Planned Starmade as an Astronaut

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    If i would have free reign over designing the system for creating handheld weapons i would divide it into two:

    Utility parts, here we're talking the likes of sights, barrels and other functional and/or mechanical parts, even receivers and fire control groups if you want that level of detail, they would be limited in how they can be changed, you could for example not make a barrel have a too thin wall and such. having the construction of PDW's as a complex system would give reason for presumably weaker energy weapons as they would be incredibly simple. Each of these parts would be pre-designed and could have "neat" features due to the way that particular part is limited, for example a barrel could very well not follow the blocky theme as the only thing you really can change on it is diameter and lenght.

    Cosmetic and Design parts, this is where you make your stock, hand guard, reciver box and every thing else, grips and pistol grips would fall in here as they're not so complex after all, these would have stat impacts regarding mobility, aiming inertia and recoil/movement inertia and control (A neat grip in the right place could help with the first two for example, and a butt stock would help a lot with recoil and as a counter weight when you're in gravity)
     
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    I posted this in another thread recently, but want it to be in the more appropriate location as well.

    Astronaut mode will be more popular/useful/necessary if there are items which can only be gathered/harvested by astronauts, or actions that can only be performed in astronaut mode.

    Rationale:
    Salvage cannons are high-energy. They aren't powerful enough to damage a ship, but could probably burn a mushroom or leaves. As such they shouldn't be able to harvest plants, wood, leaves, mushrooms, fungus, etc. They are 'salvage' cannons, not 'harvest' beams.

    Similarly, volatile ores and crystals should be handled with more delicate tools. Harvesting a 'pyrotechnic shard' with a salvage beam only gives you raw carbon, but harvesting by hand will give you the ore. Similarly with warheads and bombs - they can only be placed and picked up by hand otherwise they might explode.

    Creatures/aliens/robots/other astronauts only drop items when killed by an astronaut. Getting hit by an AMC vaporizes the body, equipment, and anything that might have been dropped. Dying because of a sword or laser rifle doesn't damage the goods as badly.

    Weapon computers and scanners can't track individual creatures. This makes ship-vs-creature combat very difficult. Additionally, ship weapons won't do any good once a creature/enemy is inside the ship damaging electronics.

    Suggested implementation:
    Astronauts need food to keep their hunger sated.
    Astronauts need medicine to keep healthy.
    Astronauts need clothing to protect from temperatures and radiation exposure (from ship cores/ion engines/nuclear power reactors/direct starlight)
    Astronauts need armor/weapons to protect from creatures, robots, aliens, disease, radiation, temperature, and combat.
    Astronauts need furniture (bed, chair, table, bath, art) to keep their morale/psyche/sanity in a healthy state.
    Astronauts perform diplomacy with NPC's to gather crews.
    Performing actions that increase skills that give bonuses when piloting a ship (this depends on how RPG the game becomes)

    So in a way similar to how ships progress, Astronaut equipment will gather goods that are used to make more/better astronaut equipment. Kill a creature, harvest the proteins and bio-matter, make a better weapon, kill a bigger creature. The resources gathered this way can be as variable as the types of creatures and plants (protein based, metal based, gas based, radiation based, ooze/liquid based, transdimensional, robotic).
     
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    I had an idea when posting elsewhere: pollution on planets.

    When the core of a planet is exposed it will completely altar the planet's atmosphere, climate, temperature, and magnetic fields (which in turn ruin electronics and allow solar radiation into the atmosphere).

    Though the mechanics could be super complicated, here's what I'm going for right now: astronauts need suits to survive in certain conditions - exposure to extreme temperatures, space vacuum, radiation, etc. So, the degree of danger a planet poses will change as more and more of the core is exposed (and this affects all face-plates). This can be quickly calculated as the % of blocks the planet has lost.

    This would then allow mechanics for terraforming. Invest all the extra stone/dirt/ice you have from mining into forcing a planet's face to generate anew (but without ores). Alternatively, leave the planet a hazardous death trap and collect toxins, pollutants, and acids to craft traps for creatures/astronauts.
     

    jayman38

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    I had an idea when posting elsewhere: pollution on planets.

    When the core of a planet is exposed it will completely altar the planet's atmosphere, climate, temperature, and magnetic fields (which in turn ruin electronics and allow solar radiation into the atmosphere).

    Though the mechanics could be super complicated, here's what I'm going for right now: astronauts need suits to survive in certain conditions - exposure to extreme temperatures, space vacuum, radiation, etc. So, the degree of danger a planet poses will change as more and more of the core is exposed (and this affects all face-plates). This can be quickly calculated as the % of blocks the planet has lost.

    This would then allow mechanics for terraforming. Invest all the extra stone/dirt/ice you have from mining into forcing a planet's face to generate anew (but without ores). Alternatively, leave the planet a hazardous death trap and collect toxins, pollutants, and acids to craft traps for creatures/astronauts.
    Astronaut mutation ftw! :schema:
     

    Valiant70

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    Hmm, pointing again at Cubeworld as the other extreme, you might have a variety of weapon models on which you could place some blocks to customize it. Several sections of these, combined to form a single weapon, along with allowing up to 1 or two layers of blocks to be attached onto the base peice at any point, and you start having a fairly flexible system that avoids the "doomcube" or "phalic" weapon styles.
    Some premade parts (such as grip/handle configurations) would be necessary for astronaut animations to work right. Honestly, that's about the only part that needs to be premade for us. Any game with blocks is going to have stupid 10-year-olds making man parts out of them. I wouldn't worry about that since it's already possible with ships.

    What I would do to prevent "doom cube" weapons is make the cosmetics separate from the function. The process might look like this:
    • Select a hand grip style (rifle, pistol, arm-mounted, chainsaw grip, etc.).
    • Construct a cosmetic skin for the gun out of little blocks.
    • Open a build mode-like interface that displays a certain cuboid volume for you to cram things into. Install your gun's guts.
      • This size is based on the boxdims of the weapon - not its shape or appearance!
      • This way you get an idea of a gun's potential potency from its size, but being pretty does not change its function.
    • Close the interface.
      • The game now calculates the weapon's inertia from the weight of the stuff you put inside.
      • The boxdims of the cosmetic gun still don't matter. You can make a gun look big and scary even if it's weak, but you can't be surprised by a massive cannon that looks like a pocket pistol.
    Doom cubes for all! Only they don't look like doom cubes...
     
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    Do you think a hybrid of both would work out? Voxel for the base shape itself with many different looking blocks, and modular meta items that are used in slots/expansion slots that effect stats and can be modified at a work bench or something? Maybe the meta items can have restrictions, like a long powerful rifle barrel requiring a certain dimension of length in the gun? Gun dimensions themselves like The_Onion said effecting things like long guns having heavy recoil, more massive guns decreasing running speed, etc. That way guns can look different and have different stats for different roles, but it stops a tiny block from being a BFG in stats. Just throwing ideas out there.
    The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. Using meta items to change the functionality of weapons would add a good deal of customization, while giving the devs an easier way to balance the system. All without restricting the looks of these weapons. Add to that a tier based rarity system for the items, and now people have an incentive for exploring the universe.
     
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    Valiant70 I like your suggestions and would be happy with it being implemented. However, I think it can still be improved.

    I think that you've missed something when you said:

    Some premade parts (such as grip/handle configurations) would be necessary for astronaut animations to work right
    Consider what a running animation with gun in hand would look like if we used a pre-made handle and put on it a 100x100x1 block of cubes. Parts of the gun would clip through the character's chest as their arm moved. In order for the animation to look correct the items placed by the player have to have a dimension limit as well. But then, as Valiant70 and Calbiri said we get doom cubes.

    I think the best way around that is to instead impose a hard limit on blocks for these items. A pistol can have 50 blocks within a 20x20x20 area that is mounted to the pre-made pistol handle, a rifle can have 75 blocks in a 40x20x20 area mounted to the pre-made rifle handle, etc. This means that a min-maxed weapon won't be able to completely fill the area, and that no matter the design the weapon won't be clipping through the character during animations.

    Though Schema has said he wants the game to be as scalable as possible, armor and personal weapons can't follow in this pursuit. Astronauts simply can't carry around swords the size of space stations that deal enough damage to crack a planet.

    I think I am clear in saying that I want to go with voxel-based weapons more than pre-made parts being assembled together.
     

    Lecic

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    Valiant70 I like your suggestions and would be happy with it being implemented. However, I think it can still be improved.

    I think that you've missed something when you said:



    Consider what a running animation with gun in hand would look like if we used a pre-made handle and put on it a 100x100x1 block of cubes. Parts of the gun would clip through the character's chest as their arm moved. In order for the animation to look correct the items placed by the player have to have a dimension limit as well. But then, as Valiant70 and Calbiri said we get doom cubes.

    I think the best way around that is to instead impose a hard limit on blocks for these items. A pistol can have 50 blocks within a 20x20x20 area that is mounted to the pre-made pistol handle, a rifle can have 75 blocks in a 40x20x20 area mounted to the pre-made rifle handle, etc. This means that a min-maxed weapon won't be able to completely fill the area, and that no matter the design the weapon won't be clipping through the character during animations.

    Though Schema has said he wants the game to be as scalable as possible, armor and personal weapons can't follow in this pursuit. Astronauts simply can't carry around swords the size of space stations that deal enough damage to crack a planet.

    I think I am clear in saying that I want to go with voxel-based weapons more than pre-made parts being assembled together.
    Did you read the part where Valiant70 says the voxel weapon doesn't effect stats, just what stat-based modules you can put on the gun based on its dimensions?
     

    Valiant70

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    Valiant70 I like your suggestions and would be happy with it being implemented. However, I think it can still be improved.

    I think that you've missed something when you said:



    Consider what a running animation with gun in hand would look like if we used a pre-made handle and put on it a 100x100x1 block of cubes. Parts of the gun would clip through the character's chest as their arm moved. In order for the animation to look correct the items placed by the player have to have a dimension limit as well. But then, as Valiant70 and Calbiri said we get doom cubes.

    I think the best way around that is to instead impose a hard limit on blocks for these items. A pistol can have 50 blocks within a 20x20x20 area that is mounted to the pre-made pistol handle, a rifle can have 75 blocks in a 40x20x20 area mounted to the pre-made rifle handle, etc. This means that a min-maxed weapon won't be able to completely fill the area, and that no matter the design the weapon won't be clipping through the character during animations.

    Though Schema has said he wants the game to be as scalable as possible, armor and personal weapons can't follow in this pursuit. Astronauts simply can't carry around swords the size of space stations that deal enough damage to crack a planet.

    I think I am clear in saying that I want to go with voxel-based weapons more than pre-made parts being assembled together.
    I think you skipped reading most of the post you're quoting. The need for limits on each axis is kind of obvious, but number of blocks shouldn't be an issue.
     
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    Did you read the part where Valiant70 says the voxel weapon doesn't effect stats, just what stat-based modules you can put on the gun based on its dimensions?

    I really like the whole thread idea, so a big +10,000 for bringing up.

    About the whole problem with the weapons and how they should be able to be built, I have an idea:


    You want to make a pistol? Build the proper parts: Grip, Barrel, Receiver. Have different types of each that can built to complement a play style. One type of barrel increases range, increases recoil..that sort of thing.
    Now all this is made into a frame with stats from what parts were used. Another block, a gunsmith block or something could be used to 'build' the actual pistol you'll use. Have a max amount of blocks varying on what type of weapon is used.

    Now we have usable, balanced weapons, without having everyone look the same.

    //Typing this out I realize I agree with the one poster who basically said this, but I just wanted to reiterate my standing.


    This would mean though -limits- Which is going to be necessary. We don't need what was brought up, a chain gun firing 10,000 RPM dealing 10,000 damage to anythings it hits. It will cut into the creativity sure, but that's something that's neccessary to stop borg cube guns from being made.

    If it's not balanced, it's not going to be fun.

    If it's not fun, who's going to bother going FPS mode at all? No one wants to be boarding a ship and just get decimated from a broken system instead of failing because they were out played tactically.
     
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    Did you read the part where Valiant70 says the voxel weapon doesn't effect stats, just what stat-based modules you can put on the gun based on its dimensions?
    I did read it. The point of my post was this:

    If blocks affect weapon stats, and weapons have limited dimensions but not a mass limit THEN players build doom cubes to maximize stats. This is the the basis of the argument that blocks for the gun shouldn't affect stats because min-maxing always has the same shape.

    HOWEVER, if weapons have a limited number of blocks/mass and a limited dimension then min-maxing won't be able to make a doom cube and we can allow weapon blocks to affect weapon stats without worrying about doom-cubes.

    I would be happy with Valiant70 's suggestion on keeping design separate from stats, but I want to put out there that there is this alternative. Starmade's build mode is centered around the connection between design and function, and I think my suggestion better preserves that approach.

    I'm apologize if my earlier post was not clear.
     
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    Question: Now that we have rails, how will that play into hand-held weapons?

    If we separate the functional and cosmetic aspects of the weapons (voxelized) as someone mentioned earlier, I could see all sorts of crazy gun mechanics.

    Mass Effect-esque expanding guns anyone?
     
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    NOTICE: Please do not argue unless you have read this entire post. It ticks me off to no end. (You can skip spoilers.)

    I believe the development of rich personal combat mechanics will greatly increase the success and depth of Starmade. Why? With good mechanics, Starmade could be marketed partially as a first person shooter. This would provide the game with the commandos for boarding parties and planetary assaults. Here I'd like to discuss some ideas for personal combat in general, and a few weapons in particular.

    Such a vast makeover of the astronaut experience will likely be far down the road after the game solidifies to the point where this content will become more relevant. I'm not expecting you to merge Minecraft and Destiny, mind you, but I (and I assume many others) would love to see a fully fleshed-out feature set for personal movement, survival, and combat. This is an initial discussion of potential far-future content.

    Initial concerns
    There are a number of issues with the current game that make Starmade a really, really bad FPS. Theses should be solved first and foremost.

    1. "LAAAAAAAG!" screamed the noob as he was blown apart by a latent missile blast
    Server lag will destroy personal combat. Even a little bit of lag can mean the difference in a fight, so this must be minimized. As such, personal weapons, damage, etc. must receive the highest priority in the game engine, being the first thing calculated, transmitted over the network, etc. I cannot stress the importance of this priority enough. If ships lag, bug out, etc, but gunfights still rage with low latency in the hallways of a crippled titan, Schema's doing it right.

    2. Proper personal equipment groundwork
    The sorry state of the helmet shows just how much needs to be done. We need proper equipment slots outside of the inventory. Putting your helmet on-off-on-off-on-wut-wut-wut by mousing over it is no good. I'm sure Shema knows better than to do body armor this way. A number of possible systems have been suggested elsewhere, but some of the features I'd like to see are armor, shielding, stealth, and extra suit boosters. Ideally, equipment should be modular. Balancing these features is probably beyond the scope of this thread, as you could write several pages on that alone.
    Edit:Lecic has some good ideas for this.

    3. Relevance of personal combat
    Currently planetary combat is practically limited to orbital bombardment and boarding actions require several suppression ships fitted with ion, EMP, and stop weapons to pin down a ship with its shields lowered while a boarding party gets in. There have been a lot of suggestions both for planets and ships in this respect, and I'd rather not complicate this discussion by going into details. Suffice it to say this is a prerequisite to the rest of the content in this thread, but is beyond the scope of this thread.

    Edit: 4. Better first-person graphics/characterizations/immersion
    Crimson-Artist mentioned this as well. I'd like to see my hands, tools, and weapons in first person. If I have a gun out, it's a lot more immersing to see it at the bottom of the screen. Without something along these lines, something just doesn't feel right.

    Improvements
    These are things that I think need to be added to the game to enrich everything that happens while you're not at the controls of a space ship.

    Personal movement
    The current movement is kind of... bland. I mean, typical slow-ish run, slower walk, and 5 meter jump. Here are some good additions:
    • Crouch/dive for cover/crawl. One key. Hold to crouch, use movement while to lie down and crawl, crouch while airborne to dive to a prone position.
    • Dodging and/or rolling (could use the same keys as ship roll by default).
    • Proper flight when not in gravity or grappled to a ship. Controls identical to ship core, flight characteristics similar or identical. Perhaps the thrusters would be weaker to keep you from flying off a planet without a core.
    • Reduce the ridiculously high 5-meter jump to 3 meters and add a ledge-grab that triggers automatically. Can ledge-grab farther ahead by using the dive-for-cover function.
    • Swimming (With proper animations mind you! None of that Minecraft ninja-walking on the surface junk.) Use movement controls to move around underwater similar to space but with a maximum speed of 5 m/sec. Use align control to stick yourself down and walk on the bottom.
    • A ranged grapple as suggested by Crimson-Artist. This could be built into a suit by default or be a piece of equipment.
    These additional forms of movement will add immersion and fun to moving around the environment and fighting, as well as allowing things to happen that couldn't before.

    Better weapon selection
    While not critical, it might be nice to have one or two "holster" equipment slots with keys dedicated to draw/holster the items in them. When a holster item is drawn, the hotbar selection is overridden and the bar fades out. This allows for quick-draw weapons fire, etc. Weapons may still be placed on the hotbar. You would most likely use a sidearm and a melee weapon in your holster slots, as these would need to be accessed the fastest. As far as I know, this would be a feature unique to Starmade.

    Edit: Where are my feet?
    I'd like to see Starmade do something few other games do and let me actually look down and see my feet. This may seem trivial, but I believe such a feature would give Starmade better-than-average immersion in first person. Looking down while trying to stand as close as possible to a ledge and then wondering where my feet are has always been immersion-breaking for me. In that case seeing my feet would be useful as well as fun.

    Melee Combat

    First, a dedicated melee weapon. The last thing we need is another boring, half-booty melee weapon like a Minecraft sword. Let's do something more spicy. People argue over what it should be, but for the sake of this discussion, we'll assume the weapon is blade-like; can stab, slash and block; and is held in the hand or mounted to the forearm of one's suit.

    I'd personally like to see a retractable wrist bayonet, but that's just me... Ignore that! On with the discussion.

    Functions:
    • Stab: quickly tap and release primary fire - powerful single-target attack directly in front of you. Same power as sniper rifle. Also good for wrecking blocks.
    • Slash: hold primary fire and sweep the crosshair slightly to the side. Character makes a 180* swing in the direction of the mouse movement. (can be any angle from vertical to diagonal). Damages all entities it contacts. About half as powerful as a stab.
    • Block: Click to block a stab (stabs are hard to block in real life!) or hold to block slashes.
    Second, some guns (particularly rifles) should have a block function so that gunmen aren't entirely vulnerable to melee weapons, giving a chance to block an attack and shoot point-blank or draw one's melee weapon. This block could be made weaker than a melee weapon block somehow, like having a shorter window for deflecting a stab.

    I'll probably add more stuff to this later, depending on my own thoughts and the feedback I get.
    Also survival systems like food/drinking/oxygen would make player more feel like astronaut than ship.
     
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    I'd personally like to see a retractable wrist bayonet,

    is this more along the lines of what you were thinking?
    I'm not sure which idea I like better - equipment that breaks away in voxels as each voxel is damaged (so that holes in armor mean almost nothing), or equipment that breaks away random voxels as it takes damage but is 100% useful until 100% destroyed, or equipment that is 100% present until 100% destroyed with no voxel breaks at all.
    I would vote breakable armor, although it would be more resource extensive, so the inevitable 5cm/h juggernaut (assuming armor slows you down) can be beaten by punching a hole in his armor.
    Maybe the game could be coded to pass shields over aligned astronauts, so they are effectively under the shield and can affect the aligned-to ship directly. Effectively, once an asteroid attaches magboots to the ship's skin, the shield goes around the astronaut's suit. Otherwise, there's no real way to determine "inside" the ship versus "outside", especially after the hull has been ripped to shreds by naval-grade weapons fire.
    the main downsides to this are that this allows people to align to a ship while on the outside of the hull, where the shield should help, and it prevents people from using magboots to attach to the walls and ceiling of a ship.

    also, I vote modular weapons (simply because I would be driven mad by the lack of aesthetics) but build/designable armor, just with specific areas where the armor can't be placed. armor could also be where people add effects, like for a jet pack, add thrusters to the suit, etc. it could possibly even allow suicide bombers (a suit made entirely out of dis-integrators [or whatever they're called now, its been a while since I played] could have so much destructive potential...)

    off-topic- trying to type this on a phone will cause rage.
     
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    Something Semi-related to this, I have always liked the idea of building space prisons. with Plex Binds you can "arrest", i.e., kidnap, another player and put them up for ransom for their faction. the bound player can do limited things, but can escape binds if they, erm, can figure out a ten digit code... or something... maybe...
    [DOUBLEPOST=1450480816,1450479470][/DOUBLEPOST]Reading the first post, and seeing the section on melee weapons, I immediately thought of a Klingon Bat'leth:



    Tell me with a straight face that seeing an enemy running at you with one of these wouldn't be awesome and terrifying.
     

    Lecic

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    Tell me with a straight face that seeing an enemy running at you with one of these wouldn't be awesome and terrifying.
    Terrifyingly stupid, more like. Those are horrible weapons.
     
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    Imagine if Tuvac was an angry Klingon in this scene:
     

    Lecic

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    "We can make anything look like a practical weapon when it's on a TV show!"
     
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    Something Semi-related to this, I have always liked the idea of building space prisons. with Plex Binds you can "arrest", i.e., kidnap, another player and put them up for ransom for their faction. the bound player can do limited things, but can escape binds if they, erm, can figure out a ten digit code... or something... maybe...
    If you do this, the bound player can't play until further notice. And you don't want that.
    I would suggest a captured player "respawns" as a default NPC for the faction. No ship building, no special/improved stats. They can, however, attempt to rescue the captured player (possibly with other players). Once the captive makes it to a faction base, the NPC despawns.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1450579287,1450578931][/DOUBLEPOST]
    Open a build mode-like interface that displays a certain cuboid volume for you to cram things into. Install your gun's guts.
    Would this even be needed? Wouldn't the player jut need to deposit X primary weapon modules, Y secondary weapon modules, and maybe Z effect modules, then determine the output location(s)?