Quadruple armor without cheating

[GRHayes]

S is the current amount of shields remaining. It is described in the wiki link I provided even.
That is why the top one is 250K because total damage is 250K the smaller ones only have 37.5K
remaining over 100K. 100+37.5+37.5+37.5+37.5=250. That is 100 left on the primary shield. 37.5 left on each docked shield.

Primary is also an order of hierarchy.
You have the primary ship that everything is docked to. Then the docked shields that are technically secondary to the primary shield on the actual ship. The main shield is connect directly to the ship. The docked shields are connected secondarily.

 

[Lecic]

I'm going to be very thankful when all this garbage finally gets patched out.

 

[Az14el]

personally I don't really mind if my opponent wants to load 1 whole mass per single blocks space, my Pandora has a 350m long bulwark of adv armor, and the idea is still making me cringe as far as putting it on a ship. I just don't have the words to explain why any further :/

(totally not fitting this exact plate to sun-eater fortress scale. totally not.)

 

[NeonSturm]

Is this applicable to 3D armour or just to 2D armour?
If it just works on 2D armour (because of build limitations), it is actually only double armour (1 block armour, 1 block space to move the other plate inbetween).
But this space-in between can then be filled with ship interiors and modular rooms … which is mostly a buff to RP ships using this above/below their rooms.

I'm going to be very thankful when all this garbage finally gets patched out.

A patch is some random piece of metal melted to cover a leak in your ship's hull.
A fix is restoring the expected/demanded integrity.
You release a patch because you do not have a fix jet. But in every major update, patches should be reverted and fixes applied.

 

[Lecic]

A patch is some random piece of metal melted to cover a leak in your ship's hull.
A fix is restoring the expected/demanded integrity.
You release a patch because you do not have a fix jet. But in every major update, patches should be reverted and fixes applied.

I'm not going to argue semantics with you over something so trivial. I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish here, but it was stupid.

Is this applicable to 3D armour or just to 2D armour?
If it just works on 2D armour (because of build limitations), it is actually only double armour (1 block armour, 1 block space to move the other plate inbetween).
But this space-in between can then be filled with ship interiors and modular rooms … which is mostly a buff to RP ships using this above/below their rooms.

Sorry, what? How is this "only double armor" when it's clearly quadruple armor? And of course it works as 3D armor, you just need to build it that way.

 

[GRHayes]

I'm going to be very thankful when all this garbage finally gets patched out.

Why would it get patched out?
If they fix the blocks where they can't fit with in each other by changing their bounding box then those automatic doors that use them will also be effected.

If you are talking about the shields being able to help do what they do. Well I don't see how that is going to be fixed.
What are they going to stop shielding turrets and docked ships?
Are they suddenly going to make missiles and explosions only happen to one block?
Are talking about docked entities such as turrets and ships not having their own shields?

The entire thing that makes it possible and worth doing is the retarding of the shield to start with. You know that part in the formula 0.25*(1-0.5*S/C). If they didn't use a false premise that shields would operate different under combat conditions it wouldn't have created the situation in which this was possible or made sense to do.
If they get rid of that yep that would fix it. Otherwise they are just fighting math.

Even if they created a system that put all shields under combat condition if any shield attached to the ship is hit this would still be the best option mathematically.

 

[Valck]

Why would it get patched out?
If they fix the blocks where they can't fit with in each other by changing their bounding box then those automatic doors that use them will also be effected.

What needs patching are the armour/structure/HP/mass values for the various fractional blocks. Currently a tetra or a quarter slab has the same values as a full cube...

 

[GRHayes]

What needs patching are the armour/structure/HP/mass values for the various fractional blocks. Currently a tetra or a quarter slab has the same values as a full cube...

I could go along with that.
However to make a point armor is next to worthless in this game. This would be as effective if you put hull there.
Honestly you could build a better performing ship if you just lined the outer hull with docked cores. When they get destroyed they fall off.

About all armor is good for is a last defense to give a second or so more protecting some vital equipment and ship frame.

 

[Malacodor]

I'm going to be very thankful when all this garbage finally gets patched out.

I was thinking the same. I really don't want to be forced to make such complicated and lag-inducing stuff to stay competitive.

However, there's an important point everyone seems to have missed so far (unless it escaped me). While a 500k shield pool does regenerate slower after a 300k hit than a 400k shield pool, the 500k pool regenerates faster than the 400k pool after a 400k hit. The regeneration rate at 0% is exactly zero for the first 10 seconds, and if there's another hit after these 10 s, then the shield will be down for another 10 s.

 

[GRHayes]

I was thinking the same. I really don't want to be forced to make such complicated and lag-inducing stuff to stay competitive.

However, there's an important point everyone seems to have missed so far (unless it escaped me). While a 500k shield pool does regenerate slower after a 300k hit than a 400k shield pool, the 500k pool regenerates faster than the 400k pool after a 400k hit. The regeneration rate at 0% is exactly zero for the first 10 seconds, and if there's another hit after these 10 s, then the shield will be down for another 10 s.

The point of the distribution system is taking the same materials and getting the highest recharge rate.
There isn't a size limit this can be used to. Whatever the game lets you make before clunking out is the only limit.
Unless the attack is strong enough to eat the shields on the docked shield systems and get through to the primary in a single hit you could very well recharge fast enough for the next missile hit. Granted that depends on the size of what is attacking you.

It is possible to build a ship that can recharge the outer shields in 1 second. They then would have to match in damage what the inner shield systems charge rate is in damage per second. Right now that would be about 4 to 8 times the power of normal.

 

[NeonSturm]

My attempt on a dirty patch:

Shields without ion-hardening should be damage-transparent:

0…100% charge lets 100…0% damage through to the blocks.​

Ion-hardening:

Additionally to increasing shield-resistance per shield-point, they lower the damage-transparency.

100 shields + 100 effects = 67% effect = 150% as effective as additional (capacitors+recharger).
100 shields + 50 effects = 50% effect = 150% as effective as additional (capacitors+recharger).
But they require continuous space and a lot of power.

67% effect = 33% damage.
67% effect = 0…33% charge lets 100…0% damage through to the blocks.
This is a fair amount of opaque shielding (like now).
​

If they hit a 10% shield and 90% or 70% (with ion effect) gets through, they will adequately punish you for putting the block-hp together into 1meter-cubed (by making these blocks being killed in the same tick).

Shields from the main entity only help the turret shields if the main entity has 50% higher shields than the turret.
Thus 0…33% on the turret is 50…83 on the main entity – block damage starts when the main entity falls below 83%.
​

Note: Remember, I said "dirty" patch because peoples continue using the word "patch" as if it would mean "clean fix".

 

[Comradecolonel]

I'd like to see some real combat tests with this. It sounds good on paper but it seems to me like in real combat it would fall apart pretty easily.

I also second the motion that stuff like this should be patched out because it seems pretty silly from a gameplay standpoint.

 

[Lecic]

Why would it get patched out?
If they fix the blocks where they can't fit with in each other by changing their bounding box then those automatic doors that use them will also be effected.

If you are talking about the shields being able to help do what they do. Well I don't see how that is going to be fixed.
What are they going to stop shielding turrets and docked ships?
Are they suddenly going to make missiles and explosions only happen to one block?
Are talking about docked entities such as turrets and ships not having their own shields?

The entire thing that makes it possible and worth doing is the retarding of the shield to start with. You know that part in the formula 0.25*(1-0.5*S/C). If they didn't use a false premise that shields would operate different under combat conditions it wouldn't have created the situation in which this was possible or made sense to do.
If they get rid of that yep that would fix it. Otherwise they are just fighting math.

Even if they created a system that put all shields under combat condition if any shield attached to the ship is hit this would still be the best option mathematically.

A possible solution would be to rebalance shields to not have a downward curve and to have docked entities and the mothership all share one big shield pool. This would fix a lot of the issues with docked ion/composite armor and add more possibilities for modular vessels. It would also be a slight buff for turrets and stations, since stations would now fully protect their turrets.

I could go along with that.
However to make a point armor is next to worthless in this game. This would be as effective if you put hull there.
Honestly you could build a better performing ship if you just lined the outer hull with docked cores. When they get destroyed they fall off.

About all armor is good for is a last defense to give a second or so more protecting some vital equipment and ship frame.

Armor is incredibly strong and people drastically underestimate its power. Advanced armor is cheaper than shields and provides a whopping 4000 EHP per block with full passives and AHP. Not to mention how well armor neutralizes missile blast radii.

 

[Zyrr]

I could go along with that.
However to make a point armor is next to worthless in this game. This would be as effective if you put hull there.
Honestly you could build a better performing ship if you just lined the outer hull with docked cores. When they get destroyed they fall off.

About all armor is good for is a last defense to give a second or so more protecting some vital equipment and ship frame.

This is so unbelievably wrong I'm not even sure how to respond. My only explanation is that the last time you played this game was more than a year ago, if at all.

 

[Comradecolonel]

Armor is incredibly strong and people drastically underestimate its power. Advanced armor is cheaper than shields and provides a whopping 4000 EHP per block with full passives and AHP. Not to mention how well armor neutralizes missile blast radii.

Just made an armor tanking ship the other day and it feels like a god among men. Armor is pretty stronk but I rarely see people use it effectively. A lot of ships I've seen just use a skin tight layer of advanced armor. Might as well just use hull at that point on larger ships.

 

[NeonSturm]

Just made an armor tanking ship the other day and it feels like a god among men. Armor is pretty stronk but I rarely see people use it effectively. A lot of ships I've seen just use a skin tight layer of advanced armor. Might as well just use hull at that point on larger ships.

Only when you want to bear all that weight during non-combat times.
If you have the choice between 2/3 armor, 1/3 weapons and 1/3 armour and 2/3 weapons, the weapons are the better choice.

In my opinion, shields are too light and should be heavier. Perhaps shield capacitors could be armour-like blocks (with their weight).
Real-life batteries and condensators weight a lot too.

Blocks should not be balanced just by block cost, but by space and mass - that's a point which is missed here.

 

[GRHayes]

This is so unbelievably wrong I'm not even sure how to respond. My only explanation is that the last time you played this game was more than a year ago, if at all.

You are missing the point the Armor isn't the protection with the high recharging shields are. The armor is always a last resort.
Besides that I tested the left vs right mouse out again here recently and it took nothing to cut through 51 x 51 x 51 advanced armor.
Staggered barrel systems still are the most effective systems.
Left Mouse vs Right Mouse

 

[Lecic]

You are missing the point the Armor isn't the protection with the high recharging shields are. The armor is always a last resort.
Besides that I tested the left vs right mouse out again here recently and it took nothing to cut through 51 x 51 x 51 advanced armor.
Staggered barrel systems still are the most effective systems.
Left Mouse vs Right Mouse

Having used both heavy armor tanks and missile/cannon weapons, I can assure you that you are wrong on both of these things. Armor gives you hilariously high durability and staggered missiles do not work nearly as well in actual combat.

 

[Az14el]

*Staggered Cannon Barrels however will, armor really does give you "hilariously high durability" against missiles (for a time), obviously beams, & mass output but weak cannons.

a 51x51x51 of adv, hell, with every single block individually shield injected, Ion supported & Piercing buffed can be turned into slag by Ion weapons with the tiniest understanding of schema math (and not the fuzzy broken parts, the purely intended "this is how weapons work" parts)

You need shieldage, you need RECHARGE, meaning you need power, meaning you NEED your volume, this is where you put blocks that do things. Armor is incredible EHP for its cost yes (almost 10 HP per credit spent in fact). But it does NOT supply all that to your AHP, and it does NOT cover & buff every part of the ship like capacitator & recharger together does.

Armor protects shields systems protects AHP protects armor, thrust protects everything, and your weapons & power banks make your tankiness actually matter. I'm not saying I have the perfect ratios, I've been all over (almost entirely armor based, entirely docked recharge based, heavy layered modular armor on a systems tank, and pure capacity, w/e), but the one thing I can tell you for absolute certain is that the smaller you are, the more surface area compared to volume you have, and if you're surface is all fancy armor it can easily outweigh the actual insides. Then a same mass ship comes along who spent that weight on weapons literally 2-3 times as powerful, or recharge that your limited systems can't break. Think of a pirate station, those can take some hits compared to a ship its size right? because they have fuck all systems to actually hit and you're chewing through mostly armor, right?. They also can't destroy anything larger than an Isanth, or even properly power their mediocre weapons. That's armor for you.

Basically weight sucks so much more than people realize. It's not what you have to sacrifice for the weight, it's what the competition DOESN'T Sacrifice. Every block of armor is making you a larger ship with smaller guns, less power & weaker shielding. Necessary to an extent to survive alpha damage, but don't forget it. Or you'll just end up honeycombed by the follow up delta damage.

 

[Lecic]

*Staggered Cannon Barrels however will, armor really does give you "hilariously high durability" against missiles (for a time), obviously beams, & mass output but weak cannons.

a 51x51x51 of adv, hell, with every single block individually shield injected, Ion supported & Piercing buffed can be turned into slag by Ion weapons with the tiniest understanding of schema math (and not the fuzzy broken parts, the purely intended "this is how weapons work" parts)

You need shieldage, you need RECHARGE, meaning you need power, meaning you NEED your volume, this is where you put blocks that do things. Armor is incredible EHP for its cost yes (almost 10 HP per credit spent in fact). But it does NOT supply all that to your AHP, and it does NOT cover & buff every part of the ship like capacitator & recharger together does.

Armor protects shields systems protects AHP protects armor, thrust protects everything, and your weapons & power banks make your tankiness actually matter. I'm not saying I have the perfect ratios, I've been all over (almost entirely armor based, entirely docked recharge based, heavy layered modular armor on a systems tank, and pure capacity, w/e), but the one thing I can tell you for absolute certain is that the smaller you are, the more surface area compared to volume you have, and if you're surface is all fancy armor it can easily outweigh the actual insides. Then a same mass ship comes along who spent that weight on weapons literally 2-3 times as powerful, or recharge that your limited systems can't break. Think of a pirate station, those can take some hits compared to a ship its size right? because they have fuck all systems to actually hit and you're chewing through mostly armor, right?. They also can't destroy anything larger than an Isanth, or even properly power their mediocre weapons. That's armor for you.

Basically weight sucks so much more than people realize. It's not what you have to sacrifice for the weight, it's what the competition DOESN'T Sacrifice. Every block of armor is making you a larger ship with smaller guns, less power & weaker shielding. Necessary to an extent to survive alpha damage, but don't forget it. Or you'll just end up honeycombed by the follow up delta damage.

Weight means nothing. Block count is your base variable to compare everything else with. Sure, a significantly larger ship that only uses a single layer of basic hull might have the same MASS as my much smaller ship that uses multiple layers of advanced, and it might be glassy enough to counter the armor before mine can kill yours, but you also have far more blocks, and that's hardly fair, now is it?