StarMade News - November 9th 2015

[Campleroy]

I am so impressed with the direction this game seems to be taking. I don't post often, but I've been playing and following the development since Corneroids died. Way to go Schine!

I was thinking, could the cargo system, quarters system, and the teleport pads be used together to beam small amounts of cargo ship to ship? It's something Star Trek does all the time and it could be very useful in more spontaneous player trading, especially before they/their faction has the giant freighters, factories and other infrastructure to do industry on a larger scale, or in situations where you don't trust the other party enough to dock up. Just have it so a transporter room quarter containing both teleporter pads and a cargo area could beam a limited amount of cargo to any ship with a transporter room that contains a cargo area. There could be an option in the transport computer interface that lets you toggle receiving on and off. Of course this would be balanced so that it is an extra option to players, and much less efficient than whatever the normal process of cargo transfer becomes.

Actually having even finer control of receiving with transporters in general could be a good thing. Someone may want to purposely allow transport of a player outside their faction to a designated transporter room quarter in their ship, perhaps one adjoining a conference room, reception area or maybe a well defended room with an NPC security detail. It could allow for a lot of interesting interactions. You are free to beam aboard with your peace offering Ambassador Dave!

 

[Gmodism]

Wow, awesome this cargo system, exactly as I whished! :D
Also a few things would be really useful, that is:
-a storage that have more slots, because to few items can fit right now
-creative mode needs ALL the items, please ad them
-when playing in 720p the windows are to big by default= problems moving items...
-activate turrets from a distance would also be useful ^^

 

[Ithirahad]

Wow, awesome this cargo system, exactly as I whished! :D
Also a few things would be really useful, that is:
-a storage that have more slots, because to few items can fit right now

When you connect storage area blocks to your master storage block, it will create more slots, if I'm not mistaken.

-creative mode needs ALL the items, please ad them

What doesn't Creative Mode have at the moment? '~'

 

[ZektorSK]

Still no download ? duh -m-

 

[GRHayes]

I'll say now one stack doesn't equal one cargo crate. The capacity of each cargo crate will be more per crate than a storage block on its own. We'll obviously balance it appropriately so that both have value without being too OP but regardless of the specific numbers the amount of stacks you can store in a cargo crate will always be greater than with a storage block. For example (and this is pure speculation on how it could work, as it all depends on what schema and the team conclude on adding in) if one storage block holds say 12 slots in its inventory for stacks, then one cargo area (and therefore cargo crate) might add an additional 16 or 20. The thing to remember is that cargo is treated as an extension of storage blocks. So all the linking to salvages, factories, shipyards, etc will all be possible through linking to a storage block that has a cargo area attached.

The linking and so on isn't the issue or concern like I said some parts I like.
You said, "one stack doesn't cargo crate" then you said, "each cargo crate will be more per crate than a storage block." I can only assume that means a storage block after the change not the current storage block or this entire thing would be pointless. Who knows what those limits are going to be or the mass or any of it at this point!

What I do know is that a 3d volume will need to be assigned to a storage module. That cargo crates will fill that volume as they become filled from the sound of it.
These could be come full by mass, stack count, or a number of ways. When you get down to it they are nothing more than a class with with a list that can contain count its position.... and so on. 8000 ways to create that. At the end of it a cargo container will count as a block and will have a mass. We don't know what that mass will be it could be a simple number it could be based on the mass stored in it. No one has said yet.

Right now with what you said we have no idea how much of a volume change and mass change this will make to a ship. I suspect from the wording a lot of this is to gauge how people are going to react to it. Lets face it if we have to put a 10x10x10 space on a ship to replace a single current cube. That would be 1000 blocks and if you had a small mining ship that would play massive havoc on people starting out.

About the only thing we do know is everything that had storage on it in the past is pretty much going to need to be redesigned.
Has me wondering did the new start space station have this planned for as well. Or will that also need to be redone when it comes out?
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I assume if you are using fighters escort, the cargo probably isn't that important. People wouldn't protect their cargo with just fighters if it's their main storage, there is going to be corvettes, assault frigates, cruisers and battleships ect. The most cargo there is the more defended it is, also the cargo ship would have weapons and shields on it, so it's not just a giant target.

I believe this would also encourage more RPing with players as pirates invading trade runs when that is implemented and would give a reason to attack people for resources.

Again same mistake as everyone else. You don't consider single player or a player starting out.
They need to be able to defend against pirate attacks. They are not going to have an escort or anything else. Think about the junk ships you started the game with don't think of the ships you have after establishing a presence.

 

[Ithirahad]

Again same mistake as everyone else. You don't consider single player or a player starting out.
They need to be able to defend against pirate attacks. They are not going to have an escort or anything else. Think about the junk ships you started the game with don't think of the ships you have after establishing a presence.

If you mean player pirates, they won't attack these little ships any more than they do today... Generally only griefers. Big faction freighters would become big targets, but they'll generally have their own significant defenses - think of today's battleminers. But nooby haulers and mini miners will still rarely get attacked; it just won't be worth it. Less than now, in fact.

 

[GRHayes]

You need to take a pill and calm the hell down son. Breath in and breath out.

I am going to throw some hypothetical numbers at you. A 22*22*22 box of hull has 8000 cubic meters of space. Now I am going to make a wild low-ball assumption for a worst case scenario that one stack(type of block) is equal to 1 cubic meter. Then I will assume that 100 (major low-ball here) of a given item fits in one stack.
That tiny 20*20*20 space now has room for 8000 stacks, with a total cargo space for 800,000 individual items. (with one stack = 1 block and 1 stack = 100 items)
If the item stack could hold 1000 of an item, the cargo volume would be 8 million(!!?!!).

I really don't think cargo is going to be a major issue. Ships have tools to run, they have tools to stop missiles, they can drop drones and swarmers, and they can be tanks.(Plus every single weapon a warship uses) Unless you can give some actual idea of how you think this will ruin the game beyond keeping Tardis level space warping technology I would like to hear it.

Let me help you out since you seem incapable of grasping the point I was making.
What is the mass of a cargo crate? Is it 0.1 or is it 1.0 or is it based on the mass of the contents some fraction of it or the entire mass of the contents? You don't know do you.

But lets do your least possible issue. 20x20x20=8000 volume 0.1 adds 800 mass to your ship. Which now also has a volume increase of 8000 blocks in addition. Which means you will either need to leave those cargo exposed to space or rap a hull around it.
You will also want to add shielding to protect it. Maybe you will want to add ion protection as well. So that also just increased. Plus you now have more mass on your ship from everything that increased. suddenly you ship is slow as a dingy. So now you need to add more thrusters. All of which take more power.

However, what if mass is set to 1 that would be 8000 mass. Maybe the cargo crates have a mass limit and the weight of the cargo crate will be equal to that. how much more power would that take?

But hey maybe this is all really no issue at all and the most we really have to do is add one space for a single storage crate to get our current volume. What do you think the chances of that are? I'd say none.

All we have right now is a bunch of wishy washy answers that really tell us not much more than it is going to take more volume to store the same thing and it is also going to add mass.
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If you mean player pirates, they won't attack these little ships any more than they do today... Generally only griefers. Big faction freighters would become big targets, but they'll generally have their own significant defenses - think of today's battleminers. But nooby haulers and mini miners will still rarely get attacked; it just won't be worth it. Less than now, in fact.

How about being attacked by AI which is what I was trying to get at. Maybe pointing out to think about single player didn't make that obvious enough.

Is this thread also where someone pointed out to me that they are going to have more AI control.... and so on. I doubt seriously they are going to tell AI's not not attack people starting out or who have small ships or who are out mining.

As far as PvP its war. Disrupting supply lines is part of the game. Isn't that the point of having different types of ships and so on. With one breath people on here go we want to force people to have different types of ships for realism and the next well we don't want these ships attacked or we consider it griefing...

Just like they reduced shield effectiveness ages ago to shorten battles then they change again ships damage again because they didn't want them so short you could one shot a ship easily.

On here people talk about fixing single player but like in this discussion 99% of the time they end up trying to relate it to multiplayer and forget it has to meat both sides.

"Big faction freighters would become big targets, but they'll generally have their own significant defenses" ~ you can't say this because they haven't ever been created yet under the system discussed. You have ZERO idea how this is going to effect the ship performance because none of you are actually looking at that. You don't even have enough hard nailed down facts to even come close to looking at it properly.

Its the same issue I see on here consistently your focus is narrow like a horse with blinders on and no one takes a look at the larger picture and dynamics. Which is why completely deleted the game and all content and back up.

 

[RoyalWolfe]

Windows users can find the new launcher available via the Steam menu by simply selecting "Start with Beta Launcher" when starting StarMade within Steam.

um bench either you did this wrong on steams end, or the integration thing you mentioned isn't working, cause this button you speak of doesn't actually exist on my steam.

I had to manually download it and install it myself.

 

[Ithirahad]

GRHayes
As far as singleplayer goes, the likelihood of being attacked by AI will not suddenly magically increase. And when it eventually does, there will be ways (e.g. joining up with the Trading Guild, or possibly Scavengers) to make things easier for yourself. You won't be alone out there forever.

 

[MrApplypie]

I'm really looking forward to seeing how the cargo system will work. It will give me another reason to start building in this game again.

P.S. I need to get a job...

 

[Asvarduil]

The idea of this system is to allow for dedicated freighters to have some value. A warship isn't a cargo ship, so changes to all that aren't needed. No single ship is supposed to be great at everything, and this is just a new way of increasing ship types, which is a good thing.

Going one step further, this makes warships more valuable both for defending friendly freighters, and attacking enemy freighters.

It also helps very slightly with the 'one-man faction' problem, since it makes a little more sense to join up with a faction, than to try going it alone and being vulnerable as a result.

I still think the Faction system/secure location situation is in terrible shape and needs an overhaul much more than inventory does, but this is a step towards that...so, we'll see what this accomplishes.

 

[GRHayes]

GRHayes
As far as singleplayer goes, the likelihood of being attacked by AI will not suddenly magically increase. And when it eventually does, there will be ways (e.g. joining up with the Trading Guild, or possibly Scavengers) to make things easier for yourself. You won't be alone out there forever.

You are still looking at the small picture.
Ask how it is going to effect a player starting out? What will they need to do to even build a basic ship to start collecting and building more.
If you remember the space Haulers I put on community
Those ships are slow as hell and have next to no real protection at all. The only compartments that have any real room are the 4 forward containers. The rear ones had to be used for power and so on. Now throw in cargo crates into that ship inside the forward containers.
Then consider the potential mass change. Right now the ship has no offensive capability most the power goes to shields and thrust.
Shielding on the ship is pathetic to say the least and my smallest ship would punch a hole in it like Swiss cheese. Right now the top speed is about 50 or 60 from what I remember. Now with that added mass it all goes down and gets way worse if it was actually hauling cargo. You can mimic that by filling those interiors up with some cube or another and giving it mass and seeing what the dynamic changes will be.
But we don't know what that mass change will be.
That isn't such a small ship for a newbie to be starting off with. It sure as hell won't be out running pirates.
Even if mass was as small as 0.1 per cargo crate it would massively effect the ship.

 

[godmars]

snipsnipsnip

I get what you're saying but there's no telling what we will be looking at as far as the universe goes.

in the CURRENT meta, I would agree. Like they've said it's not going to be an overnight change, but a gradual transition. The problem is that you are looking at things in the current state of the alpha and assuming there will be no changes made to other dynamics to accompany the change with the cargo dynamic. What's to stop Schine from, as a default, giving a new player a pre-filled blue print for an entry level miner or combat ship? What's to say that the vanilla pirate ship will be a battleship that carries 20 nukes and can punch through 10 layers of adv armor? How do you know it will be difficult for a new player to get NPCs to protect their cargo, or the like?

You're making a ton of presumptions based off the minute amount of information they've provided us, and hopefully you should see what the issue with that is.

This stuff isn't even SET IN STONE yet for the most part, so going off the handle about how terrible an idea it is, how it will ruin starmade forever and you might as well uninstall, etc etc is jumping the gun just a little bit, don't you think?

 

[GRHayes]

I get what you're saying but there's no telling what we will be looking at as far as the universe goes.

in the CURRENT meta, I would agree. Like they've said it's not going to be an overnight change, but a gradual transition. The problem is that you are looking at things in the current state of the alpha and assuming there will be no changes made to other dynamics to accompany the change with the cargo dynamic. What's to stop Schine from, as a default, giving a new player a pre-filled blue print for an entry level miner or combat ship? What's to say that the vanilla pirate ship will be a battleship that carries 20 nukes and can punch through 10 layers of adv armor? How do you know it will be difficult for a new player to get NPCs to protect their cargo, or the like?

You're making a ton of presumptions based off the minute amount of information they've provided us, and hopefully you should see what the issue with that is.

This stuff isn't even SET IN STONE yet for the most part, so going off the handle about how terrible an idea it is, how it will ruin starmade forever and you might as well uninstall, etc etc is jumping the gun just a little bit, don't you think?

My original question was to the effect of what are they going to do for power, shielding, effects and so on to compensate for the new mass and block count.

I've seen no comment to suggest any actual means of dealing with it or correcting for the issues at all. So what well end up with is even less playability until they decide that is an issue.

As far as I seen its the same issue over and over again. They make changes and look purely at a small scope and refuse to look at the overall or macroscopic view of the way the entire game dynamics change and performance changes it will create.

Like I listed before they make a change then do something else to compensate for the negative effect of that change.

Sorry, I was always taught to trouble shoot for the root of an issue and solve that then you don't have to do this shotgun style patch and fix garbage. In short their method of game balance is hosed because they didn't include block count properly. The tried to implement something that should occurs naturally "Square-Cube Law". What is worse they apply it to all sorts of stuff it shouldn't be applied to at all making shit 100% the opposite of nature or real world/universe.

It just amazes me when people this smart do things that are so counter intuitive when it comes to programming. I've fired employees for a smaller mistakes.

No need to reply I don't see myself checking back any time soon.

Also I won't leave a negative rating on the game. I realize it is alpha and well I hope they fix the issues that bug the crap out of me. Best of luck.

 

[GaeasSon]

Many words have been spilled over this so I'll be brief...

• "ZOMG X number of blocks in a stack!!" >> Seems simple enough to make this server-settable.
• If we have cargo, can we have cargo scanners?
  
• If cargo has some sort of objective mass/volume, it really would be good to have cargo transporters. Or can I use Daves as longshoremen?
• If cargo scanners and transporters are each a thing, can pirates try to extort cargo out of us rather than just blasting at us? Can I do the same to them?
  
• "Drama! Angst! How can I function when this alpha game changes features I'm used to!?" >> Relax. They've made a great game so far, why should we complain as they try to make it better? If the changes really detract from the experience, we'll talk about it, they'll respond, the game will evolve. If you want a fully developed game without experimentation or feedback, I hear Fallout 4 is out.

 

[StormWing0]

The only main issues I'll really have is what changes am I going to make to my ships and stations to make this new system fit and also what are we going to do about sorting items through various storages?

After all it is going to be a pain to sort them all in huge areas again.


As for those whining about having 500 million in half a galaxy's worth of resources you had better start planning now and toss all that planet terrain junk you aren't going to use anyways. I'd build either a huge open area for storage on the station that needs it or have a separate station altogether for it if it gets that bad. Also yes devs DON'T!!! send this update out without also including the ability for sending items between the storages of different entities!!!!!!! Make sure this part rolls out with the main update or as close to it as possible because people are going to be pissed if it isn't.

 

[Mr.Steam]

If you do have 500 million blocks in inventory, what a awesome sight that will be! Huge storage hangers filled with stuff! It will look a lot cooler than one simple storage locker. Maybe all that stuff piled up will encourage you to use it?

I for one am super excited to see the game have more reasons to be in the galaxy. Not just who can show off the biggest ship.

 

[Krougal]

stuff

Hey that's a nice looking ship!
I thought I was an angry person (you should see my tirade on Empyrion's techtree) but you got me hands down. We don't even have enough details right now to hate this.
Just admit it, you still aren't over the HP update and anything they have done since you are gonna find fault with :p

You've got some good arguments and counter-points to possible situations that might arise, but that's all they are right now.
Everything needs work still, but if they figured out all the finer points of everything before they tried it out, we would never see anything get done.

I for one am super excited to see the game have more reasons to be in the galaxy. Not just who can show off the biggest ship.

Who can show off the biggest ship will be a lot more of an accomplishment; it'll be "who can pull off the logistics to show off the biggest ship"

 

[Mr.Steam]

who can pull off the logistics to show off the biggest ship"

Amen brother!

 

[kiraen]

I have been eagerly waiting for this update since it was a mere glimmer of an idea.

We're devising ways that you will be able to transfer between docked entities so you can move cargo via docked entities on rails.

Now to start designing my Standardized Cargo Pods.

As cargo is an extension of storage blocks, any sorting that you can do currently with storage blocks will in turn naturally extend to utilize the cargo attached to those storage blocks.

My major concern at this point is the magic quantum tubes of doom. Will these be part of the connection between storage and cargo? Please please please say no. Those damn tubes are annoying as hell.

<so much irrelevant stuff I decided to delete all the actual quotes>

I play primarily single player. I think this update is the single best improvement to the game ever.
You obviously don't know how freighters actually work. Freighter armament is limited. Traders do not waste money on weapon systems. If a freighter sees a pirate, the freighter runs. Get a jump drive and stay out of war zones.
But you quit the game anyway, so nothing you say even matters. I'm done with you.

Bench FYI, Steam doesn't work for you guys.
While I purchased through steam I have only tried to actually use steam for an update twice. They screwed it up both times forcing me to wipe entirely and reinstall before I could play again. And I never use steam to run the game even tho it's installed in a steam directory. I'm not even going to try using steam to set up the launcher. Especially since I use a shortcut to run the game already.

I'm hoping the devs will take into acount blocks like rock and lava which end up in the 9 digits fast.

That or we're going to have to have some better way to process asteroids to super-condense the junk rock into a more storable form.

You could always sell or trash the junk. It's not like you get any benefit from hoarding all that crap. Keep 1k or so, but the rest, why do you even bother? But if it's really an issue for you...

There will be server config values for stack limiting

...talk to your server admin.


Re: Transporters, please no. It would completely eliminate all the work you are doing on rail transfers.
On that note, can we have a config option to disable transporters entirely? With transporters I see no reason to ever dock at any station other then my homebase, and that's only for the invulnerability. Being able to magically get thousands of blocks from a shop with no physical connection has annoyed me since day one.


(sorry for the wall, I was to busy to check the forums yesterday )