen and collect feedback to decide whether those opinions in the grey area are worth searching for or not.

I think you have it backwards. People, when satisfied with something, generally don't speak up. Oh I had good service at the restraunt, oh the employee was friendly, whatever. Very unlikely to cause people to do something. When people have a bad experience, thats when they write the angry review, thats when the bitching starts.

And trust me, we see that all the time, both here, in other video games, and in the real world.


And for the people who don't care, they probably have just picked up the demo, play it for a week, and move on. Its a cycle, and next will be space engineers, then minecraft, then robocraft, maybe back to starmade, but they just hop from game to game for the new experiance.


What exactly are you trying to get out of this? I am confused. It seems like you have a grudge against the council, but are beating around the bush.

 

[Keptick]

There are so many questions I could ask about issues with the community that are not being addressed or fixed, and I don't know who's job it would be to even address any of this

PM DukeofRealms , he's in charge of the forums. If it's just public relations in general then either PM duke or maybe Criss . The council is there to filter player ideas and feedback and forwards that to the devs, we're mostly there to deal with concerns relating to the game, not with the community itself. Edit: http://starmadedock.net/threads/council-official-q-a-thread.7144/ (thanks kiraen)

With the honest exception of most of the Council and Schine itself (in my opinion), this is one of the most elitist toxic communities I have ever seen in a small independent game. As far as I can see, literally nothing is being done about it, except perhaps talks about how the tutorial could be better for new players somewhere down the line.

Oh my god yes. I completely agree with your statement. Well, then again, it really depends which parts of the community you look at. From my experience, at least on the forums, there's always people willing to help the passing newb if they have questions (just look at threads in general discussion, most of them are related to questions on the game mechanics, and they all have a ton of answers).

Thanks for participating, and again, sorry to drag it out.

No problem. I completely understand the issue you have with the tags. The thing is that I read most of the suggestions, and I don't really want to turn the suggestion forums into an ocean of "read by council" grey tags :p

 

[kiraen]

There are so many questions I could ask about issues with the community that are not being addressed or fixed, and I don't know who's job it would be to even address any of this.

umm....

http://starmadedock.net/threads/council-official-q-a-thread.7144/

As stated in the Council code of conduct, we as a council are responsible for a Q&A thread. Welcome to it.

 

[Master_Artificer]

I just don't believe that the Council is doing enough because there are no repercussions for not doing enough.

Well one time someone did nothing and was kicked out, so their are repercussions, wont mention any names. But you can't dock pay or anything really because it is a volunteer position that requires a huge sacrifice in time.

With the honest exception of most of the Council and Schine itself (in my opinion), this is one of the most elitist toxic communities I have ever seen in a small independent game. As far as I can see, literally nothing is being done about it, except perhaps talks about how the tutorial could be better for new players somewhere down the line.

Depends on the section of the forum you visit. I haven't noticed too much of a problem in the general forums.

I'm going to yield now, I apologize for dragging this out so far. I think that my hopes for this game and community in particular got inflated a bit too much, and I tried to focus too hard on improving it when it is not my place to do so. I just feel like this community and process is too inclusive for power players and insiders, and I just feel like it's not cool, man. At least I don't think so. But I guess realistically it doesn't matter.

I just don't see how removing a feature would make it more inclusive? It does matter, but removing a feature everyone else likes is a bad thing.

When outside players who don't sit on SMD all day interact with the game (other than solo play) through servers and their owners, I guess my last suggestion would be to hopefully reach out to those server owners and ask what problems they're having and make sure that serious issues that effect their patrons gets attention, because those players, I still insist, are probably not going to take the time to come here to make threads about it, they will just leave and do something else.

Thanks for participating, and again, sorry to drag it out.

I mean, we might be able to do that with the new launcher, but otherwise, I don't see how that is possible! Maybe through daily polls, which is actually a really good idea now that I say that, each day is a new poll that lasts one week... yeah...
But people who dont want to participate probably dont care. Or are part of another community and dont wish to come on the SMD.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Let me say a few things here:

1. No single post on the StarmadeDock forums remains unnoticed by me for longer than 36 hours, unless I have internet connection problems. This is because I have subscribed to all forums, so that any new post will cause an alert. As a result, I have 40-50 alerts per day, on busy days sometimes even 100.
2. Are thus all prefixless threads rejected once these 36 hours pass? No, the rejected tag has that purpose. Most of the time I don't instantly apply a tag with a meaning, because people(including me) are prone to making mistakes. And whenever a misjudgement on an idea occurs, there is a chance, that the result is a reputation-nightmare(whether or not that is just is a discussion for another time). So, to reduce the rate of errors, I do not apply a tag, unless I have an up to date citation, or I know the majority councillors agree with my opinion, and Schine did not override it, all of which I usually don't know at the time of reading a thread. The exception being, if I can predict the other councillors' stances with 100% accuracy, which isn't likely for most suggestions, which aren't simple and for convenience without affecting balance.
   
3. Let me quote myself here:
   

   I personally don't set the 'Read by Council' prefix on threads, if I want another councillor to have a look at it without being biased by me referring them to the thread. If this doesn't happen for multiple days, while also nobody else[except for the OP] posts on that thread, it generally means, that interest in that suggestion is low. If that happens, I still won't apply a prefix, so that this suggestion can be quickly scooped up once it is relevant again.( filter for all threads with no prefix )

This is how I am currently operating, and I am operating under the assumption, that the lack of a prefix has no meaning to anyone, besides those, that decided to not apply one(me) for a reason besides lack of time or lazyness.

 

[Blaza612]

Damn, this got derailed hard core.

I've met a lot of councilors, I like them all, they've been kind to me, and encouraging. My sentiments are certainly not that the current council needs to get replaced because they are ineffective or something.

Also, I think that my point on the tags might be getting stretched some. I know it's a waste to repeat myself, but let me just try again to explain:

The fact that threads that are approved of, and get a tag to show they've been approved, means that we can see all the threads and ideas NOT approved. It shows how so many ideas that have not, or will never be seen or talked about by "those who matter."

It's meant to be a way of transparency, I get that, but imagine the perspective of an average user who submits an idea and then can sit there and wait for a tag to appear, or never appear on their thread.

Realistically, not all threads can get viewed or talked about, but again, making that visible sort of shows how many ideas are just not getting looked at at all.

I feel like seeing a tag for "We think this should be talked about more" is asinine because it's basically a confirmation that someone with the power to do so decided that the idea in question is significant, and that "we" don't care about the others for now, as useful as players might think it would be.


And about the council terms, I'm tired of talking about it, this thread is starting to become a circle jerk. IMO, you either have elections, or you do not have elections and don't claim that there are supposed to be elections. There has been ample time between the supposed end of the first term and now to re-construct the council. I feel like at this point, waiting on the new launcher looks like an excuse to keep the current line-up, even if it is not.

Edit addition:

So, check out my point of view on this:

This is the suggestion forums right now, as of my making this post. Let's look at this together. Here, we have Point at Nav idea as bold recognized (brighter is for council for some reason), opinions on why we should be able to have our home base as a mobile ship being 'read' by Schine, an idea on storage contents read by the council, decorative ideas read by Schine, And then this: Brain Storm this: How Crews will affect the game.

This is a great example of what I think is so silly about how this system works. At face value, what this appears like, is that the Point At Nav function has been given affirmative merit (IMO it should, it's a good idea), but the entire 140 reply thread on Crews is marked only a Brainstorm, as if it's not yet significant enough to be given some kind of merit badge. Does that mean that the 17 reply thread of Point At Nav is solid and needs no more discussion, where as the 140 reply thread on crew members is still insufficient???

I already know the answer to that question, again, this isn't about right or wrong, it's about how this system appears to the average player. I hope maybe breaking it down like that might help show what it is that I'm saying, here.

Haven't read everything past the quoted post due to it being a circle-jerk.

You seem to have the racism effect, I'll explain that first.

Someone says racist thing about black people, black guy is nearby, but doesn't give a shit. White guy hears it, and gives the most shits saying that it's offensive. The problem here, is that the reason it's offensive is because black people find it offensive (assumingly) however in practice, they don't, thus no longer making it offensive and making the white guy look like an ass.

You're similar in this situation. You see suggestions with fancy tag, and assume that those without the tags would get offended/hurt by not having them, when in reality, they don't care. Therefore, your fighting a fight that doesn't exist and it's making you look like an asshole/moron.

And it brings me right back around to what I said what the moderation was doing, except this applies to a much grander scale. People are too easily offended, and people are too easily pushed into catering for every specific person, whether it's for "triggers", racist jokes or just saying a word that someone doesn't like, we become to sensitive and start being too careful. Who gives a fuck if people who haven't got the badge get offended? Seriously, if they're going to have a cry about not having their suggestion go to Schine immediately, then maybe they should reconsider their life choices.
[DOUBLEPOST=1447996453,1447996179][/DOUBLEPOST]

And it brings me right back around to what I said what the moderation was doing, except this applies to a much grander scale. People are too easily offended, and people are too easily pushed into catering for every specific person, whether it's for "triggers", racist jokes or just saying a word that someone doesn't like, we become to sensitive and start being too careful. Who gives a fuck if people who haven't got the badge get offended? Seriously, if they're going to have a cry about not having their suggestion go to Schine immediately, then maybe they should reconsider their life choices.

You know what, I'm not going to sugar-coat it, this whole suggestion is AIDs and is destroying my brain with the amount of circle-jerkiness and stupidity/over sensitivity it has. Fucking deal with people not having fancy badges, why should Schine/Council cater to everyone specifically, and if I get a warning point for this, then that simply reinforces my point. Good day!

 

[Blaza612]

AHA! I did get a warning point! And the best part, they removed the "fuck you" part! This is what I mean, arguments can not get a little bit heated and we cannot express our anger in any way other than, "Sir, I am angry, grr?" and shows how far the moderation has come. I'm aware that I was in violation of a rule and the "fuck you" part being the only bit that was censored is kind of a good thing, because maybe they realised it, and maybe, just maybe, with a little more progress, they'll accept insults/proper expressions of anger where they're due...

 

[TartarusMkII]

Just wanted to say, I read the responses, and I thank y'all for taking the time to do so.

 

[Keptick]

AHA! I did get a warning point! And the best part, they removed the "fuck you" part! This is what I mean, arguments can not get a little bit heated and we cannot express our anger in any way other than, "Sir, I am angry, grr?" and shows how far the moderation has come. I'm aware that I was in violation of a rule and the "fuck you" part being the only bit that was censored is kind of a good thing, because maybe they realised it, and maybe, just maybe, with a little more progress, they'll accept insults/proper expressions of anger where they're due...

I agree with you on the first part.

But uh... there's a difference between a heated discussion and outright insults like "fuck you". The "fuck you" brings absolutely nothing constructive to the table, and just increases the toxicity of a doscussion. The way I see it, insults are useless and just show that the people using them have no valid argument.

 

[Blaza612]

I agree with you on the first part.

But uh... there's a difference between a heated discussion and outright insults like "fuck you". The "fuck you" brings absolutely nothing constructive to the table, and just increases the toxicity of a doscussion. The way I see it, insults are useless and just show that the people using them have no valid argument.

That was kind of the point of me saying that, expect I'm really bad at it when it comes to this sort of stuff. :P

What I was trying to say is that the admin did right in only censoring the "fuck you" part for reasons you've stated, rather than the entire post of which the purpose was to be toxic, in spite of the level of moderation (the previous post gives it away). I might've made it seem that I was against him censoring the "fuck you" part but that's simply due to me being bad at talking on a particular day. :p