Shields and turrets

    DrTarDIS

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    Invisible blocks do not absorb projectiles or beams, FYI. Open plex doors are not a viable shield. :)
    Wrong. I use area triggers for "bubble- shields" on a few different cosmetic ships. They absorb projectiles just fine.
     

    CyberTao

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    Your right, ofc - I'm being unreasonable.

    Regardless, please understand that many compromises in game balance that I've seen just end up making the situation worse instead of better. From my perspective, giving turrets their mothership's shielding is the first step in a line of changes to both encourage fighter groups and diversify turret sizes. At the very least it should be given a chance before dismissing it altogether as *overpowered* or limiting.
    Question for you, based on something else you said;
    Look, if you continue to force turrets to just be another ship attached to the mothership, and you don't make exceptions for that huge disadvantage, they will be worthless once turret turning is fixed. Past a certain weight class, turrets will turn too slowly to hit anything moving laterally at a respectable relative speed. Thus, people will make more numerous and smaller turrets - which is also stupid, because they get shot off much, much easier and come with a high maintenance cost.
    IF turrets and the mothership had shared shields, then the balancing factor would be turret turn speeds, correct? Why would anyone build bigger turrets if the shielding would be the same, and it would turn slower? Damage is linear, so 10 turrets with 40 blocks each is the same as 1 with 400, except with better power efficiency and no need for power tanks. Such a system would mean it'd be less efficient to build larger turrets, and people would spam smaller ones, thus making fighters less useful since all the turrets would be small enough to track them.

    Just something I thought of whilst reading here.
     
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    Question for you, based on something else you said;

    IF turrets and the mothership had shared shields, then the balancing factor would be turret turn speeds, correct? Why would anyone build bigger turrets if the shielding would be the same, and it would turn slower? Damage is linear, so 10 turrets with 40 blocks each is the same as 1 with 400, except with better power efficiency and no need for power tanks. Such a system would mean it'd be less efficient to build larger turrets, and people would spam smaller ones, thus making fighters less useful since all the turrets would be small enough to track them.

    Just something I thought of whilst reading here.
    Some servers have turret limits.
    There isn't always room for 400 or even 40 turrets on a ship.
    If there was room, not all of the turrets could shoot at the same thing at the same time.

    If this is an issue despite those things, it would likely be simple to give turrets diminishing returns on power efficiency based on the number of turrets. Similar to how power efficiency goes down on weapon computers that control multiple weapon groups.
     

    CyberTao

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    Some servers have turret limits.
    There isn't always room for 400 or even 40 turrets on a ship.
    If there was room, not all of the turrets could shoot at the same thing at the same time.
    That is true with how people currently build ships, but people will exploit what they can. I remember a step design with rows of turrets that was to be part of a ship I never built. Many turrets all designed to be in range when you tilt the ship at a slight angle (coupled with target selected).

    If this is an issue despite those things, it would likely be simple to give turrets diminishing returns on power efficiency based on the number of turrets.
    How do you intend to do this? Turrets themselves, especially small ones, can easily get more than enough power regen. Computers work by adding a power cost modifier based on the outputs detected, using a similar system would mean forcing a power modifier onto turrets based on how many turrets modules are intact, and that would only work if the turrets themselves were designed to have their own power supply (some people do not have power on their turrets). It would also punish large ships with many PD turrets the same as a small ship as well.

    Your flagic seems lawled.
     
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    Increase power consumption of weapon computers docked to turrets based on the number turrets in turret docks. Whether or not ships with many PD turrets would be punished or not would be a function of how this is balanced.

    Your flagic seems lawled.
    Are statements like this strictly necessary?
     

    CyberTao

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    Increase power consumption of weapon computers docked to turrets based on the number turrets in turret docks. Whether or not ships with many PD turrets would be punished or not would be a function of how this is balanced.



    Are statements like this strictly necessary?
    It is when you throw out an idea with what seems to be the intention of someone else figuring it out. The point is that PD and other turrets on a large ship can be numerous, what would be considered a reasonable number of turrets on a large ship would be a ridiculous amount on a small ship. Counting active docks would be as easy as counting logic outputs, since an active dock does output a logic signal, but it is blind and punishing to those who don't build within a certain guideline, i.e., a limit.
     
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    i think the turrets should share a percentage of the mothership's shields.
     

    Mered4

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    Question for you, based on something else you said;

    IF turrets and the mothership had shared shields, then the balancing factor would be turret turn speeds, correct? Why would anyone build bigger turrets if the shielding would be the same, and it would turn slower? Damage is linear, so 10 turrets with 40 blocks each is the same as 1 with 400, except with better power efficiency and no need for power tanks. Such a system would mean it'd be less efficient to build larger turrets, and people would spam smaller ones, thus making fighters less useful since all the turrets would be small enough to track them.

    Just something I thought of whilst reading here.
    People would build large turrets only as sniper turrets, meant for one or two massive shots before getting in close. You have to remember that many ship designs are not built with these humongous turrets thrown in. If you don't force folks to build huge turrets, ship shapes become much, much more flexible than the standard flattop we see these days. Suddenly, that aesthetically pleasing organic shape (or wedges, even) becomes a feasible combat design - at least offensively.

    That is true with how people currently build ships, but people will exploit what they can. I remember a step design with rows of turrets that was to be part of a ship I never built. Many turrets all designed to be in range when you tilt the ship at a slight angle (coupled with target selected).


    How do you intend to do this? Turrets themselves, especially small ones, can easily get more than enough power regen. Computers work by adding a power cost modifier based on the outputs detected, using a similar system would mean forcing a power modifier onto turrets based on how many turrets modules are intact, and that would only work if the turrets themselves were designed to have their own power supply (some people do not have power on their turrets). It would also punish large ships with many PD turrets the same as a small ship as well.

    Your flagic seems lawled.
    Just have each turret drain power by default from the mothership based on mass. Add in a non-negligible base value for all turret docks, and voila! Small turret farms are limited!
     
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    Turrets being destructible by smaller support craft is REQUIRED for smaller support craft to not be utterly useless except in massive swarms. This isn't about how "unrealistic" it is for turrets to not be protected because they move, this is about the GAMEPLAY aspect, and the GAMEPLAY aspect says it's boring as hell for smaller ships to be unable to do shit in battle.
    So big ships should be vulnerable to smaller craft? I don't think you understand how balance works. You cant expect a machine gun to sink an aircraft carrier, you need somthing big enough to punch a whole. Same concept (should) apply here. As with any other sci-fi universe, once you get trhough the shields, then anything is fair game, as it should be.


    Wow, have you considered having a game use an original concept for once? Starmade doesn't need to leech everything off of successful sci-fi films where gameplay doesn't matter because it's meant to look cool.
    Assuming that original idea makes sense, sure, but this is not one such idea. The reason those other sci-fi things are successful is because they did it right. It made sense, it felt right, and it worked. Making turrets unprotected "weak spots" by design does NOT work. No one in their right mind would EVER design a ship with intentional weak spots. That goes against every sensible form of logic in the book. Weak spots are flaws in design, not put there by design.
     

    Snk

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    So big ships should be vulnerable to smaller craft? I don't think you understand how balance works. You cant expect a machine gun to sink an aircraft carrier, you need somthing big enough to punch a whole. Same concept (should) apply here. As with any other sci-fi universe, once you get trhough the shields, then anything is fair game, as it should be.
    What happened at Midway again?
     

    CyberTao

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    So big ships should be vulnerable to smaller craft? I don't think you understand how balance works. You cant expect a machine gun to sink an aircraft carrier, you need somthing big enough to punch a whole. Same concept (should) apply here. As with any other sci-fi universe, once you get trhough the shields, then anything is fair game, as it should be.
    A fighter might not be able to sink the aircraft carrier, but it can drop destroy the planes on it's deck and potentially pop a weapon off the deck (I assume Carriers have some AA defence). Destroying a turret does not sink the ship, it just hinders it. No one wants a fighter to sink a titan, they just want fighter to have an effect on the fight, just like how a squadron can get lucky and pick off a gun on a battleship. Battleship still lives, but suddenly the odds are more against them. If fighters could not do anything, then why do they have anti-air? In real life we have fighters and bombers, in Starmade those are both more or less the same ship (which kinda makes sense, given the lack of air resistance, such a thing should be viable.

    Turrets may be a 'weak spot', but they are hardly crippling by themselves. If you find yourself with all your turrets picked off and surrounded, well then maybe you shouldn't be trying to fight by yourself.
     
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    I've given some thought to this. I'd like to suggest to ability to link both types of shield blocks to docks, both turret and static. The linked blocks no longer count towards the motherships shield count, and instead provide shields to the entity that is docked in the zone that has the shield blocks linked to it.

    This means that the turret doesn't get an instant boost simply from the mothership shields.
    It also means the ship designer can choose either shields on the turret, or on the mothership, leading to more effective turrets, and useful protection for fighters and drones while they are docked, without being too OP, since you have to sacrifice mothership mass/space to gain the extra protection.
    I believe this is probably the best idea yet.
     
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    What happened at Midway again?
    Bombers. Learn you some history. The fighters mainly took out other fighters and small ground targets to prevent the US from retaliating. But they had a single torpedo that used on ships, most of which, mind you, missed.

    A fighter might not be able to sink the aircraft carrier, but it can drop destroy the planes on it's deck and potentially pop a weapon off the deck (I assume Carriers have some AA defence). Destroying a turret does not sink the ship, it just hinders it. No one wants a fighter to sink a titan, they just want fighter to have an effect on the fight, just like how a squadron can get lucky and pick off a gun on a battleship. Battleship still lives, but suddenly the odds are more against them. If fighters could not do anything, then why do they have anti-air? In real life we have fighters and bombers, in Starmade those are both more or less the same ship (which kinda makes sense, given the lack of air resistance, such a thing should be viable.

    Turrets may be a 'weak spot', but they are hardly crippling by themselves. If you find yourself with all your turrets picked off and surrounded, well then maybe you shouldn't be trying to fight by yourself.
    Again, bombers. A MACHINE GUN can NOT take a turret off a battleship. Put a torpedo on a fighter, you get a 1-off crack at a (Shieldless, mind you) ship, but after that, the fighter alone is moot.

    Im not against a squad of fighters taking on a bigger ship. The constant pelting from them would be able to break through shields, but there is zero practical reason why turrets should inherently be vulnerable by design. Its just stupid.
     
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    Bombers. Learn you some history. The fighters mainly took out other fighters and small ground targets to prevent the US from retaliating. But they had a single torpedo that used on ships, most of which, mind you, missed.


    Again, bombers. A MACHINE GUN can NOT take a turret off a battleship. Put a torpedo on a fighter, you get a 1-off crack at a (Shieldless, mind you) ship, but after that, the fighter alone is moot.

    Im not against a squad of fighters taking on a bigger ship. The constant pelting from them would be able to break through shields, but there is zero practical reason why turrets should inherently be vulnerable by design. Its just stupid.
    Turrets are not supposed to be vulnerable by design, but they also aren't as strong as the ship (because turrets require all that engineering and such for the gun)
     

    CyberTao

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    Again, bombers. A MACHINE GUN can NOT take a turret off a battleship.
    That becomes quite hilarious when big ships equip what could be called a "machine gun" and slowly eat ships. In starmade, weapons are linear, unlike in real life, where you can pack a lot of power into a single use item. If you scale up a weapon to the point where it would be considered a "bomb" in terms of damage, you got a corvette. A fighter in starmade is not a fighter in real life. Bombers do not exist in Starmade either, they are just bigger fighters. Bigger is better is not something you will find a whole lot of support for.

    A full shield share favours large ships too much, Crusade's idea was probably the best way to do it, should it ever be added. Having to replace turrets that were shot off is part of maintenance of large ships, and will probably get a hell of a lot easier if shipyards can repair from blueprints, since turrets are a part of blueprints. Though, I admit it might just be me who believes ships should need maintenance and some loving after a fight, if I spent a long time building a ship, I get attached and will happily replace and repair the ship down to the single block (would probably make use of copy/pasta though).

    The biggest argument for shared shields is the fact that you have to replace turrets (though in a faction, you should have someone for that), which may or may not even be a hassle after shipyards. If you are losing too many turrets, consider rearranging them, or adding bigger/specialized ones to protect the smaller ones from fightercrafts.
     

    Mered4

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    That becomes quite hilarious when big ships equip what could be called a "machine gun" and slowly eat ships. In starmade, weapons are linear, unlike in real life, where you can pack a lot of power into a single use item. If you scale up a weapon to the point where it would be considered a "bomb" in terms of damage, you got a corvette. A fighter in starmade is not a fighter in real life. Bombers do not exist in Starmade either, they are just bigger fighters. Bigger is better is not something you will find a whole lot of support for.

    A full shield share favours large ships too much, Crusade's idea was probably the best way to do it, should it ever be added. Having to replace turrets that were shot off is part of maintenance of large ships, and will probably get a hell of a lot easier if shipyards can repair from blueprints, since turrets are a part of blueprints. Though, I admit it might just be me who believes ships should need maintenance and some loving after a fight, if I spent a long time building a ship, I get attached and will happily replace and repair the ship down to the single block (would probably make use of copy/pasta though).

    The biggest argument for shared shields is the fact that you have to replace turrets (though in a faction, you should have someone for that), which may or may not even be a hassle after shipyards. If you are losing too many turrets, consider rearranging them, or adding bigger/specialized ones to protect the smaller ones from fightercrafts.
    This whole argument that maintenance can be passed off to another player in your faction is ludicrous. I'm in a (currently) three player faction on MFleet, and we all do our own thing. If we need to fight something or someone I'm sure we'd do quite fine (we have some of the best engineers in the server). However, the maintenance would be out the window. The new block system has alleviated this somewhat, so that I can basically build block the entire ship, then add the missing blocks to a Blueprint. Much faster than repairing for most ships, and I get all my turrets back. Back when we had a twenty player faction, we didn't assign those things. It just wasn't something anyone wanted to do - after all, it's your goddamn ship. You broke it, you fix it.

    The only reason I pull a larger ship is its survivability. Were I to make the investment, a drone carrier with 20 or so decently sized AI drones can take down basically any ship in the game. Large ships are really dumb, and it's partly because their turrets can be shot off while their shields are still up.

    Ever tried equipping a nuke to a small bomber? Because that is a thing. It does a lot of damage for a tiny package, if you cna stash the power cap in there somewhere.
     

    CyberTao

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    Ever tried equipping a nuke to a small bomber? Because that is a thing. It does a lot of damage for a tiny package, if you cna stash the power cap in there somewhere.
    I can't say I've ever really heard of anyone doing that, since you are wasting space with tanks. The DPS is also lower compared to other weapons, with the only advantage being the large radius, though a rapid fire missile could prove just as, if not more effective I would think. But that is off-topic rambling on my part.

    Whether or not missile strikes like that are even viable depends on whether or not the server balanced the weapon speeds, server speeds, AI range, and sector size (and weapon range to a lower extent). Besides, I suppose you could consider those a "bomber" of sorts, so it make sense if they can damage large ship weapons, right? Can't imagine it'd be much fun to fly, but still, if you get close enough to get a hit with properly working PD turrets, then I don't see a problem really.

    I don't have a faction btw, it meant to relate to what I had also said about not minding repairs, meaning I wouldn't mind fixing up ships if they were left in a dock and I knew what they were suppose to be. I have no idea what goes on with MF, but other 'major' factions as they are called have roles, and I assumed collecting and fixing/replacing ships would be done by someone with time to kill. Not everyone enjoys fighting, so I like to believe there are roles for people like that.
     
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    That becomes quite hilarious when big ships equip what could be called a "machine gun" and slowly eat ships. In starmade, weapons are linear, unlike in real life, where you can pack a lot of power into a single use item. If you scale up a weapon to the point where it would be considered a "bomb" in terms of damage, you got a corvette. A fighter in starmade is not a fighter in real life. Bombers do not exist in Starmade either, they are just bigger fighters. Bigger is better is not something you will find a whole lot of support for.

    A full shield share favours large ships too much, Crusade's idea was probably the best way to do it, should it ever be added. Having to replace turrets that were shot off is part of maintenance of large ships, and will probably get a hell of a lot easier if shipyards can repair from blueprints, since turrets are a part of blueprints. Though, I admit it might just be me who believes ships should need maintenance and some loving after a fight, if I spent a long time building a ship, I get attached and will happily replace and repair the ship down to the single block (would probably make use of copy/pasta though).

    The biggest argument for shared shields is the fact that you have to replace turrets (though in a faction, you should have someone for that), which may or may not even be a hassle after shipyards. If you are losing too many turrets, consider rearranging them, or adding bigger/specialized ones to protect the smaller ones from fightercrafts.
    I never said ships shouldn't need maintenance, nor turrets shouldn't get blown off. However, I don't think turrets should magically be more vulnerable just because they are turrets. They should share shields with the main craft. Once you punch through the shields, then the entire ship is fair game, turrets and all. If you cant punch through the shields, then you picked a bad fight. Simple as that.

    This is how every space game does shields, because it works. Trying to reinvent the wheel for the sake of reinventing the wheel is just a stupid idea. We reuse the wheel because the wheel works.
     

    Lecic

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    So big ships should be vulnerable to smaller craft? I don't think you understand how balance works. You cant expect a machine gun to sink an aircraft carrier, you need somthing big enough to punch a whole. Same concept (should) apply here. As with any other sci-fi universe, once you get trhough the shields, then anything is fair game, as it should be.



    Assuming that original idea makes sense, sure, but this is not one such idea. The reason those other sci-fi things are successful is because they did it right. It made sense, it felt right, and it worked. Making turrets unprotected "weak spots" by design does NOT work. No one in their right mind would EVER design a ship with intentional weak spots. That goes against every sensible form of logic in the book. Weak spots are flaws in design, not put there by design.
    Big ships shouldn't be vulnerable to small ships. However, turrets are, by nature, a small ship themselves. So, a fighter should be able to take them down. You can't expect a machinegun to take down an aircraft carrier, yes, but in Starmade, all weapons (should) have equal DPS, so a machinegun can take down an aircraft carrier. Of course, that's not what you meant, is it? You meant a small gun shouldn't be able to take down a big ship.

    Turrets are weakspots that exist for gameplay purposes. The ability to have weapons that can hit independent of the main ship's turning rate is a powerful one. So, the limiter to that is that smaller, agile ships can take them out, at the risk of being destroyed by the fact that a ship can have numerous turrets, or that a ship can manage to get its main guns on a fighter on occasion.

    You seem to be forgetting that turrets (and drones) can fire lock-on missiles without lock on times. This makes being a fighter very dangerous, as you already have lower shields.

    This whole argument that maintenance can be passed off to another player in your faction is ludicrous. I'm in a (currently) three player faction on MFleet, and we all do our own thing. If we need to fight something or someone I'm sure we'd do quite fine (we have some of the best engineers in the server). However, the maintenance would be out the window. The new block system has alleviated this somewhat, so that I can basically build block the entire ship, then add the missing blocks to a Blueprint. Much faster than repairing for most ships, and I get all my turrets back. Back when we had a twenty player faction, we didn't assign those things. It just wasn't something anyone wanted to do - after all, it's your goddamn ship. You broke it, you fix it.

    The only reason I pull a larger ship is its survivability. Were I to make the investment, a drone carrier with 20 or so decently sized AI drones can take down basically any ship in the game. Large ships are really dumb, and it's partly because their turrets can be shot off while their shields are still up.

    Ever tried equipping a nuke to a small bomber? Because that is a thing. It does a lot of damage for a tiny package, if you cna stash the power cap in there somewhere.
    This sounds more like an issue with faction organization and not gameplay. If your faction members "all do their own thing" then you're more of an allegiance than an actual team. A well organized faction would have no problem with repairing other ship's turrets if need be.
     

    Snk

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    Bombers. Learn you some history. The fighters mainly took out other fighters and small ground targets to prevent the US from retaliating. But they had a single torpedo that used on ships, most of which, mind you, missed.
    Bombers weren't much bigger than fighters, and it only took a single well aimed bomb or two to sink a ship.