Prerelease v0.200.250

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    That they should be fired, because they´re more concerned with creating purely cosmetic assets, and not things to be used in the game and therefore see gameplay as a nuisance rather than, you know, THE FUCKING POINT OF A GAME. GET A FUCKING COLORING BOOK YOU USELESS FUCK.
    That is completly un-appropiate hostily and disguisting behaviour. It is fine is disgree, but this is not how you talk to anyone.
    Reported.
     

    Matt_Bradock

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    Not gonna repeat that, but it was excessive
    RIP Raisinbat, we will miss you... you really went overboard this time. Even though I understand the anger that was unnecessary. This is the reason Schine doesn't want to communicate with us.
     
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    1. Build the hull first, with estimations of how the internal volume will be to match your desired end mass. Build an interior, as detailed as you want it to be. Build the power grid, to the best efficiency for the internal volume. Fill the rest with systems and fine tune them to be the most efficient for the end mass. (PvE, aesthetic builders mostly, and myself)
    2. Build the interior rooms first. Build systems around it, until you match the stats you desired, and have a rough shape of what you want it to look. Build a hull around it, add detailing to exterior and interior to your liking. (PvP builders mostly)
    3. Don't give a **** about looks and build only systems, in the shape currently most efficient (or a brick) to match the stats you want with the least amount of blocks used. Interior only consists of a control room and access to it. Leave as is, to spare mass, or cover it with one or more layers of standards/advanced armor (PvP min/maxers and meta builders).

    I HUMBLY ASK THE COMMUNITY TO DESCRIBE WHICH BUILD PROCESS THEY USE, TO PROVIDE INSIGHT.
    Thank you for your constructive post!
    The way I personaly built is either No.1 ForShips I wanted to replicate from Scfi etc, or by building in blocks of systems, and then moulding a ship shape out of them (Like playdough), sometimes starting with an interior.
    I found starting with something concrete and building around it helps a lot as well, rarely did I have an idea on how much power or even what Size ship I wanted XD

    Thus having to place a key system first is quite un-appealing to me as a builder.

    _____________________________________________________

    On a seperate note, I get the feeling that some players will refuse to see or accept anything beyound their own opinions. One of the devs has kindly given us a detailed explaination about what they wanted to do with the update and why.
    They have also said they are willing to change it if it won't work, and would appreciate alternate suggestions that also acheive the stated goals.
    Instead of trying to work with them, players like Raisinbat take to completly behaviour and throw poop at them.

    Yes, the devs have mucked up with this update, Yes, it doesn't acheive all the stated goals. Yes, communication has been lacking (although not suprising given how some players act). But filling an entire post with go back to your ***** clolour book is not helpful in anyway.

    The devs are listening now, so please stop ruining the constructive disscusions we are trying to have with them to improve the game.
     
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    Raisinbat

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    This is the reason Schine doesn't want to communicate with us.
    Like they ever have or ever will. I´m off to Valhalla, merry fucking christmas. You have way more patience with these assholes than i ever would :confused: hope you manage to fix this dumpsterfire but i´ve seen enough dead indie games to know where this is going.
     
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    Matt_Bradock

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    Criss, before you drop the banhammer on Raisinbat, I kindly ask you to try and look beyond the insults and also see the desperation and frustration that caused this outburst. Many of us feel similarly, we're just better at hiding it. So far. But it's there. We seriously worry about the playability of Starmade and its ability to appeal to new players if they are facing complexity like this. Some want to keep it simply and gradually go towards better and more complex. You can't throw the newbies right into the deep end.
     
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    Like they ever have or ever will. I´m off to Valhalla, merry fucking christmas. You have way more patience with these assholes than i ever would :confused: hope you manage to fix this dumpsterfire but i´ve seen enough dead indie games to know where this is going.
    He simply can keep a clear head and act like a logical, rational human being.
    Throwing poop at the devs doesn't do anything but make them despie us. Thank you for that.

    I understand the desperation, seeing the pre-release builds got me quite frustrated as well.
    I hope you have a nice Christmass and are able to have a relaxing time regardless.
     

    Non

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    You yourself have already expressed concern over learning curve.
    The leaning curve is 100% fine, and the power update does not reduce it. The problem is players access to information, because the tutorial is not enough.
    If math is going to be in the game, then it can be simple.
    It is simple math, the primary calculations that a player should do are damage and power usage calculations for their weapons which are all simple multiplication and division.
    That's not what StarMade is about.
    In my experience Starmade is very much about math.
     
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    It is simple math, the primary calculations that a player should do are damage and power usage calculations for their weapons which are all simple multiplication and division.
    It's not so much math problem as it is an UI problem. If you had a nice ship information screen, where you could see the power draw of systems in absolute numbers and percentages it would be much better. With ability to group, sort and shuffle them.

    What there exists right now is not very user friendly and sometimes has mistakes in calculations.
     
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    Okay! some very good posts and then there was total cancer.

    That they should be fired, because they´re more concerned with creating purely cosmetic assets, and not things to be used in the game and therefore see gameplay as a nuisance rather than, you know, THE ******* POINT OF A GAME. GET A ******* COLORING BOOK YOU USELESS ****.
    Okay have you ever tried to develop something? I have built several servers with costume ships, stations, and AI faction. Believe me when you do that you fined you have very little time to actually play the game. And then of course there is all the time wasted dealing with the poor losers who claim some one cheated because there is no way they defeated their amazing build (of course you then fined on investigation that their build was shit and after explaining that as nicely as you can. They still accuse the other player of cheating and you of protecting them) but I digress.
    The point being the dev team has their hand full and probably dose not have as much time as they would like to play the game.

    Edit:
    I sort of lost my point here. I guess I will have to fix that.

    To be far the point of the game is whatever they want it to be, they are the devs. In any case they are trying to add game play, but this is a small team, small as in mostly schema if I am not mistaken. They probably have, you know a life besides making this game.

    THEN DISCUSS IT!!! You wont will you, YOU dont like systems, you wont like any systems, because you just want to draw spaceships. How can you expect anyone to see you as anything other than a blithering ******* when you aren¨t doing your *** damn job. I paid money for what was sold as a ******* space GAME, but is now being turned into some hyper baguette painting tool.
    We all got this game to paint ships, of course the bonus is that we get to use them. Also they like systems they just added new ones that arguably are better than the old ones. The only problem is one of those systems.

    Edit:
    You did not Have To Pay! money for it is still free.

    You dont want to be insulted, stop insulting everyone else with this constant bullshit. You, and everyone else "working" on it have never even played it, how do you know you don¨t like it?
    Considering he is the middle man, (correct me if I am wrong) he is not insulting you just telling you what he knows. granted I would like to hear from the big chiefs once in a wile, but hay you take what you can get. I think I covered rest of this already.

    Every fucking update i ask this question; Name ONE positive change to starmade to happen post rails.
    Okay STOP! right there. I don't hear anyone complaining when a new optimization update is released, its all "Thanks schema" "Your the beat schema" "This really helps the game schema" "Keep up the good work schema" "Oh schema I love you".



    THEN LISTEN YOU pizza. We told you factions were a waste of time, you didn't listen and threw them in anyway. We told you the double power update was a bad idea, you did it anyway. We told you power 2.0 would be a massive gamebreaking cluster****and here we ******* are.

    Dont want to waste development time? ******* LISTEN:
    Pizza is an insult now? any way. What factions are you talking about? player or AI because both have been in the game for, well as long as I have been playing and that is quit a wile. Now AI factions got an update, which from a server owners point of view was long over dew. I have to pass over the Power Auxiliaries update, if that is what you are referring to. I didn't have the time to keep up on the forms at the time. As for 2.o I seam to remember a lot of people couldn't wait to get their hands on it, that is until they did.

    In the end insulting the devs wont get them to listen to you. Its more likely to alienate them from you and the rest of us. Be critical by all means, but there is no reason to be uncivil. I have issues with the power system as well and I have said so, but I am not going to resort to name calling just because I am not getting may way.
     
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    Calling someone a pizza sure is bad, but I still prefer to read that than "awesome new build, keep up the good work"

    I'm going to get used of the idea of needles ships
     
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    Calling someone a pizza sure is bad, but I still prefer to read that than "awesome new build, keep up the good work"

    I'm going to get used of the idea of needles ships
    Or you could help come up with other solutions instead :P
    They realise the issues with the current build.
    They just need a solid concept to follow through on to replace it.
    Thus they have asked for our feedback and suggestions to acheive it.

    The devs don't like needles any more than we do imo.
     

    The_Owl

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    I'd rather have people give passionate, violent criticism than sucking up and acting all like everything is good. What raisin is saying is pretty true.

    also duke remove the filter already goddamn
     
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    Ithirahad

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    Okay, great. But when someone that works on the assets for the game finds little enjoyment in how to optimize a ship, vs the system that came out I think that's saying something.
    Not really? Had it been, say, Zyrr or FlyingDebris doing the assets for the game instead of you (or me) the story would be different.

    A system like chambers is something I've wanted for a while. It was something we would have done solely with crew before. If math is going to be in the game, then it can be simple. You yourself have already expressed concern over learning curve. Well personally I'd rather not tell a new player that they need to learn the power formulas that the game runs on just to get the most out of this game.

    That's not what StarMade is about. We know that. Players delve into that territory because there is little else currently. I get that.
    Ok? But none of it is really necessary to enjoy the game. 90% of server-side players just build stuff and never touch the math, and it tends to work out alright. It really only matters for hard-ish-core PvP.
    I don't even know why you are suggesting such a thing. How and why would we ever do that. Stop suggesting things I am not explicitly stating. You're just causing more of a rift by implying things that aren't even true.
    Probably because that would be the only evident way to eliminate the math from design the way you seem to be suggesting. Learning the power consumption/damage formula for weapons, for example, will still be useful after this update.
    Simpler math. With chambers you get X amount of points, and can dedicate it to chambers till you run out. I don't think math is where I want to focus the learning curve. I would rather players focus on chamber combinations, chamber placement, how a reactor is laid out, how a ship is laid out, etc. The actual designing of a ship should be more important in a game like this than math.
    Power consumption/damage/etc. math is still useful, and honestly, though I don't like doing it either, I'd rather this than the alternative. Why? Well, that'd basically imply prefab weapons, or zero-effort engineering. Even if the game isn't about that sort of engineering, having some form of skill-based building 'progression' seems good.
    I will ask in the meeting tomorrow if we can reduce distance then. What I meant is that crew can be the alternative to adding interior space to ships instead of the stabilizer mechanic.
    The thing is, if the distance is reduced people will just keep asking to reduce the distance. The smaller the distance (or stabilization requirement) is, the larger the reactor you can fit, and then the distance just goes up again. A mechanics change is needed here.
    Mind you all, I personally have no problem changing stabilizers or removing them. I get the concern and if what you are saying is true I will find myself in a world of hurt when we get to renovating our assets. I will see what's up tomorrow.
    Yeah, except you probably won't be in a world of hurt, except maybe for dealing with conduits if scaling isn't fixed (and I assume it will be fixed). The typical Outcast ship shape is perfectly built to efficiently run this new system, with large compartments in the far fore and far aft, and the Trading Guild ships shouldn't have too many issues either on account of being either longish on one axis or not combat ships. Scavs might have some problems, but most of them are pretty long and/or flat-ish, so it shouldn't be too bad.

    Also, those ships are hardly built for mass efficiency or to be completely optimal, so it shouldn't matter too much. The new system is sufficient to put some systems in any ship, but we run into problems when we want to make a ship work very well for its resource cost or mass - problems you will not run into.
     
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    You keep trying to add restrictions to a game where you can build anything without changing the base game mechanics, so the players can only build the way you want them to build. Its fascinating to see how you keep trying to come with a restrictive design while keeping the "build anything" sandbox nature of the game, its completely incoherent yet you keep trying.

    But don't worry, I just had an awesome idea that will solve all your problems. It will force the players to play how you want to and they we will like it. The times of filling ships with system blocks will end, as it will make no sense anymore. Players will want to build interiors because it won't penalize in any way. There will be no math involved in ship design since it will be replaced with power/damage/thrust/mass bars that will fill when you place something on the ship. And best of all, besides the implementation may be complex, the idea it very very simple: REMOVE THE BLOCKS. Remove the ability to build as many you want in the shape you want. Replace them by pre-built ship hull sections, weapons, power and shield systems, etc. Different sizes and different technologies. Even the most casual players will love it!
    What's the point of being able to place any block anywhere if it won't work for the sole reason of a variable that says maxShieldGroups=20 for the sake of "balancing"?

    You can take example from many games that are already out there using this system and then starmade will become just one more ship-building game as it seems it is your propose.
    Or you could just stop making decisions that go against the game nature, stop "casualizing" it and keep making a great game as you were doing in the past.
    If you are going to keep this game design direction maybe what you really want is to make a different game...

    Also game balancing seems to be a very big issue with this game. Imagine a balance, an actual one, with actual weights on it. To balance it you need to match the weights at both sides. If you use the same weight pieces (1kg/1kg) it makes it boring. Balance doesn't mean equality. Use different weights to make it more interesting (0.25+0.25+0.5kg/1kg) . But never, EVER, use tethers to force the balance to be horizontal if you can't match the weights, which is what has been done with this game.
     

    Ithirahad

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    The leaning curve is 100% fine, and the power update does not reduce it. The problem is players access to information, because the tutorial is not enough.
    Agreed.
    It is simple math, the primary calculations that a player should do are damage and power usage calculations for their weapons which are all simple multiplication and division.
    Yep. Those formulae are not as easily accessible as they ought to be (and consequently I keep forgetting them! D: ), but they're pretty straightforward.
    In my experience Starmade is very much about math.
    Yeah, this is kind of inevitable. Even when/if the game is about exploration, adventure, trade, and warfare on a grand scale, there will always be math if you want to do things optimally. Even more complicated math, actually. Resource usage, resource allocation, stuff like force multipliers, all kinds of calculations stretching across time and space. Things we don't even worry about yet.
     
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    Criss

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    requiring that all groups need a conduit from the reactor to touch them to work.
    The reason there is currently an energy beam is so new players don't need to worry about 3 blocks all connected just to get power working on a moderately sized vessel. Proper tool tips could alleviate this issue in the future and it's something we planned on including. I can't say for sure whether or not I personally want any sort of connection between the components. It's a fight between balance and creative freedom for me.

    Isanths and other ships will continue to not present any danger due to their armor/decor to systems ratios.
    Well if I read correctly, changes were made so that armor and decoratives became far more useless in the past update or two. In my experience, players that fought my full loaded interior built ships were surprised with their survive-ability vs PvP focused ships. I am unsure if this was during or before the Armor HP system was in.

    The fact that reactors are now single targets instead of being spread throughout the ship will make ships with less power, and weaker shields, even more vulnerable.
    I think that makes sense though. Our previous system isn't intuitive. To get the most out of power you need to spread it in maze-like strands throughout the largest dimensions of your ship? That's not what we think of when it comes to conventional reactors in fiction.

    they´re more concerned with creating purely cosmetic assets
    I seem to recall completely redesigning assets of ours due to the fact that they underperformed. The Outcast fighter being one of them.

    I also stated this before, but it seemingly went unnoticed by you. These first three factions are not intended to be a real challenge for the player. They are there to introduce the player to the universe, the mechanics, and some build styles. We accepted 70+ player fleets so that proficient builders could get their fleets into the game and present us with variety in terms of aesthetics and system design.

    We also have plans for truly punishing enemies, something I cannot discuss right now as that would spoil the surprise. I am willing to talk to players if it means those factions are worthy enemies.


    Name ONE positive change to starmade to happen post rails.
    Players seem to like the chamber aspect of the power update. I also recall plenty of optimizations but if you want to backtrack to pre rails the version for your build can be selected here.

    factions were a waste of time
    Factions are not complete? It was said as much before. Many areas have a long way to go before they are 100% I fail to see how factions are a waste of time when every server I have been on uses factions to ensure players can work together and protect their creations to a degree while the rest of the game is worked on.

    before you drop the banhammer on Raisinbat
    I can't ban anyone. I don't really want him to go. Nobody has ever called me a pizza before. It's amusing. Regardless, they are the extremely dissatisfied part of our playerbase that keeps the rest of our forums looking quite sophisticated in comparison. I do appreciate the discussion going on here.

    If you had a nice ship information screen, where you could see the power draw of systems in absolute numbers and percentages it would be much better.
    I think that's the crux of the issue. Everything right now is numbers. If it were translated into a form of UI I could imagine it would be much easier to adjust the systems on a ship.
     

    Non

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    That's not what we think of when it comes to conventional reactors in fiction.
    A big brick or reactors isn't conventional either.
    If it were translated into a form of UI I could imagine it would be much easier to adjust the systems on a ship.
    What does this even mean?
    Factions are not complete? It was said as much before. Many areas have a long way to go before they are 100% I fail to see how factions are a waste of time when every server I have been on uses factions to ensure players can work together and protect their creations to a degree while the rest of the game is worked on.
    Factions in their current state are terrible. Last I checked permissions didn't save, and every menbers knows where all other members are when online. Thats a ton of information that shouldn't be given out to recruits.
     

    Ithirahad

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    I think Raisin was talking about NPC factions. Regular factions... as you said, Non, they have some issues. They're needed though.
     
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    StormWing0

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    On the note of factions why not just combine both Player and NPC factions into one thing and save yourselves some headaches? Granted keeping them separate for now helps with coding them so they work but it'd be nice to make them one in the same down the road. Basically depending on if the player or npc side is in charge of the faction determines the type of faction it is and Player controlled factions could recruit NPCs and NPC controlled factions could recruit players. This would require a ton more things to be setup though one is phasing out the old randomly generated and spawned factions and their stuff and moving the rest of the things they're able to do to the NPC factions. Like being about to build some things outside their territory like shops, warpgates, outposts, etc <-- let players decide in the xml or by in game commands within the factions' menu. :)
     
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    Well if I read correctly, changes were made so that armor and decoratives became far more useless in the past update or two. In my experience, players that fought my full loaded interior built ships were surprised with their survive-ability vs PvP focused ships. I am unsure if this was during or before the Armor HP system was in.
    That's reasonable and it is my experience with Isanths too. They don't present any danger but are frustrating to deal with. They circle you at maximum range of their weapons and try to plink you with their guns that can't even overcome shield regen on anything that was built with a thought about combat. So you have these targets the size of a couple of pixels all around you and you need to clean them up. It doesn't feel like combat, but like cleaning house.

    Bigger or better built ships with multiple missile turrets or laser waffles could deal with them pretty fast.

    I think that makes sense though. Our previous system isn't intuitive. To get the most out of power you need to spread it in maze-like strands throughout the largest dimensions of your ship? That's not what we think of when it comes to conventional reactors in fiction.
    Thing is 90% of combat ships in fiction have multiple reactors to combat exactly that problem where your ship goes down after one penetrating shot.