Quadruple armor without cheating

    Olxinos

    French fry. Caution: very salty!
    Joined
    May 7, 2015
    Messages
    151
    Reaction score
    88
    Weight means nothing. Block count is your base variable to compare everything else with.
    Why? Weight might not be an exact measure of how "hard" it is to build that ship, but neither is block count.

    I mean, if you have two ships with the exact same systems, one covered with hull and the other covered with advanced armor, you do have the same amount of blocks but it isn't really fair either: advanced armor is much more expensive than hull.
    Besides, in your example, if both ships have the same mass and price (because the bigger one saved the costs of advanced armor and bought more systems instead) I don't see how you could say this isn't fair.

    To be honest, I hardly see any situation where block count is better metric than either mass or price:
    - mass tries to take into account the "effectiveness" of each block in combat so it should be a better metric of how potent a ship should be than block count
    - price is obviously the best metric if you want to see what are the best ships you can build with a budget

    Besides, heavy blocks tend to also be more expensive, so mass and price are a bit related.
     

    NeonSturm

    StormMaker
    Joined
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages
    5,110
    Reaction score
    617
    • Wired for Logic
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Block count = volume (exception quadruple armour)
    it interacts with evasion, turning speed, mass and cost
    Mass = how many thrusters you need and how many reactors for these thrusters
    indirectly affects block-count, mass with own mass, cost for thrusters/reactors
    because reactors (especially) scale non-linear, it's really complicated math here to figure out the mass-impact.
    Cost = very dependent on requirements to counter the impact of block-count and mass on combat-effectiveness and hard to calculate.

    And ofc it's server-config dependent too - the config-hacker has to understand all hard math to produce good results.
    sm40k.enjin.com's server:
    Hull 0.05 mass - 60 are 3 mass.
    Standard 0.15 mass - 20 are 3 mass.
    Advanced 0.25 mass - 12 are 3 mass.
    -
    Hull 12 credits - 60 blocks cost 720 credits (3 mass)
    Standard 133 credits - 20 blocks cost 2'660 (3 mass) - 370% of Basic hull (for same mass)
    Advanced 500 credits - 12 blocks cost 6'000 (3 mass) - 130% of Standard (for same mass)
    -
    Hull 75 hp /1 damage *60 blocks = 4'500 ehp
    Standard 100 hp /0.4 damage *20 blocks = 8'000 ehp
    it's ok to pay 370% for 180% ehp, if you save 2/3 volume, but advanced is far more effective at that!
    Advanced 250 hp /0.2 damage *12 blocks = 15'000 ehp
    it's ok to pay 130% for 200% ehp if you save 2/5 volume (166% volume with standard)
    it's also ok to pay 850% for 330% ehp if you save 4/5 volume (500% volume with hull)

    I normalized all EHP and credit-costs for 3 mass, so that I could compare Cost, EHP and Volume easier.

    Now you see that the config for this server makes standard being almost useless compared to advanced, once you decide to not tank everything with shields.​
     

    Olxinos

    French fry. Caution: very salty!
    Joined
    May 7, 2015
    Messages
    151
    Reaction score
    88
    NeonSturm, I'm a bit confused, I don't know whether your post was also supposed to answer mine (since you rated it funny so I assume you disagreed). If this is the case, I was only asking Lecic why he thinks we should compare ships relatively to their block count (and arguing that I think mass or price would probably be better suited)

    Other than that, I agree that standard armour is quite mediocre in spite of you forgetting to take into account the AHP contribution (3'000 AHP/3mass for basic hull, 1'500AHP/3mass for standard armor, 600AHP/3mass for advanced armor).
    You also made a mistake about the advanced armor's armor rating. It's actually 0.75 and not 0.8 (I know the game says 0.8 in the description, but that display is actually rounded with 1 decimal... besides if you scroll further down you get the exact percentage with is 75%... I know, it's dumb) so it amounts to 12'000EHP/3mass instead of 15'000EHP/3mass.

    Edit: I don't really understand why you raise this point though. oh! I see, thanks
     
    Last edited:

    NeonSturm

    StormMaker
    Joined
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages
    5,110
    Reaction score
    617
    • Wired for Logic
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    EDIT: I wanted to contribute to the question how to evaluate the 4-dimensional weight mass cost volume graph.
    Not only do you have 4 dimensions, you have 4 measurement units (compared to 2 in 4D Space-Time).
    I reduced them to 3 measurement units which we are more likely to be able to handle, by normalizing one to always-the-same value.

    Other than that, I agree that standard armour is quite mediocre in spite of you forgetting to take into account the AHP contribution
    Just tells how difficult it is to know what you are confronted with.
    AHP are not easy to understand and not shown ingame and also relatively new (I never played around with it jet).
    You also made a mistake about the advanced armor's armor rating. It's actually 0.75 and not 0.8
    WTF. All decimals should be ±1/100 accurate!
    Because here not the armour, but the leaked damage is important, 20→25, it's ±20/100 = absolutely inacceptable! (support bug report)
     
    Last edited:

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,115
    Reaction score
    1,229
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    I mean, if you have two ships with the exact same systems, one covered with hull and the other covered with advanced armor, you do have the same amount of blocks but it isn't really fair either: advanced armor is much more expensive than hull.
    Besides, in your example, if both ships have the same mass and price (because the bigger one saved the costs of advanced armor and bought more systems instead) I don't see how you could say this isn't fair.

    To be honest, I hardly see any situation where block count is better metric than either mass or price:
    - mass tries to take into account the "effectiveness" of each block in combat so it should be a better metric of how potent a ship should be than block count
    - price is obviously the best metric if you want to see what are the best ships you can build with a budget

    Besides, heavy blocks tend to also be more expensive, so mass and price are a bit related.
    Block count is simply the best base variable to compare everything else (mass, cost, etc) with. All the other variables twist eachother in some way, but block count is just block count.

    Advanced is better than hull, yes, but it's also heavier, and the ship that only uses hull is probably not trying to tank with light armor, and has replaced the advanced armor with shields, and will also go faster. It's not unfair to use block count as a metric here.

    The bigger one may have the same mass, but it will NOT have the same price. You know why? Because shields cost twice as many capsules and advanced armor weighs 2.5x as much. 3 mass of advanced armor might cost 300 capsules, but 3 mass of shields (regen or capacity) costs 1500 capsules. Price is probably the best metric for measuring your bang for your buck, but armor is cheaper than shields.

    Mass does not mean the """"effectiveness"""" of each block in combat, and if it does, it certainly doesn't mean what you think it does, because then advanced would be better. Compare 1375 EHP per .25 mass (assuming ion AND assuming no drop in shield effectiveness, which shields have but it makes calculating little things a pain in the ass) with the 4000 EHP per .25 mass of advanced armor.

    And no, heavy blocks are NOT more expensive. Standard and Advanced are both less expensive per mass than shields, Standard especially with its whopping low cost of 100 capsules for 3 mass.
     
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2015
    Messages
    300
    Reaction score
    90
    Advanced armor OP plz nerf.

    Seriously though I feel that standard armor needs some love. It weighs too much for its HP. Its value needs to be increased or its cost (in weight or otherwise) reduced. This is especially true for smaller fighters that have no lightweight protection and need to rely quite a bit on advanced armor.

    Also I would post some of my own findings on the use of armor but I'd much rather settle this on the field of battle. We can talk all day about which is most important for a ship but I'm sure no matter what tactic we develop someone else in the community will have a counter. It's one of the reasons I enjoy this game so much. Being meta is always a thing in starmade.
     

    Olxinos

    French fry. Caution: very salty!
    Joined
    May 7, 2015
    Messages
    151
    Reaction score
    88
    Block count is simply the best base variable to compare everything else (mass, cost, etc) with. All the other variables twist eachother in some way, but block count is just block count.

    Advanced is better than hull, yes, but it's also heavier, and the ship that only uses hull is probably not trying to tank with light armor, and has replaced the advanced armor with shields, and will also go faster. It's not unfair to use block count as a metric here.
    Well, sure, if you're replacing my example by another one, you can say yours is balanced indeed. But ok, I admit that you can't just swap armor types, keep the same systems and call it a day, that wasn't a very realistic example.

    The bigger one may have the same mass, but it will NOT have the same price. You know why? Because shields cost twice as many capsules and advanced armor weighs 2.5x as much. 3 mass of advanced armor might cost 300 capsules, but 3 mass of shields (regen or capacity) costs 1500 capsules. Price is probably the best metric for measuring your bang for your buck, but armor is cheaper than shields.
    I didn't mention shields. I could make a long-range ship with no shields, no heavy armor, but high thrust and light spaced ablative armor to counter smart missiles for instance. Granted, this would certainly be extremely dangerous to fly, but it is feasible. Actually since shield tanks are heavier than armor tanks (according to you), we could also consider the opposite case where the small ship is a shield tank and the bigger one an armor tank, should that be unfair because the armor tank has more blocks than the shield tank?
    Besides, in your example, you argue that it wouldn't be fair because the big one is very likely to be an expensive shield tank... so you're actually using price as a metric here and not block count.

    Mass does not mean the """"effectiveness"""" of each block in combat, and if it does, it certainly doesn't mean what you think it does, because then advanced would be better. Compare 1375 EHP per .25 mass (assuming ion AND assuming no drop in shield effectiveness, which shields have but it makes calculating little things a pain in the ass) with the 4000 EHP per .25 mass of advanced armor.

    And no, heavy blocks are NOT more expensive. Standard and Advanced are both less expensive per mass than shields, Standard especially with its whopping low cost of 100 capsules for 3 mass.
    Blocks designed to be used and/or give an edge in battle are heavier: advanced armor blocks are heavier than standard armor because they grant better protection, decorative blocks don't weight much because they don't make the ship much more threatening. I never said that each block's mass was perfectly balanced (it's a beta), but there's an intent to link mass and effectiveness.
    Also, to address your example... well... I don't really see what you're trying to prove here. Not only those blocks can't be compared with just numbers (both shields and armor have their advantages and none is better in all cases), but as I said Starmade is far from being balanced atm.
    (you also made a mistake: it's 687.5EHP/0.25mass per shield capacitor with full ion (110*2.5/(1-0.6)), assuming there's no diminishing return)

    [Edit: I missed that part but if you're comparing the price of two blocks to say heavier blocks aren't more expensive... don't compare the price per mass.
    I also said "heavier blocks tend to be more expensive" not that they're always more expensive, granted I thought the difference was more pronounced than that though]

    ----

    You seem to think I'm trying to argue that shield tanks are better than armor tanks or vice-versa. I'm not, I'm only saying that either price or mass is a better metric to compare ships. I could understand that mass is a flawed metric because you can have a super light ship which is actually hard to build, but block count is at least equally flawed since you can also make an expensive ship with very few blocks as well.

    Comradecolonel I agree, not to mention it looks good :(
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2015
    Messages
    300
    Reaction score
    90
    Yes I did forget one of the main reasons I want standard armor to be more useful. The lack of seams are lovely and I still cover my ships in a layer of it for looks alone.
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,115
    Reaction score
    1,229
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    Actually since shield tanks are heavier than armor tanks (according to you)
    Er, sorry, what? o_O That's not what I said. I was saying that shields cost more for the same weight and have less HP than advanced armor, not that they weigh more. Armor tanks typically weigh more because shield tanks have less overall HP. That doesn't mean they're worse, because the HP covers the entire ship, but you're wrong about how shields are better for mass and cost.

    Besides, in your example, you argue that it wouldn't be fair because the big one is very likely to be an expensive shield tank... so you're actually using price as a metric here and not block count.
    Price (in resources, not credits) and block count combined are the best metric, which is what I am arguing.
     

    Olxinos

    French fry. Caution: very salty!
    Joined
    May 7, 2015
    Messages
    151
    Reaction score
    88
    Er, sorry, what? o_O That's not what I said. I was saying that shields cost more for the same weight and have less HP than advanced armor, not that they weigh more.
    Oops, sorry, lapsus, I meant that:

    Actually since shield tanks are more expensive* than armor tanks (according to you), we could also consider the opposite case where the small ship is a shield tank and the bigger one an armor tank, should that be unfair because the armor tank has more blocks than the shield tank?
    (assuming both cost the same price)

    Armor tanks typically weigh more because shield tanks have less overall HP. That doesn't mean they're worse, because the HP covers the entire ship, but you're wrong about how shields are better for mass and cost.

    Price (in resources, not credits) and block count combined are the best metric, which is what I am arguing.
    Actually, I don't want to say anything about which of shield or armor is better (although adv. armor was is indeed less expensive than I thought compared to other systems). In fact I think both are useful and often tend to use a combination of both but it doesn't really matter.
    I agree with you on the price metric. I'm still dubious about block count though, but I guess it's not that bad as long as you have ships free of decorative blocks and/or terrain blocks (and I admit mass might be more flawed in such cases, which includes all PvP ships I guess).
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Lecic

    NeonSturm

    StormMaker
    Joined
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages
    5,110
    Reaction score
    617
    • Wired for Logic
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Advanced should get +20% ehp per mass, but +50% cost
    Basic should get -20% cost per ehp, but require +50% block-count to archive the same ehp
    Standard has no such change at all.

    Everything should have modifies compared to standard, this would make them easier to compare!
    We have 4D and 6 measurements units (mass=kg, volume=m^3, materials={credits, capsules * rariety}, strength = {hitpoints, effective hitpoints}).

    This is mind-blowing, especially for newbies!
    Perhaps we need 1 block for every property and one standard block. (standard, mass, volume, mats, strength) - so that we have 1 block which is better in a certain category.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    I added a test ship made of this and shielding to the community content. if anyone is interested.
    Its ugly as sin and resembles a toybox.
    It would be interesting to see what other people's test results are. One thing I learned playing this game you can't always count on the same thing from different people.
    There is a good deal of free room in the ship. You can add what weapons you want to it.

    The ships design starts off with a primary ship and 4 docked sections each has its own power and shields.
    There is red,blue,yellow and green armor which are attached to their own docked entity in their own ways.
    With better planning I wouldn't have needed the black edges.