Station Fleets

    Joined
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages
    1,696
    Reaction score
    1,199
    • Thinking Positive
    • Likeable
    Suggestion: option to 'fleet' any station as a one-entity fleet, and order that fleet to patrol a specified radius with specified numbers of selected ship types.

    Patrol action would take the form of the 'fleet' spawning ships per user specifications, drawing resources from on-site storage. Stations should require a suitable shipyard to function in this way. NPC factions can do this, player factions should be able to use the same features.

    If the patrol is destroyed, the station will attempt to replenish if supplies suffice.

    Ideally this would be in addition to a standard patrol function that would allow players to simply set a fleet of ships on patrol or allow a carrier to spawn patrol fighters, not "instead of" it.

    Benefit: this would allow a degree of area control not currently possible as well as removing a massive amount of the tedium involved in spawning and assigning ships to do so over an extended period of time. It would also harden stations against attack and act as deterrent since raiders would not know the strength of defensive patrols without investing time to observe and investigate first.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Mar 10, 2016
    Messages
    561
    Reaction score
    1,670
    • Likeable Gold
    • Community Content - Silver 2
    • Thinking Positive
    Suggestion: option to 'fleet' any station as a one-entity fleet, and order that fleet to patrol a specified radius with specified numbers of selected ship types.

    Very good suggestion. In fact, such a new feature seems to have become a must-have recently.

    Since the *under-fire shield recharge rate* was brought down to zero (just to be sure, is that still the case?) and thus even a persistent fleet of weak little pirate Isanths can damage our stations, no matter how much we invest into shield capacity, we probably should have some other active defense options besides offensive turrets.

    I started construction on a station not long ago and I had a similar idea about having a fleet at / around the structure. The way I initially wanted to go about it was having a nice big flagship carrying a host of decent fleeted fighters, which would have been just docked to the station in times of peace, and deployed manually upon an attack. Then the pilot of the carrier flagship would release the fighters and give fleet commands from aboard.

    But obviously, a new feature of being able to 1) do this from within the station, 2) with the freedom to spawn defense craft that don't actually take up hangar space within the station, and 3) also having an option to automatize this, so it would work in predefined ways even while the player isn't around, that would be much more convenient and safe.

    As for now, what about the possibility of having a set of AI defense craft docked to stations and automatically launched (via shoot-out rails) when a decrease in shield capacity is sensed (via sensor blocks)? Would that work?
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages
    1,696
    Reaction score
    1,199
    • Thinking Positive
    • Likeable
    As for now, what about the possibility of having a set of AI defense craft docked to stations and automatically launched (via shoot-out rails) when a decrease in shield capacity is sensed (via sensor blocks)? Would that work?
    I think that my idea should be in addition to a normal fleet patrol function, which should be able to function equally while docked or adrift, so yeah - your idea is great.

    I think a standard patrol feature is so necessary and simple as to be almost certain to happen already, but I hit on this notion after speculating about "trade fleets" and realized that if/once the devs began permitting stations to do things automatically - the way fleets do - a whole host of strategic options begins to unfurl centered around stations. Options that would simplify gameplay in some ways (easy fleet creation and deployment, easy automated trade cycles, a foundation point for automated mining & so on) while adding depth and complexity to planning.

    An example of another option fleeting stations presents is having it auto-spawn mining ships to mine asteroids within a set area and even focus on specific ores. We have a (currently non-functional, but certain to be fixed in time) feature to set fleets to mine... but NPC factions mine automatically, why can't players enjoy the same reduction in tedium and manual command so long as they use a station BP designed with the capacity in mind? But an automated mining operation would require a base of operations, otherwise where does the mineral product go. Fleet station! Then your automated factories refine and produce whichever product lines you've set up and immediately put it up for sale locally and/or on the trade network. Viola - passive income that isn't arbitrary and that can be actively disrupted by determined enemies (but of course your station can simply respawn new miners from available resources when needed as well).
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages
    666
    Reaction score
    928
    I like this. It is basically what pirate bases have been doing anyway for years.

    One addition to this idea is to use the spawn feature instead of the actual shipyard anchor when creating ships. It would still limit ship sizes to the shipyard's abilities, but this is more an idea to prevent base humping.

    This would also make for a neat "carrier" function if shipyards (or maybe a limited function drone factory) got added to ships as well. Right now, RP carriers are way underpowered because of the actual internal volume or deck space you need to sacrifice, but if a single 50x50x30m hanger could output 4-5 reinforcement fighters during the course of a fight... then we'd start to see some serious ship/fleet diversity.

    [edit] Another idea for drone factories is to despawn "docking" drones back into cargo. This way, we can circumvent problematic AI docking all together and just pop them in and out of existence within a bubble range of the hanger. A limit of this hanger vs a shipyard would be that the ship it makes would be "bound" to the hanger to prevent spamming drones. IE: you can launch 1 drone per hanger, but as they overheat or "redock", you can assemble a new one.

    A similar limit should probably be applied to mine layers BTW.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages
    1,696
    Reaction score
    1,199
    • Thinking Positive
    • Likeable
    We don't automatically know
    One addition to this idea is to use the spawn feature instead of the actual shipyard anchor when creating ships. It would still limit ship sizes to the shipyard's abilities, but this is more an idea to prevent base humping.
    Excellent point - thank you! In my head I was definitely not thinking of having the ships actually built in the shipyard but rather exactly as you say - spawned in nearby under a limit created by the shipyard capacity.

    [edit] Another idea for drone factories is to despawn "docking" drones back into cargo. This way, we can circumvent problematic AI docking all together and just pop them in and out of existence within a bubble range of the hanger. A limit of this hanger vs a shipyard would be that the ship it makes would be "bound" to the hanger to prevent spamming drones. IE: you can launch 1 drone per hanger, but as they overheat or "redock", you can assemble a new one.
    I hadn't thought of this, but it would probably be almost necessary for any fleet spawning feature. First, to reduce overall server calculations it would definitely be best for spawned fleets to despawn back into cargo between patrols, mining runs, trade runs, or other missions. This avoids every player station being surrounded by a debris field of periodically active ships. Second, while it would probably be possible to devise a complex means of repairing damaged ships using logicked healing turrets or something, this is far more straightforward. Ships despawning may have a few dings and scratches, but coming back out they would be "repaired."



    This would also make for a neat "carrier" function if shipyards (or maybe a limited function drone factory) got added to ships as well. Right now, RP carriers are way underpowered because of the actual internal volume or deck space you need to sacrifice, but if a single 50x50x30m hanger could output 4-5 reinforcement fighters during the course of a fight... then we'd start to see some serious ship/fleet diversity.
    A mobile patrol base - totally. Then you could send an escorted carrier fleet to set up a patrol sphere near an enemy mining zone to disrupt their income or use it to lay partial siege to their base from beyond range of base turrets. Player carriers could become a real serious thing if they could constantly resupply fighters based on cargo, and carry a proper compliment without being so huge they lag the server. During long engagements between multiplayer factions one player could literally break away, return to base for a fast freighter full of components, jump/warp them back out to the front, and dock to the carrier for unrep (underway replenishment). If implemented, it would make sense for the carrier to also be primary healer as well, since it would already have a large hold full of materials to astrotech factionmates, allies, friendly drones, and outposts. I like it. A lot.

    I'd like to see it as a separate suggestion. They are related - the same core code objects would be used to accomplish both of these ideas, but the gameplay implications are different.

    I'm looking right now specifically at our poor, neglected stations and what a few easy (using 90% extant functions) additional features for them could add to gameplay.

    Spawning fleets would be a strong factor in making stations more robust at repelling attacks. Imagine attacking a mining base and suddenly its patrol fleet is called back from the nearby belt and you have a player-designed destroyer and several frigates all over you in addition to the base guns. Could be painful; would definitely catch new, would-be pirates and trolls by surprise the first time and make everyone think twice about station attacks against offline opponents because a very small station could be basing an absolutely huge patrol fleet ("hey - let's take over this mineral-rich system. blast the outpost!" ...two, 500+ meter, heavily turreted cruisers appear).

    Of course this particular aspect would be even better if multiple stations could be grouped into "super-fleets" to share patrol assets so that A) you don't need to spend a fortune to defend every pathetic little station and B) losing that pathetic little station doesn't mean losing a massive stockpile of resources allocated to spawning patrols... hmmm... how to dovetail the two functions... time for more creative thinking...
     
    • Like
    Reactions: petlahk
    Joined
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages
    666
    Reaction score
    928
    Of course this particular aspect would be even better if multiple stations could be grouped into "super-fleets" to share patrol assets so that A) you don't need to spend a fortune to defend every pathetic little station and B) losing that pathetic little station doesn't mean losing a massive stockpile of resources allocated to spawning patrols... hmmm... how to dovetail the two functions... time for more creative thinking...
    The trick is to build the station to be appropriately strong to the patrol. If the base is small enough for most cruisers to one-shot, no need to give it a drone factory, just assign an expendable drone fleet big enough to punish smaller pirates, and not bankrupt you smashing against a full scale invasion force. If you want a base that can pump out wave after wave of reinforcements, it needs to be a proper battlestation that can tank while the drones do their work. This would pair very well with suggestions I've seen to add station chambers to improve their defense that ships dont get access to: like multiplying shields and armor 5 fold or something like that.
     
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages
    1,696
    Reaction score
    1,199
    • Thinking Positive
    • Likeable
    add station chambers to improve their defense that ships dont get access to: like multiplying shields and armor 5 fold or something like that.
    Yeah - this has been long needed. Super-buff chambers for stations (defense, offense, and system mining, scan range) + ship spawning + letting stations inhibit jumping + using the functions that make astrotech work to allow stations to passively repair themselves over time would go lightyears towards making non-invincible stations a real, viable thing players could build and know that while they might occasionally lose a station, the attacker will pay dearly for it.
     
    Joined
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages
    666
    Reaction score
    928
    The FCM Treadaway was actually a good example of how hard a battlestation should be to kill, it could cream most capitol ships 1v1 and required coordinated attacks by multiple dark-side battleships to take down. However, they were 2-million mass each so when the dark adapted to bring overwhelming force against them, they could take them out, 1-by-1. I think the end goal should be to make a 250-500k base that lethal so that a "reasonably" priced base could halt most attacks and over-built bases like the Treadaway would become more-or-less unkillable. (though ultimately not worth while since they would cost more than the value of their star system to make.)
     
    Joined
    Mar 10, 2016
    Messages
    561
    Reaction score
    1,670
    • Likeable Gold
    • Community Content - Silver 2
    • Thinking Positive
    An example of another option fleeting stations presents is having it auto-spawn mining ships to mine asteroids within a set area and even focus on specific ores. We have a (currently non-functional, but certain to be fixed in time) feature to set fleets to mine... but NPC factions mine automatically, why can't players enjoy the same reduction in tedium and manual command so long as they use a station BP designed with the capacity in mind? But an automated mining operation would require a base of operations, otherwise where does the mineral product go. Fleet station! Then your automated factories refine and produce whichever product lines you've set up and immediately put it up for sale locally and/or on the trade network. Viola - passive income that isn't arbitrary and that can be actively disrupted by determined enemies (but of course your station can simply respawn new miners from available resources when needed as well).

    These are really promising ideas. Building, regularly visiting and maintaining non-homebase stations should have been incentivized since long ago, and what you described would be a great solution for that.

    It has been stated that with the forthcoming Universe update, long-distance dynamics are intended to be encouraged, and things like automated stations and having really good reasons to venture out and set up mining base stations in the asteroid belts of distant systems sound like they could become a significant part of that much-needed encouragement.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jul 30, 2013
    Messages
    195
    Reaction score
    84
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    It'd also really contribute to the 4x elements of the game. Possibly a universe update feature?

    I view space stations as what *should be* area of denial hardpoints for locking down parts of sectors. But that isn't entirely possible without this feature.

    With this feature it becomes necessary to try to take out the station that controls one or two fleets in order to truly take the sector, or part of the sector. As it stands you just kinda... nimbly-bimbly in there, set up a base then either take the sector with more FP, or just nuke the station. Which is hardly a defensive hardpoint.
    [doublepost=1525374589,1525373223][/doublepost]So. I went back through and read all the discussion. Two things.

    This would also make for a neat "carrier" function if shipyards (or maybe a limited function drone factory) got added to ships as well. Right now, RP carriers are way underpowered because of the actual internal volume or deck space you need to sacrifice, but if a single 50x50x30m hanger could output 4-5 reinforcement fighters during the course of a fight... then we'd start to see some serious ship/fleet diversity.
    First, as I was saying earlier in the discord, any spawn feature based on just modified blueprint spawn should have a "build timer". I agree that the really weird individual block build of the stations is silly and buggy. But the timer needs to be there for this fleet spawn to mitigate spam.

    Second. I think it should be a function of the logistics chamber coupled with at least some sort of a ship-yard setup. I totally agree, it should just be a straight "take the resources from the ship storage" and "spawn it.". But I think that there should be some sort of spawn zone or spawn point in relation to the station or carrier. This would not only give players finer control over where they're spat out, but would also allow for the system to still sorta make sense.

    Like, you need a logistics chamber and a shipyard somewhere on your ship/base. The shipyard size determines the maxi size of ships that can be spawned. The logstics chamber lets the ship have a shipyard. Then you have some sort of a drone spawn location on the ship/station. I'm thinking the sorta boxy-system from the old turrets. The ships 100% should never spawn docked to the ship. I think there should just be a boxy system for determining the spawn location. Like, set down some modules inside the ship to define the spawn location, if your modules are killed then you lose your spawn capability. If your shipyard is killed you lose your spawn capability. If your logistics chamber is killed, you lose your spawn capability. And the ships 'return' to somewhere in the large spawn box to be disassembled, as well as spawn at it.

    Also, for the ships specifically, the logistics chamber could have an option that allows you to spawn ships larger than your shipyard, as well as one that makes your spawn zone larger.

    Spawning fleets would be a strong factor in making stations more robust at repelling attacks. Imagine attacking a mining base and suddenly its patrol fleet is called back from the nearby belt and you have a player-designed destroyer and several frigates all over you in addition to the base guns. Could be painful; would definitely catch new, would-be pirates and trolls by surprise the first time and make everyone think twice about station attacks against offline opponents because a very small station could be basing an absolutely huge patrol fleet ("hey - let's take over this mineral-rich system. blast the outpost!" ...two, 500+ meter, heavily turreted cruisers appear).
    Another thought I had while reading this relates to how the more fiddly mechanics of the stations being hardpoints would work.

    At first I thought "Maybe there should be an antenna requirement that determines your patrol range." But deicded that might be overly restrictive. Also, the case might be moot with NPCs. But if NPCs are more expensive I'm thinking that AI could have this limitation in the future to make it a cheaper, yet harder-to-use alternative to NPCs.

    My new thought now though is that you would need an antenna on any dedicated drone carriers or stations to determine the max number of drones it can command.

    Obviously the drones would be limited by on board resources, but I think it might be another thing to think about for carriers so that they can't spam too many fighters. Also, this would retain carriers as a highly-specialized ship, but still make them full of interesting choices and weakspots while being smaller. (hopefully).
     
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages
    1,696
    Reaction score
    1,199
    • Thinking Positive
    • Likeable
    Possibly a universe update feature?
    I think hardening stations should come before the universe update so that they are available for use in the new universe; it's a systems issue.

    You are probably right though. It may not be possible to sensibly determine how to harden stations until 1) systems 2.0 are stabilized and 2) we have a better experience of the universe our stations are meant to interact with.
     
    Joined
    Sep 14, 2017
    Messages
    666
    Reaction score
    928
    First, as I was saying earlier in the discord, any spawn feature based on just modified blueprint spawn should have a "build timer". I agree that the really weird individual block build of the stations is silly and buggy. But the timer needs to be there for this fleet spawn to mitigate spam.
    Spawn timer is a good idea from an immersion standpoint, but it should be a short timer kind of like the shipyard so that respawn can happen in time to reinforce the battle. Carriers will only carry as many resources as they can afford to lose. Since worth while drones are kind of expensive, spamming them is a bit of a non-issue since there is a huge gamble in carrying too many drone parts.

    Second. I think it should be a function of the logistics chamber coupled with at least some sort of a ship-yard setup. I totally agree, it should just be a straight "take the resources from the ship storage" and "spawn it.". But I think that there should be some sort of spawn zone or spawn point in relation to the station or carrier. This would not only give players finer control over where they're spat out, but would also allow for the system to still sorta make sense.
    While this makes since logically, this is actually a really bad idea in that it would just recreate the same problem we currently have with carriers. If you are flying full reverse and your hanger is on your tail, you will ram right into your launched drone before it can move, or if your drone is in front of the same carrier, it will try to ram the carrier to get to the hanger trying to land. The idea here is to forgo a little bit of realism for a massive improvement in playability. Spit the drone out in the opposite direction you are moving so you never collide on launching and just let it "ram" you to land. This will also be really helpful for mining drones since time wasted on AI trying to figure out how to land is the big thing that makes them useless.

    Also, for the ships specifically, the logistics chamber could have an option that allows you to spawn ships larger than your shipyard, as well as one that makes your spawn zone larger.
    This defeats the point of using shipyard size as a natural balancing factor. I think all shipards (both starbase and carrier versions) should consider size a strict limit.

    My new thought now though is that you would need an antenna on any dedicated drone carriers or stations to determine the max number of drones it can command.
    You may have missed the point of my suggestion about one drone per "hanger". Think like this: these hangers will take up space, that means your ship needs to contain them and devote armor to protecting them; so, even if they are mostly empty space, the size they add to ship and the weight of cargo will naturally limit drone spam making an additional antenna system redundant. Also, ballenencing a centralized controller is not as organic as hangers. By using hanger balancing, larger drones need larger hangers, smaller drones need smaller hangers. This way, light fighter counts are not interfering with your ability to spawn heavy bombers and vice versa promoting fleet diversity.
     
    Joined
    Jul 1, 2013
    Messages
    530
    Reaction score
    348
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    I love this entire idea and everything said in this thread, and i think this is something we desperately need with player stations being so vulnerable.
     
    Joined
    Oct 12, 2015
    Messages
    321
    Reaction score
    257
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Purchased!
    To be honest you don’t even need carriers as fleets don’t require any supplies like fuel or ammo to operate. If fleets were limited in how far they could operate from a fixed post or vessel carrying specialized gear, then while still not justifying carriers, would still justify command posts and ships. The extent of dedication to that command ship/post mission in the form of specialized gear and reactor chambers should also determine how many can be controlled at once, taking care of other issues beyond just gameplay.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: MacThule
    Joined
    Jan 31, 2015
    Messages
    1,696
    Reaction score
    1,199
    • Thinking Positive
    • Likeable
    To be honest you don’t even need carriers as fleets don’t require any supplies like fuel or ammo to operate. If fleets were limited in how far they could operate from a fixed post or vessel carrying specialized gear, then while still not justifying carriers, would still justify command posts and ships. The extent of dedication to that command ship/post mission in the form of specialized gear and reactor chambers should also determine how many can be controlled at once, taking care of other issues beyond just gameplay.
    Actually, yeah. Excellent thinking, because control of fleet sizes and range and total mass is a suggestion that has come through a few times. It would dovetail nicely with the idea here, allowing scaleable fleet sizes and ranges based on engineering skill and strategy in terms of ensuring you have dedicated command posts and command ships to control the resources and space lanes you want to.