Suggestion: Remove "Recognized By Council" Tag (And Alternatives)

[Master_Artificer]

I honestly believe that 99% of the whole community has no problem with the current system. As far as I know, you seem to be the only individual to have brought this up.

While it is in the council interest to the community, they cannot cater to EVERYONE, because ideas conflict interest. Some people want more of X, some people want less of X, it is up to the council to decide if more/less of X is good for the game, and community.
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Man, I feel like the last thing we need from a council that refuses to be re-constructed is to put them on a pedestal along with the developers of the game. Let's please not do this.

I am not sure what you are going for, but could you please not post inflammatory statements like this. Their are tens of ways you could of worded it better, but it seems that you are tying to draw out a knee jerk reaction. It has been said many times that the next elections are waiting on the launcher, so don't worry. The cards will be shuffled eventually, but right now the dealer is on break.

 

[TartarusMkII]

It has been said many times that the next elections are waiting on the launcher, so don't worry. The cards will be shuffled eventually, but right now the dealer is on break.

I don't think that the community representatives should depend on a mechanical feature of the game, and "the dealer is on break" doesn't sound very legit to me. There's nothing knee-jerk about this.

 

[Master_Artificer]

I don't think that the community representatives should depend on a mechanical feature of the game, and "the dealer is on break" doesn't sound very legit to me. There's nothing knee-jerk about this.

No I was saying the way you worded it seemed to try to draw out knee jerk reaction posts. But what your saying is that the current system of tags is not fair to everybody? I feel that the current system is fair. Honestly, some suggestions are better than others, and deserve recognition beyond the standard suggestion. Other-times suggestions are subpar or already planned features rolling out (or features that already exist in game) and usually sinks off the page. I have yet to get a suggestion "recognized by council" but I know if I try harder and put more thought into suggestions, eventually I might get rewarded by having a well thought out and ingenious feature added to the game.

Also the dealer on break thing was just an analogy to compliment the "cards will be shuffled" metaphor. The launcher web integration is still having issues or something like that, and they are trying to not push out a buggy product.

Also, this way, everybody who plays starmade will know about the elections and be able to vote, preventing issues like last time of people complaining that 3 weeks wasn't enough time and they didn't know about the vote. Honestly, you can converse with any of them like a normal player, nothing really special about them (especially that keptkek guy, what a jerk :p) except some have contributed a lot of things to the community, like Luke and all of those stations. I don't care if they are a council member, I (and probably most of the community) care about what they do. If they do nothing, respect drops pretty fast.

 

[kiraen]

Just two quick correction.
Schine decides what is good for the game. Not the councilors.
Schine is the one holding up the elections. Not the councilors.

The council just channels information, they have no real power over development.

 

[TartarusMkII]

MA, I was saying earlier that my stance on this is not a 'right vs wrong' argument. It's how the system is perceived by the players of SM and the community members who frequent the SMD. Right or wrong, the perception still stands, and you might be basing your generalization on the most vocal of the people you come across.

The fact is, most of the time someone who is unhappy with a situation won't speak out against it, they will simply leave. And I think that is very much a possibility here on this issue. I don't believe there'd be many people who would take the time to make a thread or post saying "this looks odd to me." They'd just pack up and go find a better use of their time.

So to that, I say the tags don't look right to me. I don't think that to an outsider, they make a lot of sense. Again, to an outsider, why would some ideas get the merit of the tag and not others? (My suggestion here, if you haven't noticed, is that no ideas should have a merit tag.)

And about the elections, there is no doubt in my mind that doing elections through the launcher will be far more efficient than what we have now. However, most resources that the average player has, still says that the council was supposed to be re-elected months ago.

So again, to an outsider, what is this supposed to LOOK like?? It looks dysfunctional, and how can you expect someone not in the know to trust the system we have here, knowing that the info on something sold as fair and balanced (why else would we need elections) isn't even enforced properly???

Even your mention of Keptick, the need to mention his name, proves to me that you don't understand the outsider's perspective on this issue.

 

[Jumper11550]

So to that, I say the tags don't look right to me. I don't think that to an outsider, they make a lot of sense. Again, to an outsider, why would some ideas get the merit of the tag and not others? (My suggestion here, if you haven't noticed, is that no ideas should have a merit tag.)

And about the elections, there is no doubt in my mind that doing elections through the launcher will be far more efficient than what we have now. However, most resources that the average player has, still says that the council was supposed to be re-elected months ago.

So again, to an outsider, what is this supposed to LOOK like?? It looks dysfunctional, and how can you expect someone not in the know to trust the system we have here, knowing that the info on something sold as fair and balanced (why else would we need elections) isn't even enforced properly???

Even your mention of Keptick, the need to mention his name, proves to me that you don't understand the outsider's perspective on this issue.

keeping in mind the council has no say over what if any of the stuff they flag actually moves into the game, the devs still retain full control over all desicions.

Your point is we should remove a system that helps filter clutter and brings good forum content posted by the exisiting community to the devs attention because someone from outside the community *might* not understand that's how things work here?

Edit: I feel the need to clarify your position because flagging good content for the devs while sifting out the stuff that's either repeats or suggestions for something already known to be off the books is the entire point of having the council. If they can't flag threads then why have the council at all? In effect your suggestion, as I understand it, is saying we shouldn't have a council at all. Which leaves the good folks working hard at schine to either ignore large parts of what gets posted or take time away from actually working on the game to troll the forums.

Edit 2: by troll I mean wander through, not create havoc/flamewars

 

[Blaza612]

I haven't read whole thread, I nearly had a brain aneurysm because of it all D:

But seriously what is actually the problem here? The council was elected via the community in order to act as the flood gate of suggestions for Schine, and provide them with the best ones that:
A) Are new/unique
B) Don't break the game/go against what it's ideals
C) Are do-able within the engine

The badges are simply a means of communicating to the person who made the suggestion whether their suggestion is being considered or not, because people would like closure on the ideas that they came up with. They're not a bloody award or something, they're simply an extremely easy/handy form of communication. Did you get jelly of someone getting recognized yet you didn't or something, because that's the only possible way I can see someone having a problem with the council (unless they're Tomino :p).

 

[Master_Artificer]

MA, I was saying earlier that my stance on this is not a 'right vs wrong' argument. It's how the system is perceived by the players of SM and the community members who frequent the SMD. Right or wrong, the perception still stands, and you might be basing your generalization on the most vocal of the people you come across.

The fact is, most of the time someone who is unhappy with a situation won't speak out against it, they will simply leave. And I think that is very much a possibility here on this issue. I don't believe there'd be many people who would take the time to make a thread or post saying "this looks odd to me." They'd just pack up and go find a better use of their time.

So to that, I say the tags don't look right to me. I don't think that to an outsider, they make a lot of sense. Again, to an outsider, why would some ideas get the merit of the tag and not others? (My suggestion here, if you haven't noticed, is that no ideas should have a merit tag.)

And about the elections, there is no doubt in my mind that doing elections through the launcher will be far more efficient than what we have now. However, most resources that the average player has, still says that the council was supposed to be re-elected months ago.

So again, to an outsider, what is this supposed to LOOK like?? It looks dysfunctional, and how can you expect someone not in the know to trust the system we have here, knowing that the info on something sold as fair and balanced (why else would we need elections) isn't even enforced properly???

Even your mention of Keptick, the need to mention his name, proves to me that you don't understand the outsider's perspective on this issue.

Well yeah it is dysfunctional. That pretty much defined the first half of the councils sentences. One of their members explosively dropped out and the whole system was nearly scuttled. This is the very first term of a system for an alpha game. Maybe it is a fault for being tolerant, but I am fine with shine choosing to postpone the elections till the system is ready. If they botch the election, will it look worse for them in the long run rather than postponing it till they think they can have a handle on things? Personally, I think it will, and cause far more damage in the player base rather than postponing it some months.
Besides, the councilors are still in power during the time of the elections, and pass the baton once the election results are in and the new candidates have been briefed and are ready to go, kinda like how the US presidency works.

Those same resources the average player has also says the new council will be elected when the new system is ready, and thank you for your patience. I wouldn't fret about it too much.

I don't think MOST players would pack up and leave. If they actually enjoyed the game, people will tend to stick around and be vocal about it. You disagreed with how things are progressing, and you stuck around to try to make changes instead of leaving. That is a good thing though, it shows the amount of care and/or passion people have for this little game called starmade. We do need to be better at not shooting peoples ideas down and talking through it with them through, with either one party or both parties stepping away having learned something or changed an opinion with helpfulness.

Often times I don't even venture onto the suggestions forums, but every day their are hundreds of posts made by players like you that have either a cool idea, or a complaint that they would like to change. Sometimes, I admit, things get lost in the hustle and bustle of the postings.

Keptick? I know him through the StarMadeDock chat. I don't even know half the councilors names, and even more about what they do. I only know luke from his old station threads, keptick because he bothers a few people in my faction sometimes, and... Comr4de is a counciler still I think. Criss is a super councilor manager and does EVE stuff.... thats all I got. Oh, Megacrafter is a smart guy that I used to see in chat a lot, but I don't see him their anymore. (sorry other people who I didn't mention. I simply don't cross paths with you enough to care about what you do.) Hmm, maybe I do know half of the names... you might have a point, I am not viewing this from an outsiders perspective.


And in terms of the tags, they should stay. Occasionally they help bring attention to ideas that are quite good and deserve such attention, and I can also use them to assist in skimming the forums to see what is upcoming in the game. I feel like removing them would be a bigger detriment than keeping them in place.
While each suggestion might hold equal merit, unfortunately some suggestions are better than others and rise to the top and receive bias amounts of attention. If reading over a suggestion that I don't like, I usually post some things that I have disagreements with, outline them clearly, and defend my points unless I have a change of mind upon reading more/listening to what people say. Previously, even before the tag system, we still had mega threads of 40-100+ pages that existed. People were naturally drawn to click-bait thread titles and a good discussion. Different people to different topics.
The system can be perceived differently by different people, but so far it has been perceived positively.
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I haven't read whole thread, I nearly had a brain aneurysm because of it all D:

But seriously what is actually the problem here? The council was elected via the community in order to act as the flood gate of suggestions for Schine, and provide them with the best ones that:
A) Are new/unique
B) Don't break the game/go against what it's ideals
C) Are do-able within the engine

The badges are simply a means of communicating to the person who made the suggestion whether their suggestion is being considered or not, because people would like closure on the ideas that they came up with. They're not a bloody award or something, they're simply an extremely easy/handy form of communication. Did you get jelly of someone getting recognized yet you didn't or something, because that's the only possible way I can see someone having a problem with the council (unless they're Tomino :p).

I don't think it is about how the council operates, or who is on the council. Also those first and last sentences bro, they are just antagonizing and are more likely to make the person leave than accomplish anything productive.
Nevermind, proceed.

 

[Blaza612]

no go

Faces = VERY obvious way of saying that something is a joke

Jokes =/= personal attack/insult

First joke, a hyperbole of the confusion I was experiencing, and using the source as a means to create such hyperbole.

Second joke, was based around the events of Tomino being expelled (don't know actual word for it) from the council, and used that event to create humour. Similar to 9/11 jokes or Hitler jokes.

Jokes are not meant for actual insults, and if taken with offense = oversensitive which the world has pretty much become. While it is normal for someone to feel slightly bad after being used for a joke, but that's it. Me using them as a joke is in no way me insulting them (okay, maybe the first one was a bit offensive, but I was extremely confused) and simply me using humour where the opportunity of humour resides. If anyone was properly offended, then calm your tits. :p

 

[Master_Artificer]

Faces = VERY obvious way of saying that something is a joke

Jokes =/= personal attack/insult

First joke, a hyperbole of the confusion I was experiencing, and using the source as a means to create such hyperbole.

Second joke, was based around the events of Tomino being expelled (don't know actual word for it) from the council, and used that event to create humour. Similar to 9/11 jokes or Hitler jokes.

Jokes are not meant for actual insults, and if taken with offense = oversensitive which the world has pretty much become. While it is normal for someone to feel slightly bad after being used for a joke, but that's it. Me using them as a joke is in no way me insulting them (okay, maybe the first one was a bit offensive, but I was extremely confused) and simply me using humour where the opportunity of humour resides. If anyone was properly offended, then calm your tits. :p

Well touche, I just felt that it might have been in poor taste.
I apologize for calling you out then, sorry.

 

[Blaza612]

I am not sure what you are going for, but could you please not post inflammatory statements like this. Their are tens of ways you could of worded it better, but it seems that you are tying to draw out a knee jerk reaction. It has been said many times that the next elections are waiting on the launcher, so don't worry. The cards will be shuffled eventually, but right now the dealer is on break.

EDIT: I don't see him using "inflammatory statements" anywhere in his post, he was quite simply criticizing the council on a bit of mis-information while unknowingly using said mis-information, and this actually makes me worried as to where the moderation and "peace keeping" of the SMD has lead to, and where it'll go. :/

 

[Master_Artificer]

EDIT: I don't see him using "inflammatory statements" anywhere in his post, he was quite simply criticizing the council on a bit of mis-information while unknowingly using said mis-information, and this actually makes me worried as to where the moderation and "peace keeping" of the SMD has lead to, and where it'll go. :/

If we don't allow people to spread misinformation that will make them look stupid in the long run (cough, docked reactors do work, cough) (not naming names, is also a joke), then how will we ever repeal the affordable care act and roll back advances in sciences, education, and other core values we used to hold dear? If we can't spread misinformation and lies at the expense of our long term everything, than is that truly freedom? Is that truly an America that we can live in and prosper?

(/satire, and the answer is very much yes)

 

[Blaza612]

If we don't allow people to spread misinformation that will make them look stupid in the long run (cough, docked reactors do work, cough) (not naming names, is also a joke), then how will we ever repeal the affordable care act and roll back advances in sciences, education, and other core values we used to hold dear? If we can't spread misinformation and lies at the expense of our long term everything, than is that truly freedom? Is that truly an America that we can live in and prosper?

(/satire, and the answer is very much yes)

Erm, lol?

I wasn't criticizing you correcting him, I was criticizing a very specific part,

but could you please not post inflammatory statements like this. Their are tens of ways you could of worded it better, but it seems that you are tying to draw out a knee jerk reaction

You essentially called him a prick without him being a prick. :p

 

[Comr4de]

Is this seriously becoming another "council is evul illuminati" thread?

 

[Nauvran]

Is this seriously becoming another "council is evul illuminati" thread?

I thought it was already confirmed that you guys were the root of all evil?

 

[TartarusMkII]

Damn, this got derailed hard core.

I've met a lot of councilors, I like them all, they've been kind to me, and encouraging. My sentiments are certainly not that the current council needs to get replaced because they are ineffective or something.

Also, I think that my point on the tags might be getting stretched some. I know it's a waste to repeat myself, but let me just try again to explain:

The fact that threads that are approved of, and get a tag to show they've been approved, means that we can see all the threads and ideas NOT approved. It shows how so many ideas that have not, or will never be seen or talked about by "those who matter."

It's meant to be a way of transparency, I get that, but imagine the perspective of an average user who submits an idea and then can sit there and wait for a tag to appear, or never appear on their thread.

Realistically, not all threads can get viewed or talked about, but again, making that visible sort of shows how many ideas are just not getting looked at at all.

I feel like seeing a tag for "We think this should be talked about more" is asinine because it's basically a confirmation that someone with the power to do so decided that the idea in question is significant, and that "we" don't care about the others for now, as useful as players might think it would be.


And about the council terms, I'm tired of talking about it, this thread is starting to become a circle jerk. IMO, you either have elections, or you do not have elections and don't claim that there are supposed to be elections. There has been ample time between the supposed end of the first term and now to re-construct the council. I feel like at this point, waiting on the new launcher looks like an excuse to keep the current line-up, even if it is not.

Edit addition:

So, check out my point of view on this:

This is the suggestion forums right now, as of my making this post. Let's look at this together. Here, we have Point at Nav idea as bold recognized (brighter is for council for some reason), opinions on why we should be able to have our home base as a mobile ship being 'read' by Schine, an idea on storage contents read by the council, decorative ideas read by Schine, And then this: Brain Storm this: How Crews will affect the game.

This is a great example of what I think is so silly about how this system works. At face value, what this appears like, is that the Point At Nav function has been given affirmative merit (IMO it should, it's a good idea), but the entire 140 reply thread on Crews is marked only a Brainstorm, as if it's not yet significant enough to be given some kind of merit badge. Does that mean that the 17 reply thread of Point At Nav is solid and needs no more discussion, where as the 140 reply thread on crew members is still insufficient???

I already know the answer to that question, again, this isn't about right or wrong, it's about how this system appears to the average player. I hope maybe breaking it down like that might help show what it is that I'm saying, here.

 

[Comr4de]

The fact that threads that are approved of, and get a tag to show they've been approved, means that we can see all the threads and ideas NOT approved. It shows how so many ideas that have not, or will never be seen or talked about by "those who matter."

It's meant to be a way of transparency, I get that, but imagine the perspective of an average user who submits an idea and then can sit there and wait for a tag to appear, or never appear on their thread.

Realistically, not all threads can get viewed or talked about, but again, making that visible sort of shows how many ideas are just not getting looked at at all.

I feel like seeing a tag for "We think this should be talked about more" is asinine because it's basically a confirmation that someone with the power to do so decided that the idea in question is significant, and that "we" don't care about the others for now, as useful as players might think it would be.

I see where you're coming from on this but the tags aren't solely for the benefit of the posters so much as they are used by the council to classify/highlight threads for our corporate overlords. It simply isn't feasible to expect the council to read and respond to every thread posted in suggestions. I would go into detail and provide examples but I'm not out to hurt feelings today.

edit: plus there IS a rejected label but we never use it

There has been ample time between the supposed end of the first term and now to re-construct the council. I feel like at this point, waiting on the new launcher looks like an excuse to keep the current line-up, even if it is not.

This isn't us, I swear. I ask twice a month when the new elections are happening, just ask keptick

 

[TartarusMkII]

I updated the above post with a bigger addition, please check it out if you haven't already.

Comr4de, I totally understand what you mean about how the council makes use of the tags, but what my point is that you guys can't forget that these tags are seen externally as well as internally. What I'm talking about is how odd it looks to people who are not insiders.

I am not implying that anyone needs to read every post, that's obvious, man. But what I am saying is that the tags make it way too painfully obvious how few ideas are actually getting noted or even glanced over. At least, that is how it makes it appear.

I don't know what the terms are of being on the council, or if there's anything 'written' or legal involved, but I do sort of feel like the councilors could certainly act on their own to correct the issue with the election, but I realize that's far easier said than done. My urgency on it isn't really directed at you guys, I hope I can make that more clear >_<.

 

[Keptick]

I haven't read the while thread so I apologize if this has been said already, but don't confuse "recognized by council" and "recognized". They mean two very different things. "Recognized by council" means that the council likes the idea and that the idea has been forwarded to Schine. "Recognized" means that the devs read the thread and recognized the idea.

I already considered the idea of "If there's no tag it means it was ignored" argument (before this thread was made). However, I'd like to assure that it's simply not the case. Truth be told we don't always add tags to the suggestions we read and/or approve of. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we don't communicate them to the devs. I'd say that most of the time suggestions communicated to the devs don't have the tags at all. Either because only one councillor read it or we just forgot to add the tag (yes, it happens).

Perhaps we should clarify how we, as a council, review suggestions and communicate them to the devs (honestly it's very straightforward). Basically more transparency on what it is we do would disolve any misconceptions that some people might rightfully have on what it is the council does. I'll talk about it with the other councillors.

Edit: Just to make it clear, we never outright reject suggestions (the reject tag) unless it's like the 38292th thread on a subject that's been confirmed rejected by the devs. You may not agree with the council having the power to filter suggestions, but the devs just don't have the time to go through all the suggestions themselves whether you like it or not. In fact, before the council was put in place you'd rarely see any dev activity in the suggestion forum. Also, the reason there's multiple councillors is to ensure that no personal bias influences the type of suggestions that make it to the devs. And trust me, we don't always agree on everything.

 

[SkylordLuke]

I felt dizzy reading all of this here (because its long)
and note that I really value your opinion on this Tartarus.
But I see no need to remove these tags because:
1. So far ..no one here has problems with them ,except you. so if we love democracy..
2. It helps us (councilors) keep up with what we already read,because I already spend a lot of time reading them,I dont wanna spend reading them twice or more times hahaha. Really helps us keeping things organized