Reason for having an interior

[Viridis00]

This game requires either efficiency, or looks. Its a compromise. Trying to make it not a compromise just breaks things.

Yeah, I'll agree. I mostly build with aesthetics in mind, but choose one or the other. Tanks, submarines, and other military machines in real life are cramped, hot, and barebones death traps. Optimized for function not comfort.

A good builder can work around the system anyway and leave a little deadspace for some kind of corridor or small room and spice it up with wedges and such. Those couple off free spaces left aren't going to make a huge difference anyway.

 

[Vyor]

Because an image macro is a great way to prove your point and not make you look like a fool.

You know why I posted that? Because I am tired of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over...

 

[Lecic]

Yes, it is dumb that you have to make a big cross with engines to be more efficient, instead of designing a good looking engine at the back. People aren't going to build "better looking" quarters for their crew if it is added. They will make minimum required for functionality if that is what they did before. You absolutely cannot make a "more creative" design be better in functionality, and that would hurt the less creative of us if it were possible. You would force people to make ugly crew quarters on ships, when they could have had a simple, better looking interior without them. People who already want to make good designed interiors have to accept efficiency loss either way, so why force people to make garbage, out of place, interiors on their ships? This game requires either efficiency, or looks. Its a compromise. Trying to make it not a compromise just breaks things.

...what? Are you for real? Most people designing interiors already build crew quarters and stations for various systems. A corridor to the core is not an interior. It is a hallway that exists solely because you can't pilot the ship without a hallway to the core. Are you arguing against this because you couldn't successfully build a good looking crew quarters or something? Because the basis of your argument here seems to be anger over requiring (even though it wouldn't be required, just a good idea to) the inclusion of a quarters to your ship. The point of this is to make up for the fact that people who build nice interiors lose shield and energy and thrust to house them, by having NPCs running things making it more efficient. It makes perfect, 100% sense, that having another person monitor and control a system makes it run faster.

 

[Lecic]

You know why I posted that? Because I am tired of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over...

Tell me, Vyor. Why is a solid mass of blocks with a hallway to the core more desirable than nice, large crew quarters, or even ugly, cramped, realistic rooms? I'm legitimately curious.

 

[Syzygy]

...what? Are you for real? Most people designing interiors already build crew quarters and stations for various systems. A corridor to the core is not an interior. It is a hallway that exists solely because you can't pilot the ship without a hallway to the core. Are you arguing against this because you couldn't successfully build a good looking crew quarters or something? Because the basis of your argument here seems to be anger over requiring (even though it wouldn't be required, just a good idea to) the inclusion of a quarters to your ship. The point of this is to make up for the fact that people who build nice interiors lose shield and energy and thrust to house them, by having NPCs running things making it more efficient. It makes perfect, 100% sense, that having another person monitor and control a system makes it run faster.

I can build interiors. I do build interiors. But not always. It depends on the ship, what I want it to be. The point is that people who build nice interiors now still will, and the people who don't still wont. You can't make having a crew quarters be just as good as not. There will still be a way to skimp on the crew quarters and make it not look good to reduce mass. If you build ugly crew quarters, it still works, because the game can't judge design. For the ships I want to have nice interiors, they still will; but you are now forcing the ones I don't want to have interiors to have ugly, garbage interiors that I didn't want and that don't even look like an interior, if I want the ship to be able to hold its own. You aren't fixing anything, good looking interiors will still be worse in efficiency; you are just forcing people to not build efficient ships the way they want. All it adds is a problem.

 

[Visitor]

macro

I'd like to request for you to regard my points or move on instead of being immature right now. If you do think you've regarded what I've said before, provide a quote. If not, please do not bring the thread down. The image was hardly funny or called for and simply looks like a poor attempt at making up for lack of decent response.

 

[Vyor]

Tell me, Vyor. Why is a solid mass of blocks with a hallway to the core more desirable than nice, large crew quarters, or even ugly, cramped, realistic rooms? I'm legitimately curious.

Did I ever say that? No, I said that this suggestion won't fix anything. A 1million mass ship will have the same stats as any other 1 million mass ship regardless(same setup). Some people choose to make cubes, some people choose to make nice interiors. This won't do anything!

Also, Syzygy Said it perfectly.... and many other people have said the exact same thing, many times in fact.

 

[rece ktore leczo]

Syzygy Please read previous posts regarding concerns about forcing players to build interiors, all the previous conversations are here, so we don't have to repeat ourselves typing the same answers over and over again. This topic starts on the first page.

If You are too busy to re-read whole thread then here is some summary - this suggestion won't force anyone to build interior.


Vyor This suggestion would give a reason for the interiors to exist (other than decoration/RP), would require more thought while designing ships, add new tactical level for combat, add immersion of living and functioning ships, make invading the ship doable, NPCs would have something to do in the game and purpose to stay on our ships/stations, also NPCs could be harder to gather, so they would be a luxury good.
So, please, don't say this won't fix anything.

 

[Viridis00]

this suggestion won't force anyone to build interior.

If a system rewards players for doing something and does nothing for those who don't, they will naturally gravitate towards the former. Competitive players will always optimize their creations and do the bare minimum of what they must do to gain what they want. Min-Maxing is prevalent all around in multiplayer games, and even in real world business. No one is forced, but they might as well be if they want the advantage. Min-maxing shipbuilders will half-ass their interiors to be as minimal as required to fit as many systems as they can.

Interiors should be just a purely aesthetic thing. Of course, interiors still have their own practical uses without a complex system in place that buffs with them. Particularly you need an interior space for docking, and hallways are necessary if you want your docks far away from your entry core.

 

[Vyor]

Syzygy Please read previous posts regarding concerns about forcing players to build interiors, all the previous conversations are here, so we don't have to repeat ourselves typing the same answers over and over again. This topic starts on the first page.

If You are too busy to re-read whole thread then here is some summary - this suggestion won't force anyone to build interior.


Vyor This suggestion would give a reason for the interiors to exist (other than decoration/RP), would require more thought while designing ships, add new tactical level for combat, add immersion of living and functioning ships, make invading the ship doable, NPCs would have something to do in the game and purpose to stay on our ships/stations, also NPCs could be harder to gather, so they would be a luxury good.
So, please, don't say this won't fix anything.

Tell me how a 1 million mass ship with interiors is a guaranteed lose against a ship with no interiors of the same mass.

 

[Syzygy]

Syzygy If You are too busy to re-read whole thread then here is some summary - this suggestion won't force anyone to build interior.


Vyor This suggestion would give a reason for the interiors to exist (other than decoration/RP), would require more thought while designing ships, add new tactical level for combat, add immersion of living and functioning ships, make invading the ship doable, NPCs would have something to do in the game and purpose to stay on our ships/stations, also NPCs could be harder to gather, so they would be a luxury good.
So, please, don't say this won't fix anything.

I read them. If it gives an advantage to build an interior, then it is essentially forcing. If it isn't an advantage, then it is pointless to add. You say it would be customizable, but game updates don't really give that. If you want it to be an option, you want it to be a mod. That is very doable, and should be suggested there rather than here. The developers have too little time to implement things unless they absolutely want it to be a part of the game. If it is a main feature, there is forcing.

It would require more thought, yes, but that thought is spent trying to make your ship work around that restriction, not in any actual enjoyable design. Less of the thought goes to creativity.
How does it add tactics to combat? You buy NPCs or you don't. There is nothing tactical added. Don't say it stops core drilling, because it doesn't.
You can already have the immersion you say will be gained. People already make ships focused on interiors. Forcing interiors will only change non-interior into minimal interior, which still isn't immersive. You can already have immersion, this doesn't add it. Anything that does add it I would approve of.
NPCs will have something to do in the game later, otherwise they would not have been added. That's how game development works. You don't have to say this finally gives them use, because there is no saying this will be implemented before what makes them useful is.

Again, you aren't really adding anything, interiors are still bad, they still lose in fights, problem not solved or even improved. You are just taking away an element that makes the game sandbox, nothing more.

 

[Lecic]

Did I ever say that? No, I said that this suggestion won't fix anything. A 1million mass ship will have the same stats as any other 1 million mass ship regardless(same setup). Some people choose to make cubes, some people choose to make nice interiors. This won't do anything!

Also, Syzygy Said it perfectly.... and many other people have said the exact same thing, many times in fact.

Well, let's see. Visitor said that a cramped, tank-like interior was better than people having no interiors at all. To which you responded with an image macro saying his post was stupid. So, either you didn't even read that post, or you are simply avoiding the question.

2 1mil mass ships will certainly NOT have identical stats, unless they are clones of each other. Making interiors a helpful and useful thing to have on ships will do something. I'm failing to see any of your logic saying it won't do anything. It won't making ships that both have interiors any different, but it certainly will in a no interior v interior ship battle.

As for being forced to make interiors, it's been said a thousand times, they aren't needed. It won't make your old ships unflyable.

 

[Lecic]

I read them. If it gives an advantage to build an interior, then it is essentially forcing. If it isn't an advantage, then it is pointless to add. You say it would be customizable, but game updates don't really give that. If you want it to be an option, you want it to be a mod. That is very doable, and should be suggested there rather than here. The developers have too little time to implement things unless they absolutely want it to be a part of the game. If it is a main feature, there is forcing.

It would require more thought, yes, but that thought is spent trying to make your ship work around that restriction, not in any actual enjoyable design. Less of the thought goes to creativity.
How does it add tactics to combat? You buy NPCs or you don't. There is nothing tactical added. Don't say it stops core drilling, because it doesn't.
You can already have the immersion you say will be gained. People already make ships focused on interiors. Forcing interiors will only change non-interior into minimal interior, which still isn't immersive. You can already have immersion, this doesn't add it. Anything that does add it I would approve of.
NPCs will have something to do in the game later, otherwise they would not have been added. That's how game development works. You don't have to say this finally gives them use, because there is no saying this will be implemented before what makes them useful is.

Again, you aren't really adding anything, interiors are still bad, they still lose in fights, problem not solved or even improved. You are just taking away an element that makes the game sandbox, nothing more.

Adds tactics to combat in the form of making boarding/defending from boarders a viable strategy. Adds tactics in the form of targeting enemy NPC hubs.

If an NPC is controlling a computer, even after the core is damaged, doesn't that mean is does work to stop core drilling?

Ships with quarters, even crappy minimalist quarters, add more to immersion than single corridors to the main core being the only interior. Since this adds immersion, you should support it, shouldn't you?

NPCs having been said to be able to control turrets and possibly man stations in the future. The devs have said this in Q&As. All this suggestion is saying is that NPCs should need to fulfill basic functions like being able to walk around and have a little personal space, to emulate them as actual humans controlling them.

 

[Syzygy]

Adds tactics to combat in the form of making boarding/defending from boarders a viable strategy. Adds tactics in the form of targeting enemy NPC hubs.

If an NPC is controlling a computer, even after the core is damaged, doesn't that mean is does work to stop core drilling?

Ships with quarters, even crappy minimalist quarters, add more to immersion than single corridors to the main core being the only interior. Since this adds immersion, you should support it, shouldn't you?

NPCs having been said to be able to control turrets and possibly man stations in the future. The devs have said this in Q&As. All this suggestion is saying is that NPCs should need to fulfill basic functions like being able to walk around and have a little personal space, to emulate them as actual humans controlling them.

You can already board, you don't have to give NPCs living quarters to enable them to be on your ship and shoot at invaders. This suggestion had nothing to do with making NPC hubs show up as a target like the ship core. None of that is a part of this suggestion, so no this suggestion does not add tactics.

Nowhere does this suggestion say that the NPCs enable a ship to continue working after the ship core is damaged.

No, I don't think minimalist quarters add immersion, and why does my ship have to be immersive? It is even possible it makes it less immersive. Maybe the crew consists of guards for a ship that is controlled by only an AI unit, accessible only by a mainframe, but now there would have to be crew stations that shouldn't be there. Say someone wanted to make an alien ship where the aliens sleep in pods specially designed by the player. Beds would make less sense then.

Again, NPCs can walk around and interact with the player, without requiring them in a ship for the ship to have a chance in combat. Not implementing this does not prevent NPCs from being more immersive.

Try addressing the suggestion, rather than your hopes of what NPCs become.

 

[Vyor]

Well, let's see. Visitor said that a cramped, tank-like interior was better than people having no interiors at all. To which you responded with an image macro saying his post was stupid. So, either you didn't even read that post, or you are simply avoiding the question.

2 1mil mass ships will certainly NOT have identical stats, unless they are clones of each other. Making interiors a helpful and useful thing to have on ships will do something. I'm failing to see any of your logic saying it won't do anything. It won't making ships that both have interiors any different, but it certainly will in a no interior v interior ship battle.

As for being forced to make interiors, it's been said a thousand times, they aren't needed. It won't make your old ships unflyable.

It will make them untenable though. They would lose in every fight. Also, logic blocks. With those, npcs should be able to fire weapons while you are firing other weapons.


How will they not have the same stats if they have the same number of each type of block(weapons, shields, etc)? Sure, the one with an interior would have a slight... actually, it wouldn't be slight, it would be minute as hell, just a few percentage points, even at 50,000 internal hull and decoration blocks, no ship has that much internals(at 1 million blocks, 2 million might).


How would it be better? If anything, it would be worse!


I can make an unassailable ship by adding turrets inside, no NPCs needed.


You have to add something far more organic than just giving a buff. Buffs force things to go in a certain direction. You need something that changes the meta, adds counter strategies, and keeps past ones useable. This doesn't do 2 of those things, that makes it so there is an optimal way to build... right now... there isn't(aside from cubes, but the engine overhaul will fix that).

 

[Lecic]

You can already board, you don't have to give NPCs living quarters to enable them to be on your ship and shoot at invaders. This suggestion had nothing to do with making NPC hubs show up as a target like the ship core. None of that is a part of this suggestion, so no this suggestion does not add tactics.

Nowhere does this suggestion say that the NPCs enable a ship to continue working after the ship core is damaged.

No, I don't think minimalist quarters add immersion, and why does my ship have to be immersive? It is even possible it makes it less immersive. Maybe the crew consists of guards for a ship that is controlled by only an AI unit, accessible only by a mainframe, but now there would have to be crew stations that shouldn't be there. Say someone wanted to make an alien ship where the aliens sleep in pods specially designed by the player. Beds would make less sense then.

Again, NPCs can walk around and interact with the player, without requiring them in a ship for the ship to have a chance in combat. Not implementing this does not prevent NPCs from being more immersive.

Try addressing the suggestion, rather than your hopes of what NPCs become.

No diamond displaying the hub doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Boom, espionage (actual spying, not that stupid "alt imbedded in the enemy faction" espionage) is now an important thing to do, so you can know where to target on the enemy ship. And also, believe it or not, a suggestion can evolve beyond the simple word for word original suggestion by the OP.

Shouldn't guards still need sleeping quarters? Also, BobbyAIs will still be a thing. You'll be able to use them in place of an NPC or player in control.

If intelligent alien species are ever added to the game (I sure hope they are), they could have their own specific needs, compared to humans. If the aliens need player built pods to sleep, then you could build pods instead of beds.

I am addressing the suggestion. I am saying that the NPCs are already going to be able to control things, and that is one reason this suggestion should be added, because it expands upon already planned features. NPCs ARE going to be able to control things. That isn't my "hope of what NPCs become." That is what Schema (or maybe is what Cal) have said.

 

[Vyor]

No diamond displaying the hub doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Boom, espionage

How would this even work!?!?!

 

[Syzygy]

No diamond displaying the hub doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Boom, espionage (actual spying, not that stupid "alt imbedded in the enemy faction" espionage) is now an important thing to do, so you can know where to target on the enemy ship. And also, believe it or not, a suggestion can evolve beyond the simple word for word original suggestion by the OP.

Shouldn't guards still need sleeping quarters? Also, BobbyAIs will still be a thing. You'll be able to use them in place of an NPC or player in control.

If intelligent alien species are ever added to the game (I sure hope they are), they could have their own specific needs, compared to humans. If the aliens need player built pods to sleep, then you could build pods instead of beds.

I am addressing the suggestion. I am saying that the NPCs are already going to be able to control things, and that is one reason this suggestion should be added, because it expands upon already planned features. NPCs ARE going to be able to control things. That isn't my "hope of what NPCs become." That is what Schema (or maybe is what Cal) have said.

You can't really do espionage, since you can't enter enemy ship with faction protection. Just continuing to blast would be more useful, since it is actually feasible.

Why do guards need beds for the 2 minute journeys between faction bases? Again, not all ships are designed for the same reasons, and not all should be forced to have interiors.

And again, nothing is added, but restrictions pulling the game away from sandbox.

 

[Lecic]

It will make them untenable though. They would lose in every fight. Also, logic blocks. With those, npcs should be able to fire weapons while you are firing other weapons.


How will they not have the same stats if they have the same number of each type of block(weapons, shields, etc)? Sure, the one with an interior would have a slight... actually, it wouldn't be slight, it would be minute as hell, just a few percentage points, even at 50,000 internal hull and decoration blocks, no ship has that much internals(at 1 million blocks, 2 million might).


How would it be better? If anything, it would be worse!


I can make an unassailable ship by adding turrets inside, no NPCs needed.


You have to add something far more organic than just giving a buff. Buffs force things to go in a certain direction. You need something that changes the meta, adds counter strategies, and keeps past ones useable. This doesn't do 2 of those things, that makes it so there is an optimal way to build... right now... there isn't(aside from cubes, but the engine overhaul will fix that).

What about logic blocks? With those I can fire weapons while they fire weapons? Are you actually serious? You can already do that with this magical thing called being the pilot, and it just so happens to be a lot better in every single way.

Having the same number of each block type isn't the same as having identical mass. It would be better because having NPCs man a computer should increase the power of it.

Oh, and what would you suggest? The completely organic boost of stuffing your hull with stat blocks for giving you more numbers? News flash, there will ALWAYS be an optimal way to build.

 

[Lecic]

How would this even work!?!?!

How would something continue to exist without a diamond showing it exists? Wow, I have no idea. If you meant espionage, it adds the need for it, so you know where you need to target.

You can't really do espionage, since you can't enter enemy ship with faction protection. Just continuing to blast would be more useful, since it is actually feasible.

Why do guards need beds for the 2 minute journeys between faction bases? Again, not all ships are designed for the same reasons, and not all should be forced to have interiors.

And again, nothing is added, but restrictions pulling the game away from sandbox.

You can totally do espionage. Just wait for someone to forget to close the door and sneak in and steal the layout of their ship. Also, wouldn't it be more effective to blast at areas that would wreck more havok, like an area with lots of NPCs than just general areas?

Well, you made it seem like it was a lengthy patrol boat, not a quick ferry between bases. Personally, I think that beds shouldn't be required for an NPC to function, but they would get more and more "tired" the longer they were away from a place with a bed, and perform jobs worse and worse. If you have guards on board, you're going to need basic interiors for them to be able to move, anyway.

And again, plenty is added, like adding more options in a sandbox.

---

NPCs are either going to be completely and utterly useless or do something in the form of giving some sort of boost to a ship or a turret or something. Ships that are crewed are going to end up being more powerful. This is almost certain. Otherwise, what is even the point of schema spending hours and hours of time to add NPCs to the game? This is just a suggestion on how it could be done.