Prerelease v0.200.250

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    I will ask in the meeting tomorrow if we can reduce distance then.
    Criss, the problem with stabs IS the distance mechanic. It will make absolutely no difference if you reduce the distance requirement or not. The mechanic itself needs to be changed because it is inherently unbalanced, and I can prove it if you'll listen.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    I think that makes sense though. Our previous system isn't intuitive. To get the most out of power you need to spread it in maze-like strands throughout the largest dimensions of your ship? That's not what we think of when it comes to conventional reactors in fiction.
    To be fair, we don't generally think of having to put a big blob of machinery on one end and another big blob of machinery on the other end of a ship in fiction, either.
     
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    To be fair, we don't generally think of having to put a big blob of machinery on one end and another big blob of machinery on the other end of a ship in fiction, either.
    Normally it's a reactor in the back and big ass gun in the front. The stabilizers are a pain when your gun takes up the front of your ship.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Normally it's a reactor in the back and big ass gun in the front. The stabilizers are a pain when your gun takes up the front of your ship.
    Sometimes, but almost never ALL the way back by necessity unless it's something where the reactor is also a part of the engine. Typically you see reactors roughly amidships, or if they're further aft they'll at least be some distance forward of the engines.
     
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    I will ask in the meeting tomorrow if we can reduce distance then.
    Sorry but reducing stabilizers distance won't change a thing.

    Stabilizers works at perfection in the way they were designed aka forcing players to have empty space. Of course the worst scenario being island ships. Or needles if you want to keep something at least looking as a space ship.
    Reducing the distance to the point where it isn't a hassle on building just means that stabilizers are useless. They're just another different reactor bloc with a different name and a different texture.

    You should really just build or refit with the new system several ships.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    You should really just build or refit with the new system several ships.
    This. And preferably not the Transit, Prospect, or Ward, as those will work better than usual. Come to think of it, not any of the Trading Guild ships either except for maybe the T180 freighter (ok, maybe not, as that thing is nearly hollow)... or...

    GAH. Looking over all the NPC ships you guys built, most of them have systems space arranged in fairly long configurations along the Z-axis, and not much more width or height than would be needed for chambers and engines in the back. This system works quite well for this style of ship. Try fitting something roughly triangular, rectangular, or just generally large on more than a single axis. :\

    Maybe the Blitz, Kontos/Xyston, or the stations? Pioneer possibly?
     
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    It won't work on npc ships, there will still be empty space all over them that can't be filled or some annoying stuff about the way you place your systems.

    But well, i can provide some ships for Criss to play with if he wants to.
     
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    Yes, but not ALL the way back by necessity. Typically you see reactors roughly amidships, or if they're further aft they'll at least be a good ways forward of the engines.
    I did not mean all the way in the back, I ment relatively. After all if you are sitting in the back seat of a car you are not saying on the very back of said car, the trunk is usually there.

    I may have found another flaw, or inconsistency.
    Taking out the ship cores used to be the way to kill a ship. Thankfully that was removed and replaced with total ship HP. But at the time it promoted a tactic referred to as corring, and if I remeber corectly it was hated. With the abuility to stun a ship by hitting its reactor, are we not going back to this? Sure the target is bigger, but that just makes it worse.
    This would make cannons more viable, but armor would become again useless. Right now armor acts as a damage sponge, something you can afford to loose instead of system HP. And advanced armor dose a good job of stopping missiles if used right.
    But if a reactor can be put out of comition, or temporarily stunned by a singal shot then every one will build cannons and beams that can cut through a ship in one shot. At that point the only defense will be shields.
     

    Ithirahad

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    I did not mean all the way in the back, I ment relatively. After all if you are sitting in the back seat of a car you are not saying on the very back of said car, the trunk is usually there.
    Yes, but my point is that this system encourages putting the reactor as far back (or forward) as is practical, potentially behind your thrusters. That isn't typical in Sci-Fi designs.
     
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    Yes, but my point is that this system encourages putting the reactor as far back (or forward) as is practical, potentially behind your thrusters. That isn't typical in Sci-Fi designs.
    I would agree with you. It also means you can't hide your reactor. You have 50/50 chans of guessing where the reactor is.
     
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    Then I'm being told to whittle down various blocks to a point so that a very obscure bit of damage penetration numbers maximize it's effectiveness. Whether it's because a casual player doesn't even look at that stuff, or because a casual player doesn't really care, it just made the process a bit more tedious.
    but you didnt have to do any of this... the option simply exists. like why use a battleship round when a 50 cal will do fine lol

    anyway im not looking to nitpick or criticize your personal build style, id like to know if removing this kind of thing is the direction the games headed in from a company perspective.
     
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    If we need to introduce decent AI factions into the game with their own assets,
    No... By the stars, PLEASE NO!

    There is no more need for NPCs in this game than the occasional pirate wave.
    Since the AI factions received their current update, servers usually need to completely block them, lest they overburden the system and break the game.

    I can get all the complex interaction I need out of player factions. Let the AI do what players don't like: Getting shot at.

    See, it's yet another one of those little infuriating things; Years ago the system worked sort of like that, until somebody decided to "improve" upon it.
     

    Lecic

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    Okay, great. But when someone that works on the assets for the game finds little enjoyment in how to optimize a ship, vs the system that came out I think that's saying something. A system like chambers is something I've wanted for a while. It was something we would have done solely with crew before. If math is going to be in the game, then it can be simple. You yourself have already expressed concern over learning curve. Well personally I'd rather not tell a new player that they need to learn the power formulas that the game runs on just to get the most out of this game.
    And I agree... I really like the chambers system. I think it's easier for a new player to learn than power lines, and I think it has more depth than the old effects system did. But stabilizers, while being a bad mechanic for attempting to force empty space but really just optimizing needles and dumbbells, also are a strange mechanic for a new player to learn. A new player is just going to be confused why their ship needs these weird stabilizers at the front of their ship, and they're going to get annoyed by a giant power beam going through everything.

    A good learning curve in a game like Starmade is one where the basics are easy to learn and there's a safe plateau for players who don't really care about optimization to reside, but there's also a steep cliff after that plateau for those who really want to get into the nitty gritty. And I think the stabilizers are an unnecessary steep part of an otherwise comfortable slope up to the plateau, as well as something that ruins the nitty gritty.

    I will ask in the meeting tomorrow if we can reduce distance then.
    Why not ask if they can just be fully removed? As others have said, their only purpose is to force dimensions, and if you reduce the distance enough to where they don't effect length anymore, what is even the point of them?

    I HUMBLY ASK THE COMMUNITY TO DESCRIBE WHICH BUILD PROCESS THEY USE, TO PROVIDE INSIGHT.
    I usually use style 2 when I build my own (PvP) ships, but I'm not very good at aesthetics on anything large (my biggest RP design is a shuttle of dubious quality...), so usually the hull and interior is offset to an RP builder in the faction and then I fill it up with systems, aka style 1. Otherwise the result is pretty ugly, as anyone who played in Arstotzka/FCM will tell you about the Visegrad/Csonigrad class ships- and that was AFTER Zyrr and Boroski tried to make it look better.

    No... By the stars, PLEASE NO!

    There is no more need for NPCs in this game than the occasional pirate wave.
    Since the AI factions received their current update, servers usually need to completely block them, lest they overburden the system and break the game.

    I can get all the complex interaction I need out of player factions. Let the AI do what players don't like: Getting shot at.

    See, it's yet another one of those little infuriating things; Years ago the system worked sort of like that, until somebody decided to "improve" upon it.
    I agree that NPC factions are pretty unnecessary in multiplayer, but they are very important for SP.
     
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    My question right now is why even have reactor stabilizers in the game? They don't make any intuitive sense to making an actual reactor work (why would anyone put vital reactor components far away from an actual reactor?) and thus seem like a very abstract concept. Even when the concept of stabilizers is understood, then a player must make a forced design decision to put their reactor at one end of the ship and then stabilizers at the other to maximize the power output to put as many functioning shields, weapons, etc. in their ship as possible.

    From my understanding, the problem with not having stabilizers is that that sort of system would not allow more RP focused ships to function effectively compared to more combat-focused ships, as the added interior in them takes up precious mass and space that could instead be dedicated to system blocks in order to maximize ship capabilities. Thus, the stabilizers were added in to reduce the amount of systems that could be utilized in any given ship compared to its size, creating more room for interior because no more systems could be added in the ship without exceeding its reactor's capabilities.

    What if we just make that interior actually serve a purpose and remove stabilizers? The most obvious way to do this that comes to mind is to add crew. This could require housing for the crew within a ship, mess halls to feed them, stations for them to work the various ship systems and pathways for them to get from place to place. The functionality of the crew could make up for all of this space required to use them by providing substantial bonuses to the systems that they man. As system sizes increase, more crew could be required to provide the same sort of bonuses, which would require more interior to house them. This would scale the amount of interior required to efficiently run a ship to the size of the ship.
     
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    What if we just make that interior actually serve a purpose? The most obvious way to do this that comes to mind is to add crew.
    This wont fix stabilizers because the issue with them is not really about the empty space they create. It's about the imbalance it creates when two ship that are the same length produce the same power but have drastically different sizes and resource costs.
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    Criss, tbh I see some merit in the concept of stabilisers. I even see what the team attempted to achieve with it. Quite a few people want them gone, but I do like a mechanic that could affect reactor efficiency/volatility. This post is probably going to be unpopular, but I do want to see a stabilising mechanic in the game - as in most sci-fi, fusion reactors or even antimatter reactors require a lot of cooling mechanisms, containment fields, and other safeties.
    The distance, and what it forces, is the problem. Usually these safeties are CLOSE to the reactor, not far from it, with the exception of one thing: excess heat radiators. There are plenty of heat mechanics proposals that discuss this. I see why the stabilisers were introduced, but here's an immortal saying from the world of education:
    "If you want people to hate someting, enforce it."
    As shown in the numerous posts above, interiors are no exception. Especially if the execution of encouraging interiors is this sloppy.
    I think min/maxer meta builders will always be an issue. They have been in all the other block building games too. Robocraft had triforcing, Empyrion has spaced/triangled/layered armor and underground bases shooting through the ground, and I'm pretty sure (although only those who played it can confirm me) that Space Engineers also has its meta. Hell, even ARK had its lowered foundation battle rafts, or invincible platform dino tanks. It's the way of the game, there will always be players who will use every exploit and loophole they can find. As hard as it is, you gonna have to make a decision what will lose you more players: trying to fight meta or letting people build whatever they want, because every update you aim to make it harder for meta builders to build meta, hurts the casual players too, who just want to build what they like.
    A nice example is now suddenly throwing in the beam between the reactor and stabilisers: people who were getting used to the new mechanic and adapted the new placement suddenly found themselves having to deal with a giant red beam of ugly in addition to everything else, probably going through a lot of rooms as people tend to place the core, core room, and reactor parts, along the ship's center line.

    The most appealing thing in Starmade was in the trailer: Build anything, build everything. And the ability to make that anything/everything function, fly around, and shoot like a "real" sci-fi spaceship. You're hurting exactly that, when trying to force or positively/negatively discriminate certain design choices.
    At some point the question will rise: Do you guys want to develop a game appealing for a wide playerbase, or a game appealing to the Schine team, and which of those is higher priority if both are factors? Because ignoring the warnings, advices, complaints and constructive feedback of players with 4+ years and more than a thousand hours each in the game points definitely to the latter.
    Through the years, there were plenty of player suggestions that found themselves into the game. The biggest one was the planets' current shape. We, the community, can, and do provide useful feedback, so please consider that feedback.
    Sometimes, what you want to hear the least, is what you need to hear the most.
    So, the challenge is, to tune the szabiliser/reactor mechanic to
    - Make several different ship shapes and placement options viable
    - Still keep it simple and entertaining instead of making it a pain in the ass to build.
    Also, PLEASE prepare tutorial material for the release. Just for the occasional clueless newbie who'll be even more clueless when he sees the old videos and tries to build in the new system.
     
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    My question right now is why even have reactor stabilizers in the game?
    From the lovely Criss :
    "The goal was to create a system that prevented players from filling their ship to the absolute brim with reactors and systems.

    Regardless, that is why we used stabilizers. The engineering aspect came from chambers. If stabilizers is the wrong way to do it, then perhaps we can fix it with crew quarters instead. Removing them basically goes back on our efforts to combat those problems with large-scale building. I'd rather fix them than remove them entirely and have wasted a lot of time.


    I will ask in the meeting tomorrow if we can reduce distance then. What I meant is that crew can be the alternative to adding interior space to ships instead of the stabilizer mechanic.
    "


    ______________________________________________________________________

    What if we just make that interior actually serve a purpose? The most obvious way to do this that comes to mind is to add crew.

    Dev Response:
    "That is the exact same system I was thinking of regarding crew. It may be something others have seen. I do not know what specifics Schema might have in mind."

    ________________________________________________________________________________________


    This wont fix stabilizers because the issue with them is not really about the empty space they create. It's about the imbalance it creates when two ship that are the same length produce the same power but have drastically different sizes and resource costs.
    Dev Response:
    "Mind you all, I personally have no problem changing stabilizers or removing them. I get the concern and if what you are saying is true I will find myself in a world of hurt when we get to renovating our assets. I will see what's up tomorrow."
     
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    FlyingDebris

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    Seems to me the general consensus is that chambers are really neat while stabilizers are totally fucked.
     
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    Thank you for clearly delineating this! My bad.
    It takes a bit of reading, but it does seem like we are on the right track now :3
    At least Criss understands the issues, and wants to find a solution.
    The conflict comes from wanting to not encourage ships to be full of power/systems, which Stabalizors did not acheive.
    Some type of crew or chamber system could fufill this purpose, which is being looked at (although no one knows what work Schema has done on it).

    Just to add a bit more:

    "There are two systems, stabilizers, and reactors. These two systems only have 1 relationship with each other: distance. I do not see how I can use "3d space". It's already in 3d space. If you ask for more than distance, you're asking for either specific shapes, box dimensions or coordinates. None of these three sound any more appealing. The old power system is the closest thing I can think of that would be called "3d" space, as it used box dimensions to calculate power per grouping.

    If there is something I am missing I'd like to know. For the record I like the additive stabilizer mechanic.
    "


    "
    Okay, that makes sense. What I need to know is how you would change this from a one dimensional issue into a multi-dimensional solution. I'm not sure I could see it any way other than the three examples I gave earlier. Additive stabilizers does not seem to do it for me. It makes non-needle ships more attractive shapes, but I still feel like needle ships using that system would be the best solution."
     
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