StarMade v0.19519 Cargo & more

    nightrune

    Wizard/Developer/Project Manager
    Joined
    May 11, 2015
    Messages
    1,324
    Reaction score
    577
    • Schine
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Thinking Positive
    Thanks for those great expositions/responses Bench. I can't tell you how much I already love this game and how much I appreciate your patience and giving a look into. Schine is doing a great job. The bugs that show up are fairly minimal compared to some of the other early access game I've seen. More content faster is always great, but keep up the quality.

    INTO THE FRONTIER WE GO!
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    http://starmadedock.net/members/185031/
    I was originally going to explain my suggestion while responding to the following quotes but I'll keep my suggestion out of it and follow Bench's suggestion instead and put something a bit more indepth on the Suggestions board. Thus, my post here are going to be(hopefully) a bit more focused on just responding to the points made.



    One word: Tetris. Get some graph paper, make a 10x10 box and see how full you can get that box using standard Tetris blocks with these varying scenarios:
    1. All one block type. You have complete freedom to put blocks in without worrying about gravity.(i.e. box is drawn using the XY axis, you place from the Z axis.
    2. Use an dice roller, assign each block a number(1-7) and put blocks down as you roll their number. Normal Tetris rules(blocks go to the bottom, can't clip through blocks while rotating) but you don't have a timer.
    3. As above but you have 10 seconds to put each block down.
    4. Roll about 30 times. Count out how many of each block you have and figure out how you can fit as many blocks in as possible. Same rules as 1. Start a timer as soon as you begin filling the box. Stop the timer when you think you've done the best arrangement possible.(This may be simpler if you had legos or something of that nature instead of having to fill in/erase squares constantly. Can also use a spreadsheet with conditional formatting to change the background color).

    Count the number of empty cells. Odds are, you'll have the least amount of empty spaces in scenarios 1 and 4. Depending on your skill, you may have spent a good amount of time finding an optimum arrangement.

    Every game inventory system abstracts dealing with items as we do in real life. This is primarily due to the fact that not only programming an accurate representation of inventory handling in the real world is a pain but that we really don't have any input devices that would make such a system anywhere near as intuitive as it would be in the real world. Odds are we won't ever see anything like that until immersive VR is developed and even then, I'd expect many games to still abstract inventory management since, on average, people are abyssmal at it.

    Now, every type of inventory abstraction has its flaws, no real way around it. Part of game design is figuring out which flaws work with the game itself. Given that Starmade focuses more on having multiple of the same item as opposed to many distinct items a system that functions with that in mind is preferable to one that doesn't.



    Simple: It makes sense in the exact, same, vein that the systems you mentioned do. As "forcing" players to build a certain way...This suggestion means they either need to have an access point to wherever they put their cargo hold or chain modules up to the storage module in their bridge/cockpit. Considerably less "forcing" than requiring players to allocate hundreds to thousands of blocks on their ships and bases to be used as non-interactable storage.



    I can only assume you thought the list of suggestions I made were meant as individual ones when they were intended suggested as a group. The reason I say that is the scenario you describe not only exists right now but is promoted by the personal cargo feature.

    To make it clearer, let's imagine a storage module as a box and each inventory space is another box within. BoxA and BoxB respectively.
    Current inventory system works like this:
    BoxA can hold an infinite number of BoxBs.
    Each individual BoxB can hold one item type but an infinite number of them.
    BoxA, however is on a scale and is weighed down by the contents of it's BoxBs.
    Cargo Spaces are used as a counterweight on the scale.

    Result: With enough cargo spaces, a linked storage can hold everything.

    My suggestion:
    BoxA can hold a limited amount of BoxBs.
    Each individual BoxB can hold one item type but is limited on how many it can hold.
    Cargo Spaces increase the capacity of each BoxB in a BoxA but experiences diminishing returns.

    Result: A single storage could, potentially hold an infinite amount of a few item types but it would be much more efficient(regarding block:storage ratio) to use several storage modules.

    In other words, you just countered my argument with, "I don't want it to work the way it is now."

    And now, I'm going to actually play for a bit then get around to writing up a detailed post that fleshes out my inventory suggestion and throw it up on the Suggestions board.

    Edit to prevent double posting:

    Fix that now. One of the worst things a game can have is a dev team that's not actively playing their game. If that means a slightly longer production cycle, so be it. It's damned hard to fix something when you don't work with the final product.

    Just wanted to clue you in on real life a bit.
    Take a look at the image from google. Its a ware house owned by DOD. Over half of that warehouse is fully automated. Pallets are stacked and unpacked by machine and items picked. It also automatically stores 31,000+ pallets with 12 automated cranes that have shelves 2 pallets deep on each side 9 high 72 long. 12 x 9 x 4 x 72 = 31104 pallets. This wear house stores everything from food to clothing for the US military.
    There is a second large ware house on the site that also has a great deal of automation. I know because I worked there from 1992 through 1999. My job was maintaining that site and Sharpes army depot that was had as much stuff automated. Since then I have worked for Texas Instruments and other companies the level of automation is only increasing.
    https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7087846,-121.3949665,437m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

    I'd say their system does ok for mimicking to what extent it can an real world automated system. That's with 20+ years of industrial automation under my belt and 30 years programming experience.
     
    Last edited:

    Bench

    Creative Director
    Joined
    Jun 24, 2013
    Messages
    1,046
    Reaction score
    1,745
    • Schine
    • Wired for Logic
    • Legacy Citizen 6
    http://starmadedock.net/members/185031/



    Just wanted to clue you in on real life a bit.
    Take a look at the image from google. Its a ware house owned by DOD. Over half of that warehouse is fully automated. Pallets are stacked and unpacked by machine and items picked. It also automatically stores 31,000+ pallets with 12 automated cranes that have shelves 2 pallets deep on each side 9 high 72 long. 12 x 9 x 4 x 72 = 31104 pallets. This wear house stores everything from food to clothing for the US military.
    There is a second large ware house on the site that also has a great deal of automation. I know because I worked there from 1992 through 1999. My job was maintaining that site and Sharpes army depot that was had as much stuff automated. Since then I have worked for Texas Instruments and other companies the level of automation is only increasing.
    https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7087846,-121.3949665,437m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

    I'd say their system does ok for mimicking to what extent it can an real world automated system. That's with 20+ years of industrial automation under my belt and 30 years programming experience.
    Thanks for sharing that GRHayes that's quite fascinating :D
     
    • Like
    Reactions: nightrune
    Joined
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages
    7
    Reaction score
    2
    http://starmadedock.net/members/185031/
    Just wanted to clue you in on real life a bit.
    Take a look at the image from google. Its a ware house owned by DOD. Over half of that warehouse is fully automated. Pallets are stacked and unpacked by machine and items picked. It also automatically stores 31,000+ pallets with 12 automated cranes that have shelves 2 pallets deep on each side 9 high 72 long. 12 x 9 x 4 x 72 = 31104 pallets. This wear house stores everything from food to clothing for the US military.
    There is a second large ware house on the site that also has a great deal of automation. I know because I worked there from 1992 through 1999. My job was maintaining that site and Sharpes army depot that was had as much stuff automated. Since then I have worked for Texas Instruments and other companies the level of automation is only increasing.
    https://www.google.com/maps/@37.7087846,-121.3949665,437m/data=!3m1!1e3?hl=en

    I'd say their system does ok for mimicking to what extent it can an real world automated system. That's with 20+ years of industrial automation under my belt and 30 years programming experience.
    I'm curious about the DoD setup. How many of those cranes were redundant when it came to range and function? Were there any handoff steps done(i.e. any instances of a crane taking a pallet from point a to point b where it's picked up by another crane)? If so, were any of these steps done due to sorting(crane A delivers a pallet to point A B or C depending on the content)? Finally, how much time, and effort was put in to design, implement, and ensure it all worked?

    If your answers were, in order: Yes, no, no and, "Hardly any time and effort at all." Then I'll be inclined to agree with you since the current system mimics a warehouse automation that requires one crane that can pick up any type or amount of item and deliver it to and from locations. It can be set up by a five year old in a matter of minutes, and the only concerns you have when increasing the scale is having the building materials and building.

    I'm well aware that large-scale automation exists and is in use today. The thing is, it takes time, effort and know-how to do it(else your 20+ years of experience wouldn't mean squat) and I have a problem with any game where inventory management should be a concern giving that level of automation to players with scarcely any more time/effort than building a non-automated setup.
     

    Winterhome

    Way gayer than originally thought.
    Joined
    Jun 29, 2013
    Messages
    1,929
    Reaction score
    636
    The thing is, it takes time, effort and know-how to do it
    Not a concern in a universe where transporters and magical vacuum lasers that suck perfect cubes of metal into a tightly packed space not only exist, but are easy to use plug-n-play hardware.
     
    Joined
    Dec 2, 2015
    Messages
    7
    Reaction score
    2
    Not a concern in a universe where transporters and magical vacuum lasers that suck perfect cubes of metal into a tightly packed space not only exist, but are easy to use plug-n-play hardware.
    Then why bother with cargo spaces at all? Current storage units without volume restrictions would have done the exact same thing without requiring development time being spent to make them.

    If Schine wants to flat-out say that this is the desired level of complexity, so be it. I won't bother finishing up my fleshed out suggestion. Personally though, I'd rather an inventory system that isn't simpler than dealing with a child's toybox.
     

    Criss

    Social Media Director
    Joined
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages
    2,187
    Reaction score
    1,772
    • Master Builder Bronze
    • Video Genius
    • Competition Winner - Stations
    Then why bother with cargo spaces at all? Current storage units without volume restrictions would have done the exact same thing without requiring development time being spent to make them.

    If Schine wants to flat-out say that this is the desired level of complexity, so be it. I won't bother finishing up my fleshed out suggestion. Personally though, I'd rather an inventory system that isn't simpler than dealing with a child's toybox.
    I find it hard to see how it is more complex. The storage modules are exactly the same as before. The difference is the capacity so you may need to use more of them to store everything. If you want to just use the storage controller block you can do so and it functions almost exactly the same. However setting up an automated factory could be tedious if more storage blocks are introduced into the system so that is why cargo was added in.

    If you want to expand on the storage block with cargo area then you can and it could store everything you need in one single space. Factories don't pull more than they need so you can pull from one cargo area for all of your factories. That is simple. And it is much easier and quicker to setup an automated factory over the old system.

    Implementing stack limits with limited slots per block means you would be setting up just as much space for that system as you do with the current cargo system, except you would need to connect each individual block if you wanted it to be sorted and work with factories and that is an unnecessary complication.
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    I'm curious about the DoD setup. How many of those cranes were redundant when it came to range and function? Were there any handoff steps done(i.e. any instances of a crane taking a pallet from point a to point b where it's picked up by another crane)? If so, were any of these steps done due to sorting(crane A delivers a pallet to point A B or C depending on the content)? Finally, how much time, and effort was put in to design, implement, and ensure it all worked?

    If your answers were, in order: Yes, no, no and, "Hardly any time and effort at all." Then I'll be inclined to agree with you since the current system mimics a warehouse automation that requires one crane that can pick up any type or amount of item and deliver it to and from locations. It can be set up by a five year old in a matter of minutes, and the only concerns you have when increasing the scale is having the building materials and building.

    I'm well aware that large-scale automation exists and is in use today. The thing is, it takes time, effort and know-how to do it(else your 20+ years of experience wouldn't mean squat) and I have a problem with any game where inventory management should be a concern giving that level of automation to players with scarcely any more time/effort than building a non-automated setup.
    One TMSC's wafer fabs Intel and others run similar fabs.

    Actually the system has a conveyor system that feeds in and out from the cranes. which leads to 4 robots for stacking and unstacking pallets.
    The pallets are actually placed on bar coded trays. The system was had PLC systems in each crane and robot. And on each conveyor system. All with a primary control system managed by a vax systems. They planed it in about 1 month installed it in 3 and took about 1 year to work most the bugs out of it.

    But if you are wondering about stuff being shuffled around. They have a number of ware house on those bases. 1 of which is the primary shipping ware house so they have trucks with conveyor systems they off load the picked items onto that then deliver it to the ware house to put on trucks or even trains to be shipped out. They also deal with fast turn around critical stuff and things needed in medical. Many of times had stuff load on to a helicopter to be flown out in an emergency.

    So while it isn't the crane itself handing it necessarily to another crane you do have the conveyor systems that hand it to the crane which stores it and then pulls the items when needed later on. So it is extremely vary much like the current system.

    However if you want an even closer analogy. The microprocessor fabs that are automated take the wafers that chips are made on trans port them in special trays which can enter high temp furnaces and move the wafers on a conveyor system to each system that has to process them. They have to store those wafers while other runs are in furnaces getting etched and so on. They even end up going through the system multiple times each time building new layers.

    While the equipment is built on previous known information any time something new is done at a wafer fab. We have to run test process and fine tune the process till we get the results. In short if you compare what is being done in this game vs the real life this is simple.

    I have yet to see a project in major industry work perfect out the gate. If it did my job would have been far easier. I have always been the person companies come to when shit doesn't work as planned and they need it fix. But hey its kept me from being on the unemployment line. Granted can't say I haven't put countless other people there by automating their jobs.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Aug 1, 2015
    Messages
    472
    Reaction score
    84
    • Purchased!
    this update looked great and I was enjoying rebuilding my shipyard/station and adding in storage modules when the game just crashed giving me a nullpointer exeption error,i restarted from the launcher and it will load up to the game then go null pointer again,i sent a bug report in still waiting to hear back,i'm a newbe at this game and me and my son found it enjoyable to play together because the mechanics were fairly easy and didn't require a huge learning curve just to play like other games,but back to the nullexeption error any ideas as we cant play at all.
     
    Joined
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages
    436
    Reaction score
    73
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    this update looked great and I was enjoying rebuilding my shipyard/station and adding in storage modules when the game just crashed giving me a nullpointer exeption error,i restarted from the launcher and it will load up to the game then go null pointer again,i sent a bug report in still waiting to hear back,i'm a newbe at this game and me and my son found it enjoyable to play together because the mechanics were fairly easy and didn't require a huge learning curve just to play like other games,but back to the nullexeption error any ideas as we cant play at all.
    Have you attempted to make a new install in a new location and try running that?

    Also I would suggest you make a post here http://starmadedock.net/forums/gamesupport/ with an attached log file. You can find the log folder where starmade was installed.
     
    Joined
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages
    436
    Reaction score
    73
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Dear Bench

    After a rather serious amount of play testing I have decided that the current method of cargo transfer is not up to par, and results in a major limitation of the systems capabilities and ability to interact meaningfully with other systems. TL|DR below

    "Just connect your docker and rail to the storage you want to pull from or of, then deactivate pulling on the one you want to be pulled from, and it will pull to the other just like it would on the same entity."

    Having to disable pulling on one in order for the other side to pull is while logical in the current implementation a major issue with nested transfers and shared cargo spaces.

    Further adding to this issue is wireless logic being the only proper(easy) way to send logic signals between entities, limiting the plug and play aspect people are so craving with cargo transfer.

    I think the root of the problem lies in that linking rails/dockers and storage is limited to a one-way relation ship, the rail or the docker is always the master limiting the "linked" storages into facing a pull battle.
    This is a stark contrast to why storage transfer works so beautifully on the same entity, people are used to the idea that a master storage pulls, and a slaved storage gets pulled from.

    To quote my self from several weeks ago:
    As for using docked rails and storage I would think the best way to configure the direction of pull being like this. (Assuming entity A is docked to B.)
    Entity A has a rail docker as the master with a slaved storage block, on entity B there is a master storage with a slave connection to the rail. The master storage on B would end up pulling from the slaved storage on A, much like how storage transfer works on the same entity.
    That would then allow the reverse to happen, and a master storage on A with the rail docker as the slave would be able to pull from any storage slaved to the rail on B.

    After that the control of items following to/from these storage blocks would work like it does now and can be controlled very well with logic.

    TL|DR Cargo Transfer is majorly limited, we need the ability to define storage as Master(pulls from others Slave) and Slave(pulled to others Master), not just Slave when linking to and from Rail/Docker.

    This wont fix all of the issues with cargo and its interactions, but it will be a major improvement over its current state.
     
    Joined
    May 18, 2015
    Messages
    287
    Reaction score
    165
    • Purchased!
    Dear Bench

    TL|DR Cargo Transfer is majorly limited, we need the ability to define storage as Master(pulls from others Slave) and Slave(pulled to others Master), not just Slave when linking to and from Rail/Docker.

    This wont fix all of the issues with cargo and its interactions, but it will be a major improvement over its current state.
    I have to agree with this. The current setup for transfer seems cumbersome. Why not add an interface to the storage module similar to the transporter, that shows other storage modules either on the entity, or docked to it with appropriate permissions to transfer?
     

    StormWing0

    Leads the Storm
    Joined
    Jun 26, 2015
    Messages
    2,126
    Reaction score
    316
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    This is generally why I have a pull storage and a push storage on my stations. If someone wants to dump things into the station there are storages pulling from ships for that, if someone wants to offload things from the station there are outputs for that. But yes the main issue is sometimes you'll need to get out and turn on or off the pulls on one or the other. It'd be nice if there was a way to make a storage pull from other storages on the same entity but not docked ones. Like some little checkbox on the storage itself that says this storage can or can't pull from docked entities.
     
    Joined
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages
    59
    Reaction score
    19
    • Purchased!
    This is a problem for me too... I have a separate salvaging entity (which I call "Drill head") docked to my miner ship and it sends stuff to the main ship's storage through docking rails, so I have to have pulling 'on' in my mining ship.

    When I connect the mining ship to cargo hauler, the cargo hauler has item pulling on and I'd like it to automatically pull the cargo off the miner, but now I always have to go and put the pulling 'off' the miner before the cargo transfers into the hauler =(

    It would help if there was even a way to set the item pulling 'off' by an inner ship remote and not walk there manually... But it would be best if it could be fully automated.



    EDIT: Also, should this issue have it's own thread under "suggestions"?
     

    Ithirahad

    Arana'Aethi
    Joined
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages
    4,150
    Reaction score
    1,330
    • Purchased!
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    This is a problem for me too... I have a separate salvaging entity (which I call "Drill head") docked to my miner ship and it sends stuff to the main ship's storage through docking rails, so I have to have pulling 'on' in my mining ship.

    When I connect the mining ship to cargo hauler, the cargo hauler has item pulling on and I'd like it to automatically pull the cargo off the miner, but now I always have to go and put the pulling 'off' the miner before the cargo transfers into the hauler =(

    It would help if there was even a way to set the item pulling 'off' by an inner ship remote and not walk there manually... But it would be best if it could be fully automated.



    EDIT: Also, should this issue have it's own thread under "suggestions"?
    Remember that you can put activator next to a rail docker and it will turn on when docked. Just have it turn off the pulling from the drill.

    However, yes, simultaneous cross-entity pulls should be implemented; I don't quite get why the game doesn't already allow for it.
     
    Joined
    Jul 21, 2013
    Messages
    2,932
    Reaction score
    460
    • Hardware Store
    Remember that you can put activator next to a rail docker and it will turn on when docked. Just have it turn off the pulling from the drill.

    However, yes, simultaneous cross-entity pulls should be implemented; I don't quite get why the game doesn't already allow for it.
    I asked the same, and the answer was, that it would likely lead to synch-related problems(including duping and item loss), when cross-entity becomes cross-sector.
     
    Joined
    Sep 11, 2015
    Messages
    59
    Reaction score
    19
    • Purchased!
    Remember that you can put activator next to a rail docker and it will turn on when docked. Just have it turn off the pulling from the drill.

    However, yes, simultaneous cross-entity pulls should be implemented; I don't quite get why the game doesn't already allow for it.

    Oh, I had totally missed that Storages can also recieve logic signal :O ...thanks for hinting that. With this knowledge I'll actually be able to automatize the miner docking =)


    Also when the rotator block is fixed to be able to transfer cargo, I'll make a revolving drill head B-)
     

    Ithirahad

    Arana'Aethi
    Joined
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages
    4,150
    Reaction score
    1,330
    • Purchased!
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    I asked the same, and the answer was, that it would likely lead to synch-related problems(including duping and item loss), when cross-entity becomes cross-sector.
    Just shutting it off on sector borders as a precaution would be preferable to not implementing it at all.
     
    Joined
    Apr 24, 2013
    Messages
    436
    Reaction score
    73
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    I am still confident that 90% of the cargo transfer problems people have can be solved with proper Master/Slave linking. Needing cross entity logic is even less of issue with that.
     
    Joined
    May 8, 2015
    Messages
    4
    Reaction score
    0
    ... a good master slave linking thinking it's take 20 sec linking storage and setting a efficient pull in/out, it will take me 1 day 20 hour and 10 sec just linking all the needed storage to my capsule storage. (did we have a way to link more than one master a the time) a got 8047 to link.