Starmade interest through the years

[JinM]

How do I propose to fix it? Simple.

1. Stop making dumb decisions that effectively throw away years of development.

2. Related to point 1, stop wasting time and resources. Schine have said they don't want to advertise, but then they waste the little money they have of dead end development. The upcoming power update is the biggest show of this. The fleet competition is also up there, as every single ship from that competition will have to be redone.

3. Listen to the community. Schine have said they don't play the game as a game. But instead of listening to the people who do, they ignore them. Listen to the PvPers on balance, listen to the builders on build system improvements, listen to the game-breakers on bug fixing. DO NOT THINK THIS COMMUNITY WILL GO QUIETLY. If you, Schine, keep doing as you are now and bullshitting the community, do not think it will not come back to bite you. You want a new community? Good luck with that after treating the previous one like shit.

That's obviously not everything that needs to happen but it's a hell of a good start.

"Listen to the community." - They do that and actually respond quite often. I assume you confuse listening with obeying. Just because I listen and think about feedback doesn't mean it is the best for the pvp if I do just as the majority of pvpers want here.

"Schine have said they don't play the game as a game." - That's true, they said that. But don't put the words in another context: Fristly of that means that they play the game and ofcourse they also play the pvp part. But they perceive it differently. It does not mean they have no clue how to pvp. Actually they might know better than everyone else how to pvp in Starmade as they know exactly how the math works additionally to the practical feedback they get from other players. So they know booth sides: The praxis pvpers and the theoretical pvp part. Secondly the sentence did not mean they don't know how pvp in a game works. Actually I think each one of the Shine members is a gamer (I don't know that but I think you don't disagree with me when I say it's very likely. ). And I think they read a lot of game theory and balancing theory texts

The only thing this sentence was meant to say is, that Shine plays the game, but perceives it way differently than for example a casual 18 year old gamer. They are older and they are having the code in front of them very often. Ripping this sentence out of context and assuming that they have no clue about how pvp works is not a nice move at all.

"Listen to the PvPers on balance, listen to the builders on build system improvements, listen to the game-breakers on bug fixing." - Assuming that the team is not interested into improving and progressing the game is unlogical. Why would any game developer be interested into making the game worse? Do you really think they do what they do to not improve the game? xD This is what I read between lines when I read your sentences. And I think that's not true mate, you are on the wrong thought train here.

Balance is not ignored, there are many mechanics in place and planned (like chambers and reactor levels) that give many possibilites to balance pvp. Game breaking bugs got adressed often and they even changed the way they release updates to: dev-build leads to pre-release build leads to stable-build.

"NOT THINK THIS COMMUNITY WILL GO QUIETLY. If you, Schine, keep doing as you are now and bullshitting the community, do not think it will not come back to bite you. " - Did they once say they are not interested into the feedback? Did they once say they want you guys to shut up? Did they once say you can go play another game? They only said they don't advertise it as it has many missing features. And they said they want to actively engage in player seeking when the game is in a more finished state. That doesn't mean they don't care for the progression or that they want you to stop playing. Not wanting to advertise is not the same as wanting to get rid of old players. It's something totally different with different motivations and different goals.

And about bullshitting the community and that it will bite back...If you bought the game on Steam you can go an leave a negative review there, when this is what you honestly think of the game. But don't leave a comment because you don't get something Shema didn't promisse: Pvp as you want it, was never promissed on the Steam page or on Starmades homepage!

Here, to quote the steam page, is what is promissed for the game: Community multiplayer (dedicated servers) - Play with others in our community hosted servers. Our configs allow administrators to customise core game mechanics for a tailored experience. Most settings can be tweaked to squeeze the best performance out of hardware. Modular Weapon Systems - Combine weapon systems for countless configurations of weapons. From sniper beams to swarm missiles.

So how is Shine bullshitting the community exactly? Did they promisse working pvp? Yes. Did they advertise pvp in the way you want it? No. Did they say they balance pvp within a given set of time? No. Did they give missleading messages about the content of this game? No. Please just prove me wrong and answer one of my questions differently, or tell me more precise what you understand about the bullshitting.

"You want a new community? Good luck with that after treating the previous one like shit.

That's obviously not everything that needs to happen but it's a hell of a good start." I just want to let youthink about one thing lastly: Would you listen to Shine, and like Shine, if they used the same temper you have to talk to you back? Would you like listening to yourself? Are you satisfied with yourself and how you talk to others?

 

[AtraUnam]

It's easy to get more players if you already have a community. Schine have said in both their comments and their attitudes that they fully expect no one from the current community to be part of the community upon release. That's likely true, because at this rate there won't be a community if they finally release.



I'm not a snake handler, but I know getting bitten is probably not a good idea. Just because you are not a professional in the field does not mean you do not recognise good and bad decisions, nor does it remove the option of bringing those decisions into question.

Nice try I'll be here breaking stuff forever!

Spoiler: Blatant Exposition

Atra and Starmade. Atra and Starmade and their adventures, Starmade.. Atra AND Starmade FOREVER AND FOREVER A HUNDRED YEARS Atra and Starmade.. some...things.. Me and Atra and Starmade runnin' around and... Atra and Starmade time... a- all day long forever.. all a - a hundred days Atra and Starmade! forever a hundred times.... OVER and over Atra and Starmade... adventures dot com.. W W W dot at Atra and Starmade dot com w..w..w... Atra and Starmade adventures.. ah- hundred years..... every minute Atra and Starmade dot com.... w w w a hundred times... Atra and Starmade dot com.......

 

[Calhoun]

"Listen to the community." - They do that and actually respond quite often. I assume you confuse listening with obeying. Just because I listen and think about feedback doesn't mean it is the best for the pvp if I do just as the majority of pvpers want here.

"Schine have said they don't play the game as a game." - That's true, they said that. But don't put the words in another context: Fristly of that means that they play the game and ofcourse they also play the pvp part. But they perceive it differently. It does not mean they have no clue how to pvp. Actually they might know better than everyone else how to pvp in Starmade as they know exactly how the math works additionally to the practical feedback they get from other players. So they know booth sides: The praxis pvpers and the theoretical pvp part. Secondly the sentence did not mean they don't know how pvp in a game works. Actually I think each one of the Shine members is a gamer (I don't know that but I think you don't disagree with me when I say it's very likely. ). And I think they read a lot of game theory and balancing theory texts

The only thing this sentence was meant to say is, that Shine plays the game, but perceives it way differently than for example a casual 18 year old gamer. They are older and they are having the code in front of them very often. Ripping this sentence out of context and assuming that they have no clue about how pvp works is not a nice move at all.

"Listen to the PvPers on balance, listen to the builders on build system improvements, listen to the game-breakers on bug fixing." - Assuming that the team is not interested into improving and progressing the game is unlogical. Why would any game developer be interested into making the game worse? Do you really think they do what they do to not improve the game? xD This is what I read between lines when I read your sentences. And I think that's not true mate, you are on the wrong thought train here.

Balance is not ignored, there are many mechanics in place and planned (like chambers and reactor levels) that give many possibilites to balance pvp. Game breaking bugs got adressed often and they even changed the way they release updates to: dev-build leads to pre-release build leads to stable-build.

"NOT THINK THIS COMMUNITY WILL GO QUIETLY. If you, Schine, keep doing as you are now and bullshitting the community, do not think it will not come back to bite you. " - Did they once say they are not interested into the feedback? Did they once say they want you guys to shut up? Did they once say you can go play another game? They only said they don't advertise it as it has many missing features. And they said they want to actively engage in player seeking when the game is in a more finished state. That doesn't mean they don't care for the progression or that they want you to stop playing. Not wanting to advertise is not the same as wanting to get rid of old players. It's something totally different with different motivations and different goals.

And about bullshitting the community and that it will bite back...If you bought the game on Steam you can go an leave a negative review there, when this is what you honestly think of the game. But don't leave a comment because you don't get something Shema didn't promisse: Pvp as you want it, was never promissed on the Steam page or on Starmades homepage!

Here, to quote the steam page, is what is promissed for the game: Community multiplayer (dedicated servers) - Play with others in our community hosted servers. Our configs allow administrators to customise core game mechanics for a tailored experience. Most settings can be tweaked to squeeze the best performance out of hardware. Modular Weapon Systems - Combine weapon systems for countless configurations of weapons. From sniper beams to swarm missiles.

So how is Shine bullshitting the community exactly? Did they promisse working pvp? Yes. Did they advertise pvp in the way you want it? No. Did they say they balance pvp within a given set of time? No. Did they give missleading messages about the content of this game? No. Please just prove me wrong and answer one of my questions differently, or tell me more precise what you understand about the bullshitting.

"You want a new community? Good luck with that after treating the previous one like shit.

That's obviously not everything that needs to happen but it's a hell of a good start." I just want to let youthink about one thing lastly: Would you listen to Shine, and like Shine, if they used the same temper you have to talk to you back? Would you like listening to yourself? Are you satisfied with yourself and how you talk to others?

First of all, I'm not angry, I'm just not sugar coating it and taking the "schine can do no wrong" viewpoint.

Now.

When was the last time schine listened to the community on balance? When was the last time they even reached out to the community?

As for Schine playing the game, to suggest they do is laughable. The lead tester, Lawnbake, admitted recently he has not played the game in over 3 years. The only times the lead tester has booted up the game in the last three years is to make sure there aren't completely game breaking, insta crash bugs. Let that sink in. Also watch the dev streams. Watch as Schine members fumble around and mess up the systems that they, as part of the dev team, helped implement. Again, to suggest they play the game as it is played by the players is laughable. Doubly so when you mention PvP.

Assuming that the team is not interested into improving and progressing the game is unlogical. Why would any game developer be interested into making the game worse? Do you really think they do what they do to not improve the game? xD This is what I read between lines when I read your sentences. And I think that's not true mate, you are on the wrong thought train here.

As much as I hate to say the overused term, this is a complete and utter strawman. Never did I say they're not interested in fixing it. I simply said they are doing a terrible job of it. The community has members which could virtually lay the solution in front of them, but they don't reach out to them. They do not listen to them. Stop reading between the lines, there's nothing there but your own supposition.

Game breaking bugs got adressed often

AtraUnam all yours.

Did they once say they are not interested into the feedback? Did they once say they want you guys to shut up? Did they once say you can go play another game? They only said they don't advertise it as it has many missing features. And they said they want to actively engage in player seeking when the game is in a more finished state. That doesn't mean they don't care for the progression or that they want you to stop playing. Not wanting to advertise is not the same as wanting to get rid of old players. It's something totally different with different motivations and different goals.

And about bullshitting the community and that it will bite back...If you bought the game on Steam you can go an leave a negative review there, when this is what you honestly think of the game. But don't leave a comment because you don't get something Shema didn't promisse: Pvp as you want it, was never promissed on the Steam page or on Starmades homepage!

Stop putting words in my mouth. A member of Schine who will not be named has said outright they expect the current community to be gone. My statement had absolutely nothing to do with advertisement at all. My statement was virtually in reply to said Schine member who showed they don't give two shits about the community.

So how is Shine bullshitting the community exactly? Did they promisse working pvp? Yes. Did they advertise pvp in the way you want it? No. Did they say they balance pvp within a given set of time? No. Did they give missleading messages about the content of this game? No. Please just prove me wrong and answer one of my questions differently, or tell me more precise what you understand about the bullshitting.

Lets see now. We had a dev post that the newer power system would hit dev soon. Yet to see it. The social media director promised to update his thread in a day. Two months went by and then we got a post that said "I'm busy". We had a hyped up fleet contest, which was basically worthless because every single asset will have to be reworked because the decision was made to completely change a fundamental part of ship design that has been constant from the beginning of Starmade. That's what I call bullshitting.

And you are again putting words in my mouth.

Did they promises working PvP? Yes.
PvP the way I want it? What, balanced and optimised? You have no idea what I want from PvP to begin with.
Did they say they balance PvP within a given set of time? Where did I say they did?
Did they give misleading messages about the content of this game? Ohhhh yes they did mate. See the "bullshitting" paragraph.

I don't have to prove you wrong, you've done a stellar job of that yourself.

 

[AtraUnam]

I mean honestly most of the game breaking bugs that sane people will find to get addressed pretty quickly. Its one of the reasons some people advocate publicising powerful bugs in order to make schine fix them.

 

[Ithirahad]

Oh look another thread to feed the fanboys false hope into a game that is never going to be completed.


Sorry whiteknights, but this needs to be said:


Lets face some simple facts here, StarMade is never going to be successfull, this game is dying at a rapid rate yet a lot of you fanboys keep up the delusion that when this game becomes "complete" all the people who left are going to come back.

Nah. Seems to me that it's already as 'dead' as it'll ever get. Anyone who is still here at this point is here for the long haul.

Also, those aren't "simple facts", those - whether they prove to be right or wrong later on - are assumptions.

But let me tell you, the approx 200k people who have left this game do not plan on coming back, they have moved on to other games, most have forgotten this game even exists.

Seeing people randomly pop up and check back in tells me otherwise. Sure, all those 200k will not come back, but some number of them will. Especially if they hear that things have gotten better.

This game, like it or not is a failed project.

By what measure?

"B-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-buuuut its in alpha so its all ok"

I've seen the "but its alpha" excuse pulled by the same fanboys so many times, but that whole counter-argument becomes moot when you compare this game to other games that actually work.

But it is alpha, and it is, in fact, OK. In fact, it's to be expected with a single person working on the codebase of a game this huge. :P

Go play Avorion, the building mechanics are better then StarMade's in every way.
Go play Empyrion Galacitc Survival, see how the survival mechanics play out.
Go play Starpoint Gemini Warlords and see how the fleet mechanics are better then StarMade's fleet mechanics.

Avorion has no player (astronaut) mechanics, and unlike StarMade I doubt that they have any intentions of adding/improving them. I'm sure that their ships are shinier and that their building mechanics are better, but it looks as though they don't intend to take the game in quite the same direction.

Empyrion's survival mechanics are only 'better' because StarMade wants to take a different route that doesn't involve typical survival mechanics. This different route will take a lot more time to come together than a hunger and thirst bar and a fuel mechanic, but it may turn out better (for some people, in the end) if they can pull it off.

Of course SGW's fleet mechanics are better, considering that StarMade's fleet mechanics and even AI are still pretty much placeholders at this point. There may well have been a point (albeit a very temporary one) when SGW had crap fleet mechanics and even crappier AI, but we never had to deal with it because they had a normal-sized development team and a closed alpha cycle.

2 out of 3 of the games I mentioned are also in alpha, the exact same state this game is in right now and is going to stay in until its death.

wat

I mean, sure, it could play out that way. Just... neither you, nor I, nor anyone else knows that. If StarMade relied on large amounts of funding and still only delivered what it is delivering now, then it would have been dead in the water already. However, it doesn't, so "death" would probably only come to the game if Schema were to give up on it, which doesn't seem likely.

Take a look at this game, They spend 6 years with a buggy game with a terrible engine that keeps getting worse and worse the more it gets developed, then after 6 years they decide to start over with a completely new building system and to add icing on the cake, they did not even finish creating assets for the current system, they haven't even finished updating the NPC pirates to use the current docking system with was replaced over a year ago!

The 'building system,' as you put it, is the same. The underlying structure of blocks and segments and entities isn't changing. And even if they had to change that, I don't see what the issue is.

As for assets, of course they haven't updated the NPC pirates, if you mean the old pirate stations. It seems that some of those are being replaced, and any that aren't being replaced would need a lot more updating than just "use the current docking system". Not to mention the fact that Criss/Saber seem to take quite a while to get anything done. :P

This right here is a testemony to developer incompetence.

Deciding in the middle of alpha that they need to redesign a major system is a testimony to developer incompetence?

Revamps of this scale have happened to released games before, and it's a good thing (unless said revamp sucks, but that's out of the scope of this discussion). Nothing to do with incompetence, really.

Do you fanboys honestly think that people are going to "come back" after Systems 2.0? Do you honestly think that this game is "sleeping" rather then just plain dead? Do you honestly think StarMade is going to be marketable AT ALL?

Some people will come back after systems 2.0. Some will come back after the weapons update. Some will come in with the universe update and the new mechanics it brings. And this game is still getting a trickle of new players that we in the core community don't tend to hear from much, which I'm sure would increase if Duke were to use the game's advertising/exposure rounds.

I'm not expecting all of the game's 200,000 or whatever players who've given up on or left the game to suddenly burst back through the doors when the update hits; that'd be insane. But there are a lot of people who have specifically said that they're not playing because the update isn't out, and (judging from the past) major updates tend to bring all kinds of people crawling out of the woodwork one way or the other, even if some of them just leave again.

Wake up fanboys, you have all fallen victim to what is known as the sunk cost fallacy, its the very same thing nigerian prince scammers use to keep people giving them money.

Nah. I'm fully prepared to take my designs and transfer/rebuild them somewhere else if I see this game is really going down the drain. Sure, it'd take a while, but it would be worth it, if that became necessary. That's just not what I'm seeing by any means.

 

[Edymnion]

When was the last time schine listened to the community on balance? When was the last time they even reached out to the community?

When the power update was announced as being in the works.

And instead of being supportive and offering constructive feedback, the majority of the community proceeded to shit themselves in rage at the idea that something might change and just went full on ballistic against Schine.

Its no freaking wonder they're a little gun shy these days, considering the last time they tried to give the community an insight on what was happening, the community turned into raging assholes.
[doublepost=1506438012,1506435932][/doublepost]

Deciding in the middle of alpha that they need to redesign a major system is a testimony to developer incompetence?

Revamps of this scale have happened to released games before, and it's a good thing (unless said revamp sucks, but that's out of the scope of this discussion). Nothing to do with incompetence, really.

Just look at Diablo III.

 

[Calhoun]

loon your all ubts and degaem yjbnow

 

[GDPR 302420]

loon your all ubts and degaem yjbnow

T
Gho hime calgpu yit arwdrhbk ((abs sp an i for yhay nattsr)

 

[Jananton]

Somehow I always get very tired of these kind of threads.

Rome wasn't build in a day and not even in six years. In fact for a game concept that has been developed by a 'team' starting with only one person and now on and off up to a maximum of five or six, with only two having actual programming skills to my knowledge, that what is accomplished up til now is really above expectation.

I can only salute the dedication and perseverance the creators of StarMade put in all the different aspects and disciplines that make a game like this come together.

So, in a nutshell, don't expect development speed a multi billion game studio can accomplish, game programming and tailoring of it takes many, many man hours, so do the math.

Greets,

Jan

 

[Cluwne]

dedication and perseverance

Work smart, not hard.

 

[kiddan]

Lets face some simple facts here, StarMade is never going to be successfull, this game is dying at a rapid rate yet a lot of you fanboys keep up the delusion that when this game becomes "complete" all the people who left are going to come back.

Guess you'd better stop kicking a dead horse, then, because you look like just that if you actually believe the game is doomed to die while still logging in just to inform everyone else. And no, there isn't an uphill slope all the way home, so you don't need your parents to pick you up if they dropped you off at high school by mistake.

 

[The_Owl]

loon your all ubts and degaem yjbnow

T
Gho hime calgpu yit arwdrhbk ((abs sp an i for yhay nattsr)

Why the fuck are you both speaking welsh?

 

[silverfoe]

Work smart, not hard.

I prefer working hard and smart.

 

[Edymnion]

But let me tell you, the approx 200k people who have left this game do not plan on coming back, they have moved on to other games, most have forgotten this game even exists.

.
.
.

Do you fanboys honestly think that people are going to "come back" after Systems 2.0?

No, we think there will be new ones.

Because you know, there has been ZERO intentional advertising for Starmade. There has been no magazine ads, there have been no paid reviews, the entire hype engine has been completely inactive. For good reason.

The game only needs enough people right now to have a sufficient base for testing and feedback. Thats it. Hell, the game only went onto Steam when it did because they needed the money to pay for some more staff.

This game is doomed, other voxel games have beaten StarMade and are rapidly gaining playerbase while StarMade's community is dropping like flies, its like a suffering farm animal waiting to be put down to end its misery.

Then by all means, the door is right over there, leave.

 

[BDLS]

Regardless of all the things to think about, I get tired of people using "it's just a 1 man programming team" as an excuse for the eternal alpha development cycle. I feel like Schema kinda screwed the pooch on that one. There's just so much competition out there now as others have noted. I believe there has been a good time earlier in development where Schema could have said "this is an enormous concept, it's time to get serious and get a good programming team together."

 

[Greypoint]

Longtime lurker, first time poster. I'm just speaking for myself here, but it's not unlikely that there are others out there who are waiting quietly.

I'm in this for the long haul. I've put easily 300+ hours into StarMade, and while I no longer play, I watch each update, read each thread, and wait. Once this game has its core mechanics and content settled (so, likely Beta), I'll be coming back for good, and so will a number of my friends.

If you want this game to die, then by all means, continue to insult and berate the developers. Nothing helps to kill momentum and morale more than an unnecessarily aggressive and potentially toxic fanbase. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

There is such a thing as constructive criticism, and I'm happy to see the continued discussions across these boards as the game continues to develop. Discussions which arise from developers sharing their vision of the game, discussions which the developers have encouraged, and discussions whose feedback has been integrated. It might be hard for some to see, so close to the forest, but Schine is doing a pretty good job, considering their size and the ambition of this game.

A game like this is hard to do right, and I'm glad it's taking so long. I've been burned one too many times by AAA titles that got rushed out the door - I'll take a development cycle like this any day.

*Edit: Oh, and speaking of Systems 2.0, you can bet yer butt that I'll check it out, adapt some of my older ship designs, test some things out, maybe give some feedback if I have any... then go back to lurking until the next interesting-looking update rolls around.

 

[Amadeus]

*Hypothetical arguing over a hypothetical situation*

In reality, regardless of your opinion, the only way to know whether or not this game is successful will be to evaluate it from the future, after the game has released. I'm content to wait for that point in time, regardless of how long it takes. However long until release is unknown, but work is still being done on the game, and that's enough for me.

*grammar fix

 

[Plisko]

I am newer than many probably. I think I've been here about 6 months or so. I've been following this debate between the "white knights" and the "realists" for a bit now and I think the most disturbing point in all of it is that there is a SINGLE person (maybe sometimes 2 people) working on the coding etc. This is a thing that is supposed to calm people down? Knowing this? To me it feels more like an outrageous ambition. The single guy coder story is supposed to be the thing that gets the ball rolling. . . not the business plan 6 years later. If that is true then even someone with no coding skills could do math and predict that taking 6 years to get 1/3 of it done means a project this big could take 10 more years to even reach beta.

The "it's great for what it is" argument also falls flat for me. Notch was a part time, one man show who had Minecraft released as alpha for a year and beta for another year. Then he went full time and brought in a team. It was 5 years from first release to being bought as a successful product by Microsoft for 2.5 billion dollars. This is 6 years and still a buggy frustrating alpha with a core mechanic being re-done from scratch. How does this convince people that it is great compared to other games with the same story?

I'm sorry but even with my love of inde games I don't think my patience is as big as the ambition that expects me to wait. Maybe this IS really about making a game for all those other people after we are frustrated and gone. That makes me wonder if any time investment at all is worth it when half of it is frustrations and re-doing things.

Rome was not built in a day. . . but it also took a team of skilled people. . not one or two. If one guy tried to build it himself it would take 10,000 years and be obsolete by the time it was done. This isn't just time consuming coding. It is a technology curve where slow development causes the past work to become obsolete before you finish the present work. The more I ponder this arrangement, the harder it is to picture the finish line.

Every time someone says how great this game is for a 6 year alpha being developed by a micro team I feel worse about it not better. That's not the bright side. That's the soul crushing part. That's the part that tells me I will probably not be playing the final version when it is released in the year 2027 because we will all be playing next generation games by then.

I say this as someone who paid money deliberately to support development and has just been trying to have fun with building (the "most developed part") but even then the logic and rails are all flaking out on me regularly.

 

[Greypoint]

...I think the most disturbing point in all of it is that there is a SINGLE person (maybe sometimes 2 people) working on the coding etc.

There isn't. There's more than one person. There's more than two people, and it's definitely more than sometimes. Comparing this game to Minecraft is also disingenuous, given the scale involved and the fact that Minecraft doesn't have free-moving blocks. Nothing you've said is accurate and all your points are moot.

There's at least three developers, and there are artists/sound designers/community managers... it's very definitely not a single person working on this game. I'm currently watching a stream where two of the people working on the game (neither of which are Schema) are showing off their design process for one of the NPC stations.

There was for the first few years, but since 2015** it's been a multi-person team.

*Edit: You can see how big the team is here.

**Second edit: I might be wrong on that, not sure of the actual timeline, but it's definitely not just one person working on this.

 

[Jebediah1]

pls no more players.

Let the game die already