Space battles should be more epic

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    That\'s great stuff, they have solar sails too (already working!) which can propell satellites with solar radiation just like a wind sail. Indefinite fuel right there already.

    However. Fuel gives something to fight about. I mean what is really the point of doing anything in StarMade? Once you have your favorite ship, why do anything else? Why even build it in the first place? There\'s no need to go anywhere or do anything if you have infinite power - you could stay docked in your faction home forever and never need anything.

    But, if people are out fighting anyway, there will at least be strategic elements to fight over - fuel supplies. You now have a reason to control certain parts of space aside from randomly being there. You now have a reason to patrol, you now have a reason to possibly use smaller ships for scouting. Since if people are fighting all the time, then they\'re using fuel all the time, and you have something to locate, produce and control, because eventually they have to get more of it.
     
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    • Legacy Citizen 2
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    How about we have a system where blowing up the core doesn\'t matter in combat? You can still control the ship even if the core gets destroyed. If the core is destroyed, it vanishes until the player exits the ship. In order to get the core overheating and make the ship salvagable, you must destroy half of the power or thrust blocks on the ship. AIs and seekers would target random blocks on the surface of the ship.
     
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    Might be interesting but with my ships you\'d only get half a ship to salvage since I put power and thrusters everywhere lol.

    On some of my ships the thrusters are in the back so I can have an engine room, but on a serious ship I would never do that, they\'d be all over the place snaking through the entire ship like my power usually is. No point in consolidating it to have it get blow\'d up.
     
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    You would be fighting back all the way, right? As opposed to your shields going down and getting drilled, now your shields go down and they target everything, meaning you have time to kill them, or bail out and activate and AI while you flee the battlefield, or wait for reinforcements., or something besides respawning and cursing.
     
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    Just saying I have been looking at the posts on this discussion and I have a salution to some(like the carrier). Some one on the post make a server that has very strict rules about ships(shot guns,death cubes etc.) And it would make a fun role playing enviroment.

    Hey just an idea.
     
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    I suppose but I think I would get bored before anything good happens. I find long battles to be tedious.

    If the same rules apply to the enemy then neither of us will have much of a ship left worth saving. So unless I\'m defending something for a reason I\'d probably leave it unless I can see that I\'m still going to win. Also would rather respawn than flee because it\'s faster, and the only time I curse is when it\'s stopped me from doing something else I wanted to do.
     
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    As has been suggested before, the targeting diamond should surround the entire ship, not just the core. Doing this would make sniping the core much more difficult.

    But how about a sensor system? Sensors would be modules that are incredibly expensive to run, but they show key systems on enemy ships such as clusters of shields, power storage, AMCs, etc and maybe even the location of the core. The results of these sensors would be broadcast to all nearby friendly ships (let\'s say faction ships and faction ally ships).. As I said before, they\'d be horrendously expensive to run (not based on the number of blocks in a ship like cloakers or jammers, but each sensor module would have a set power drain, let\'s say 400K/s) meaning that ships housing sensors would be specialised to do just that. This means that in a fleet engagement the side that has a sensor ship will have an advantage over the side that doesn\'t. It also adds an important target as taking out the sensor ships would mean that the opposing fleet would be effectively blind.

    And why not make it so sensors provide an increased navigation menu range so they can be used for scouting and early-warnings.

    Of course this isn\'t a real solution to many of the problems already listed, but it\'d add a new element of gameplay.
     

    MrFURB

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    Alright folks, it looks like I finally have some spare time, so I\'m going to continue where I left off with concern #2 on my list here: http://star-made.org/comment/76722#comment-76722


    2. There is a major lack of rock/paper/scissors action going on. Currently, fights are rock vs. rock with the harder rock winning. Not healthy for variance of playstyle at all.


    This is mainly a content/balance issue and as such there isn\'t a quick fix for it that doesn\'t require a lot of updates from Schema, so it\'s a problem that may take a little while to deal with. This issue stems from there being ONE optimal way to do something in any given situation.

    Need a weapon? AMCs. B-but what about missi- No. AMCs. That\'s it.

    Similar are the arguments of shields/hull/cloak and small/mid/large sized ships. Other ways of doing something exist in the game, but aren\'t a worthwhile investment of your valuable mass and money.

    Likewise, in order to counter someone with a lot of AMCs and shields, there are a lot of options given to you... But the most convenient is always MORE Shields and MORE AMCs. I\'d like that to change. Want a missile boat that can make an enemy simply disappear? Go for it. Want a ship that\'s primary purpose is to siphon energy away from the enemy, rendering him helpless? Go for it!

    Here I\'ll post a set of brainstormed changes to game mechanics or numbers in an attempt to add a fair bit of variance in combat engagements:

    Shields: Add an additional base 50 shields per shield block on a ship. Leave regeneration values as-is.

    This is a rather big change for larger ships. I feel that large ship combat is done in different phases, being shield, hull, and internal. The shield phase is the most important, as it\'s the only phase that provides a complete omni-directional and non-leak-through barrier to damage. Therefor, giving large shield arrays more oomph in a way that doesn\'t affect the diminishing returns is a good way of making sure large ships are capable of defensively dragging a fight out for more than ten seconds without taking irreparable damage. This change becomes worth less as you have fewer shields (Which are more efficient in the first place) so it doesn\'t mess with the already decently long combat times of smaller vessels.

    Hull: Remove armor rating from hulls. Normal hulls have 400 HP and can take up to 100 damage per hit. Hardened hulls have 800 HP and take up to 100 damage per hit.

    Reduce the price of normal hulls to be a tier above common blocks (ten credits each) and hardened hulls to be a tier above that (100 credits each).

    This change gives hull a true purpose and specialty but doesn\'t ruin their effectiveness as decorative blocks... In fact, it enhances it.

    Instead of remaining a secondary HP based barrier to shields, which are infinitely more useful and versatile, hull now protects in a different way by truly absorbing the shock of multiple attacks before finally giving away from repeated abuse.

    Hitting a shield with a massive AMC will shred it. Hitting armor with it will only deal 100 damage, requiring four precise hits on that single armor block to get rid of it and hit what is behind it. For 10 credits, that\'s not bad at all. For a premium you can double the length your armor protects you via hardened hull. Both the normal and hardened hull are cheap enough to make realistic use of, even in a stretched economy, although hardened hull will begin to milk your pockets dry if you are placing them with jazz hands.

    The downside to hull is that they are a 1-time use deterrent to damage, whereas shields will regen over and over again. A good array of missiles will not only damage large swathes of hull plating, but will also immediately rip apart whatever is behind the hull as damage leaks through, making missile arrays an effective counter to the per hit protections hull provides.

    It\'s best to think of using hull as turning an enemy shot into 2.5 credits.

    Stealth (Both visual and radar): Cloaking will be ineffective against targets closer than 400 meters. Radar jamming will be ineffective against targets closer than 200 meters. Both effects are combined into a single system with an energy cost of 125 energy per block per second.

    Right now cloaking is too effective when it is useable, and completely ineffective when it isn\'t. As the most involved way to avoid having your ship blown apart, true stealth (both cloaking and radar jamming at the same time) takes a bit too much specialization, even from smaller craft. Radar jamming, however, is something achievable by most small and medium sized vessels, and is just as useful as cloaking under certain circumstances. By evening the gap of accessibility and power between the two options by combining their effects we solve both the problem of stealth relying on radar jamming to be useful and the problem of every warship under a certain size being able to radar jam (which is a huge deal, considering you can only pay attention to 1/6th of your surroundings at a time) without being designed to.

    A small reduction in the energy upkeep of achieving \'true stealth\' rounds out the changes by ensuring that stealth craft can mount enough other modules to be able to suit a purpose reliably.

    Weapons that can quickly output a lot of damage will chew through shielding. Weapons that can damage multiple blocks will chew through hull. Quick reaction time and diligent chasing will disable stealth.

    Antimatter Cannons: Add a tiny cone of fire, only noticeable at greater than ~500 meters. For every block in an AMC array, add a 0.1% reload rate multiplier and a 0.2% damage multiplier.

    It is almost universally agreed that drilling to objectives in combat is currently too easy. A tiny cone of fire will make sure that drilling is much more difficult at longer ranges, even against an immobile target.

    As for the reload speed and damage changes, those are basically intensifying the last changes to AMCs. Slower reload speed the larger you get, but more damage to counteract that. Super-massive AMC arrays will act like real artillery with noticeable refire times and may sometimes miss but will reward hits with an insane amount of damage to shielding.

    Missiles: Increase base reload rate of small missiles. Increase radius of all guided missiles by 50%. Increase radius of dumbfire missiles by 100%. Increase average speed of all guided missiles to 100% of server.cfg max speed setting. Increase average speed of all unguided missiles to 200% of the server.cfg max speed setting.



    Alright, these are some pretty big changes, but the idea behind them is simple.

    I believe that the current missile radius is in fact in error, as it was said in the update when missiles were last changed (back when you could literally delete a planet with a deathstar worth of missile blocks) that the damage will now calculate on different phases, with each successive phase having a different radius and damage only having limited breakthrough, so that a missile impacting against a wall will leave more of a dent-ish crater than a semi-circle crater. I believe that right now only the first phase of damage is being calculated.

    The accuracy on missiles is pitiful because their speed doesn\'t scale up with the speed of their environment. Play on a server with a max speed of 50 and missiles will be far more reliable than a server where the max speed is 75 or 100.

    Utility: Between the beams, pulsators, AI, and dis-integrators, I think I\'m going to need a second post to think this one through. I\'ll be back with more tomorrow, but go ahead and fill me in on your opinions of the states problems and solutions, as I don\'t regularly post my brainstorming.
     
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    I fully agree on every point. Multiple cores per ship would be a lot better than nerfing AMC\'s because you can still drill a 1x1 hole and destroy the entire ship that way although it may take a little longer. With multiple cores you at least have to drill more than one 1x1 hole. I do agree though AMC\'s need to be nerfed a bit, and carriers definately need better functionality with their fighters/bombers. A good way could be a marker block to mark the paths specific fighter/bomber craft should take while inside the ship so when they get called back for repairs and such they don\'t collide into stuff and that way they could return back to their individual hanger spot.
     
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    It\'s just like in a typical fantasy game -- take out the healers first, so the rest of the enemy has no fallback support option. Unless it also has the offensive capabilities of a non-carrier ship of its size, a carrier becomes a huge target as soon as an opponent realizes what it is.
     
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    ~~now then I am going to ask you to defend yourself, in any instance of any movie or game you have played or watched has a handfull of fighters not been usefull against a capital class ship in a sci-fi or space genre? Because thats what this looks like its based off of.




    I\'m sorry, but fiction isn\'t a good platform to argue game mechanics. (For that matter, neither are WW2 references, as the variables of each setting are completely different.) The game needs to be balanced, providing ships of all sizes an option for sustainable gameplay -- but also providing limits to their effectiveness.

    If a couple of 100 mass fighters can destroy a 500,000 mass ship with the same effectiveness as another 500,000 mass ship, then there would be little point in building a 500,000 mass ship -- just make 5,000 of those 100 mass fighters and go to town with em!

    While I\'d love to zip out in a Valverave and slice capital ships apart with a single volley, that would only result in every single player in the game using nothing but a Valverave. To do otherwise would essentially be saying \"Hey, come blow me up.\" Because if fighter-sized craft are balanced to be just as effective against titan-sized craft as another titan, then there will be little point in spending weeks building a titan -- just take five minutes to build a fighter and BAM, you\'re a galactic superpower.

    Here are a few of the requested movie references to illustrate:

    Star Trek - the Mars Defense Perimeter, a group of small runabout-sized vessels, lasted all of 2 seconds when the Borg first attacked Earth. In another episode, Picard and Riker literally laughed at an attack upon the Enterprise by a group of small fighter craft during a standoff with a beligerant planet (the fighter\'s weapons were completely ineffective against the Enterprise\'s shields). In multiple episodes, the Defiant (more of a frigate-size than fighter-size, but still an apt refrence) was completely outclassed and overwhelmed by larger ships. For that matter, the Enterprise D and E was outclassed by several Romulan and Klingon vessels that were considerably larger and more powerful.

    Star Wars - X-Wings were dying like fodder while attacking the Death Star. Only a pilot with the mystical Force was able to manipulate reality to allow a torpedo to hook into a poorly designed and placed ventilation shaft. Most of the non-Jedi pilots who accompanied him were shot down. If any pilot could have done it in an X-Wing, the Death Star would have been destroyed before it even got within firing range of Alderan.

    Skyline - the US Air Force was blown out of the sky before they were even in missile range.

    Independence Day - fighters and bombers were 100% ineffective against the alien\'s shields until a virus was used to completely disable them. Even then, missiles weren\'t delivering sufficient damage and an overload of the ship\'s primary weapon was required. Until StarMade has an ingame hacking/virus delivery system, there would be no way to force a ship\'s shields to drop.

    EVE Online - let\'s swap to an online game reference for a moment, as it is far more appropriate as a reference than a work of fiction. In EVE smaller vessels require more time for an enemy to gain a weapons lock. But, once locked, a larger vessel can take them out with a single shot. This allows them to function just as many people push for here, as harassment fighters to distract pilots and AI weapons while larger ships delivered the big blows. But in all the time I spent playing EVE, I never heard of a group of small fighter craft taking down a large capital ship by themselves.

    An EVE-style size-based weapons-lock delay is the best and most balanced option for StarMade to give small craft an opportunity to engage larger craft -- but it\'s still little more than a stalling strategy, as the smaller craft will not have sufficient DPS to overcome the large ships\' shield regeneration.

    The thing to keep in mind with every single one of those movie references is that the writers control all the variables. If the writer wants a lone X-Wing to take out a Death Star behemoth or a single Valverave to decimate an entire Dorissian fleet, then that\'s what\'s going to happen. There is no gameplay mechanic for that in ANY multiplayer game, other than the use of godmode.

    (And, for a little reference on my playstyle, my current project is just a smidge over 20k mass and is my largest build to date (I just don\'t have the time or the patience to build a titan :P). Most of the ships I have designed are between 200-2k mass. And no, I don\'t think my 200 mass ship has or even SHOULD have a snowballs chance against a 200k mass ship... and while it may put some dings in the shields of the 20k mass ship, it wouldn\'t fare much better there either.)



    TL/DR: Movies use plot devices, games use mechanics. The two are not the same. Balance AND limits are needed in a game or everyone will follow the path of least resistance and fly the same ship as everyone else.
     
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    EvE ship sizes are much more diferentiated than simply lock times. Small ships are faster, accelerate far better, and have smaller signatures, which makes weapons from larger ships have more issues hitting them. The same mechanic that makes them harder to lock also makes them harder to hit with larger weapons. While any reasonably sized group of frigates will never take out a titan through it\'s unenhanced base shield regen, the fight would be a stalemate as the hit formulas for weapons result in the titan\'s guns laughing at the pilot for even trying without ample support to litterally hold them in place and magnify their signature several times over.

    In many cases there are probably lessons we can take based upon the idea of big guns don\'t hit small targets well. AI\'s could prioritize larger vessels or priotitize in relation to their output. reload could be reworked to favor smaller AMC\'s. This would make larger, more damaging turrets have more devastating individual shots, but have less of a spray of fire giving ships with small profiles and better agility an easier time dodging.
     
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    Only a pilot with the mystical Force was able to manipulate reality to allow a torpedo to hook into a poorly designed and placed ventilation shaft.


    When those torpedoes hooked, it was for the audience to understand they went down the shaft. He didn\'t use the force. They didn\'t even hit the core directly, they caused a chain reaction.


    If a couple of 100 mass fighters can destroy a 500,000 mass ship with the same effectiveness as another 500,000 mass ship, then there would be little point in building a 500,000 mass ship


    True, but it would take more fighters than a couple. At least a few hundred to take down a 500,000 mass ship. But a 500,000 mass ship is sort of hard to come by/make. A more reasonable sized example would be 100 fighters taking down a 10,000 mass ship.
     
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    a 10k mass ship isnt even that big. i\'d expect a small squadron of bombers to be able to overcome something that small unless it was specialized with anti-fighter weaponry
     
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    Yeah, I oversimplified a bit, as a deeper explanation would have made that wordy post even twice as long =P EVE had a very nice, but often complex, system in place to keep ships balanced and effective, regardless of their size. A game like StarMade could (and should imho) take some cues from a game such as EVE, but there\'s no need to mimic it exactly since StarMade is a much simpler game.
     
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    When those torpedoes hooked, it was for the audience to understand they went down the shaft. He didn\'t use the force. They didn\'t even hit the core directly, they caused a chain reaction.


    It\'s still a plot device, the result of a writer forcing a specific outcome in his script. The torpedo hitting the shaft was not a result of Luke\'s skill as a pilot or the size or quality of his ship or even because of the Force -- it hit because the writer wanted it to hit. The destruction of the Death Star was not the result of a powerful weapon or a well-placed shot -- it was the result of a writer deciding how and when the Death Star would explode.

    My point still stands: movies are not valid references when discussing game mechanics because they do not follow the same rules. There is no way to replicate the conditions of that movie in a multiplayer game without making gameplay completely unrealistic and unpredictable and/or giving every player godmode.
     
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    The only way I can think of to nerf shotguns without harming other AMC builds is to make AMCs disable unconnected AMCs on the diagonals. Shotguns would then need to be far more spaced out and thus less attractive.
     
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    I reckon that the core diamond should not be on the actual core and it just encompasses the entire ship.