Prerelease v0.200.250

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,167
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    This is a definitional retreat
    It's what I meant in the first place, not a retreat.

    This is an ad hominem and whats worse is you seem to not understand that my point is no less valid just because the manner triggers you or someone else.
    This has no bearing on the current argument and is therefore not an ad hominem. It's a comment about your annoying and abrasive debate style. Maybe I should put it simply: You're making yourself sound dumber than you are. Please stop doing that.
     

    Calhoun

    Part-time God
    Joined
    May 26, 2015
    Messages
    872
    Reaction score
    237
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    • Thinking Positive
    Interior = additional structure and armor HP. A ship with interior always has a higher ratio of armor and structure HP to other systems than a ship with only a hull, or with hull/armor only in specific places. Generally it's a good idea to take advantage of the armor HP the extra hull blocks provide by installing armor effects and/or using heavy armor in critical areas.
    First of all, there are a grand total of zero decoration blocks that add armour HP.

    Secondly, the extra tankiness that decorations and interior give are helpful in virtually every single type of ship.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,167
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    Making strawman arguments by taking what you said as what you said
    My apologies for not fully fortifying my previous post against misinterpretation.
    [doublepost=1512960416,1512960321][/doublepost]Lecic Did you know there's a disagree rating? EDIT: Oh, look. The Dock did something stupid again. Never mind.

    [doublepost=1512960557][/doublepost]
    First of all, there are a grand total of zero decoration blocks that add armour HP.
    There are a grand total of zero general-purpose, multi-shaped plain wall blocks that add no armor HP. You use hull.

    Secondly, the extra tankiness that decorations and interior give are helpful in virtually every single type of ship.
    If you add the same weight in shields, you're most likely going to be better off.
     
    G

    GDPR 302420

    Guest
    Hostility/Flaming I
    This has no bearing on the current argument and is therefore not an ad hominem. It's a comment about your annoying and abrasive debate style. Maybe I should put it simply: You're making yourself sound dumber than you are. Please stop doing that.

    Are you honestly this dense?

    It's what I meant in the first place, not a retreat.
    "Oh shit my statement has been called out as wrong... oh fuck I need to quickly think of a way to counter this logic. Oh I know I will just say that what I said was not what I said!"

    You are not fooling anybody.
     
    G

    GDPR 302420

    Guest
    Can we leave the "PvP group vs RP group" stuff please, and actually go back too how this update effects stuff like combat and ship building. No matter which group builds it?
    If I leave the RPers who don't have a clue what they are talking about free to spread misinformation then that is what they will do, spread misinformation.

    Do you know what happens when a newer player reads misinformation from someone who claims to have a clue? Monkey see monkey do.
     

    Top 4ce

    Force or Ace?
    Joined
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages
    527
    Reaction score
    274
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 9
    If I leave the RPers who don't have a clue what they are talking about free to spread misinformation then that is what they will do, spread misinformation.

    Do you know what happens when a newer player reads misinformation from someone who claims to have a clue? Monkey see monkey do.
    I agree to that logic, however this "you said, I said" stuff is derailing the tread and actual useful info gets buried.

    Just say whats incorrect (as you and others have) and move on.
     

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,107
    Reaction score
    1,228
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    The problem may not exist in the hardcore PVP world, but it’s very real and very troublesome for the rest of us.
    Your "problem" does not exist. Your argument is wrong. PvP ships can be built with RP interiors just fine. You are basing your perceived problem off of dimensions instead of mass. Of course two identical ships, one which is 20% empty interior volume, and one which is 100% systems, will have the one with 100% systems win, because it has 20% more systems! But it also has 20% more MASS. If you had two ships with identical masses but one was 20% interior by volume and the other had none, they would be equivalent performers in combat, because their MASS is the same, and balance should be based on MASS.

    The reason RP ships lose to PvP ship builders is because they focused on aesthetics, with systems as an afterthought. They lose because they use poorly designed systems, not because interiors make a ship unable to compete.

    The new system balances off dimensions. This is a poor way to balance because not everyone wants to build long (or tall, or wide) and thin ships.

    The old power allowed ships of equal size to have big differences in their power. The rule for pvp was: You tried to stuff in as much system blocks as possible in the least space possible.

    This old power prevented rp-builders from participating in pvp, if they didn't want to gut their interiors.
    No, JinM, we have explained this to you many times. Stop making this argument. Ship balance was mass based, as it should be, and RP interior doesn't prevent you from making a PvP capable ship.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: GnomeKing

    Top 4ce

    Force or Ace?
    Joined
    Jul 25, 2013
    Messages
    527
    Reaction score
    274
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 9
    If RPers would accept when they are wrong rather then trying to argue it, then this would work.
    If you know your right, and can back it up (which you can and have), it doesn't matter if one accepts that they are wrong.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,167
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    The reason RP ships lose to PvP ship builders is because they focused on aesthetics, with systems as an afterthought. They lose because they use poorly designed systems, not because interiors make a ship unable to compete.
    That's not the correct way to build an RP warship. That's the correct way to build a yacht, which I've only seen two people do. It's better to build functionally with some idea of aesthetics in mind, then work on making it look good. That's how all the successful RP-PVP hybrids have been done.

    Even so, if you strip all the hull off these ships and replace the weight with shields, you're probably going to be better off in a fight. It'll last longer before you start taking system damage.

    The comparison between a ship with interior and a brick of systems is thus in the old system:
    The brick of systems has less overall surface area compared to its system volume, and thus needs less armor, if you even bother putting armor on it. Personally, I wouldn't bother except on the front.
    The ship with interior has more overall surface area, so it needs more armor blocks if you want to cover it completely with standard or heavy armor.

    This leads to a general trend of decorated ships being primarily tanks, or being poorly shielded. Why? Because in order to decorate ship, you invariably move in the direction of armor/structure tank. The trend strengthens if you look at ships that have a lot of long projections like fins or nacelles, because they have more exterior surface area compared to interior volme. This was a big improvement from the coredrilling era, but it's not as good as it could be.

    Stabilizers were an attempt to alleviate the tendency to stuff every possible cubic meter with systems. They failed, instead moving the meta toward ships with one very long dimension. You could argue that this is redundant with the new, smaller systems, but it's really not since people will still try to cram everything together to reduce the number of armor blocks required to cover the ship.

    Giving larger box dimensions a practical purpose helps to keep ships from just being a tightly packed mass of systems, but it could also lead to a meta where stabilizers are just little floating blobs a kilometer from the ship. The thing is, even without stabilizers, people can place things in little floating blobs a kilometer from the ship. They just need a separate shield for each one. Rolling the ship would make them very hard to hit. That could get annoying fast.

    You could add a chunk-wise moment-of-inertia calculation as a tradeoff for stabilizer distance. Unfortunately that would just lead to the pods being as small as possible with no connection to the main ship. You'd have to connect them with conduits and have severe consequences for destroyed conduits.

    That could actually work. You've got a mechanical reason for larger box dimensions compared to your amount of systems, but an equally important reason for connecting the projecting pieces and protecting the projections. Thoughts from the prosecution?
     
    • Like
    Reactions: klawxx

    Lecic

    Convicted Lancake Abuser
    Joined
    Apr 14, 2013
    Messages
    5,107
    Reaction score
    1,228
    • Thinking Positive Gold
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 11
    Even so, if you strip all the hull off these ships and replace the weight with shields, you're probably going to be better off in a fight. It'll last longer before you start taking system damage.
    Are we talking about interior or external hull now?

    Interiors are comprised of decoratives and usually basic hull, which weigh next to nothing, and are mostly EMPTY SPACE, which weighs literally nothing. Your "theory" that ships with interiors are pushed towards armor tanks because otherwise it would be "wasted space" is just wrong. Interiors on ships are not a large chunk of their mass. It's just not enough to make a sizeable difference.

    Stabilizers were an attempt to alleviate the tendency to stuff every possible cubic meter with systems.
    I don't know why people think "system stuffing" is a problem. It is not. If you want people to need empty space in their ships that they should, presumably, put interior into, ADD CREW TO THE GAME. FORCING PEOPLE TO HAVE EMPTY USELESS SPACE IN THEIR SHIPS IS JUST ANNOYING.

    You could add a chunk-wise moment-of-inertia calculation as a tradeoff for stabilizer distance. Unfortunately that would just lead to the pods being as small as possible with no connection to the main ship. You'd have to connect them with conduits and have severe consequences for destroyed conduits.

    That could actually work. You've got a mechanical reason for larger box dimensions compared to your amount of systems, but an equally important reason for connecting the projecting pieces and protecting the projections. Thoughts from the prosecution?
    Or just remove stabilizers. Because they do nothing for the game. Because a system that is just "place some blocks X distance from your reactor because we say so" is boring. There is no reason for a "mechanical reason for larger box dims vs system amount" mechanic to be in the game in the first place. No one who actually builds systems wants it. It's a stupid system to try and appease people who don't actually care about systems anyway.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,167
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    I don't know why people think "system stuffing" is a problem.
    Because building feels like you're filling a shell with expanding foam rather than building machinery.

    Are we talking about interior or external hull now?
    Both. Rip it all off and replace the weight with shields.

    Interiors are comprised of decoratives and usually basic hull, which weigh next to nothing, and are mostly EMPTY SPACE, which weighs literally nothing. Your "theory" that ships with interiors are pushed towards armor tanks because otherwise it would be "wasted space" is just wrong. Interiors on ships are not a large chunk of their mass. It's just not enough to make a sizeable difference.
    Interiors on a mid-sized ship can contribute something like 20% or more of a ship's mass even if they're made entirely of hull and deco blocks. The reason they weigh so much is that surface area is related to internal volume. More volume, more armor to cover it. The "weight" of empty space is equal to the amount of extra armor you need to cover over whatever you've made. To clarify: If you take out all the interior and minmax all the systems in the smallest possible volume, you might cut as much as 20% off the ship's mass (assuming you're using armor on the outside, not wet cardboard aka hull). If you just remove the decorations and walls and leave the holes between the system blocks, you might get 10% off the mass.

    Regardless of the additional skin armor, you've got all that hull in there that's going to give you armor HP. You can take advantage of the extra armor HP by replacing your lightweight hull with armor, or you can stick with shield tanking and essentially have a lot of dead weight that doesn't help your durability much at the end of the day.

    To make matters worse, if your external hull is just lightweight hull instead of armor, it serves no purpose other than decoration, so it's just dead weight too. That's about another 5-10% mass. Best case scenario, you've got a ship that's around 10% dead weight by mass. Worst case, 20% or so. Depends on how much interior you've got and how complex the shape of the hull is.

    Stuff like nacelles or fins increase the ratio of surface area to system volume. Unless you're making good use of the armor HP, that's bad.

    This is always going to be the case for ships with interior unless we get some weird weightless blocks. Then you could stack a weightless cosmetic interior on top of your armor. But I don't really want dumb weightless blocks.

    Anyway, unless you really like armor tanking, stuff like extra fins and pieces that stick way out off the hull are out of the question. They're too heavy for what they contribute. That's going to be even worse with the new power system unless we have something that justifies expanded box dimensions, because structure HP isn't a thing anymore. All we get out of the fin or tower or whatever is armor HP. Either make the most of it, or it's useless extra weight that you'd be better off without.
     
    Joined
    May 25, 2014
    Messages
    84
    Reaction score
    22
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    when i get in a cannon computer it will not let me fire. is this part of this update? or did i miss something? this used to be a thing...
     

    FlyingDebris

    Vaygr loves my warhead bat.
    Joined
    Sep 6, 2013
    Messages
    2,458
    Reaction score
    1,312
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Councillor Gold
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    why anybody is even listening to RP players about game balance and PvP players about RP shit in the first place is beyond me
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Coyote27