Power Dev Build

    With the possibility of having to re-work your ships which would you rather see?

    • Release the power dev build a little early but have something to tinker with

      Votes: 20 71.4%
    • Wait for Schine to make it pretty

      Votes: 8 28.6%

    • Total voters
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    Nothing on the Devs, please have mercy, but sitting in anticipation of a huge update as of this when almost 2 weeks ago you were showing it to us working, and trying to think of how to change my ships' build is painful.

    I understand that coding and developing this game takes time and so do the others.

    As the Great Cat God stated [Devblog 11th July 2017 - End Goal Document Part 1]: the most realized role in this game is Builder and builders like to tinker. Please give us something to tinker with.
     
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    I say the sooner we get to know just what the hell we're dealing with, the sooner and better we will be able to grasp what needs fixing, balancing or a complete rework.
    And the less time Schine will have to do something really stupid without us.
     
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    It's a dev build, there will be bugs, glitches, crashes and all the other fun stuff you'd expect from it.
    In fact, we might be able to actually shorten the bugfixing phase by being devs' playtesters and pointing those bugs out.
     

    Edymnion

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    In fact, we might be able to actually shorten the bugfixing phase by being devs' playtesters and pointing those bugs out.
    I'm a programmer by trade (I build business applications).

    Let me just say that early in a build cycle, there is zero need or want for having people mucking around in your product. You want to have it near finished so that the feedback you get is valid.

    The video showed little more than the reactors and the physical blocks for chambers as being functional. The chambers themselves didn't really even do anything yet.

    I know I wouldn't want my coworkers mucking around in one of my applications yelling "Why doesn't this button work?" or "This calculation is wrong!" just for me to repeat 50 million times "Thats just a place holder, it hasn't been added yet!"
     
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    Well then the devs probably should say so. Something along the lines of:
    Sorry folks, no build this week, lots of work has been done, many placeholder GUI elements have been finished, more are work-in-progress.
    If no game-breaking bugs pop up, expect the dev build in four weeks.
    A simple bi-weekly update on the status of whatever they're working on will go a long way.
    Keeping us in the dark doesn't help much.
     

    Edymnion

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    A simple bi-weekly update on the status of whatever they're working on will go a long way.
    Keeping us in the dark doesn't help much.
    What use is there in doing a dev post that is nothing but "Nothing new to report this week"? Just because they aren't saying "Yes, we're still doing our jobs" every 20 minutes doesn't mean they're off golfing instead. They flat out said they weren't doing the every 2 weeks thing anymore because the stuff they were doing was too big to give incremental looks at, and they didn't want to waste time with meaningless dev blogs just for the sake of having dev blogs.

    And letting us in on what they're doing didn't go over too well for them either. Last time they let us peek behind the curtain it was "Hey, we're brainstorming updating the power systems because we acknowledge that the current one isn't very fun and causes some problems" and the community lost it's collective shit over it.

    If anything, this community has proven it is incapable of behaving itself when given sneak peeks, so its better to keep us in the dark until a finished product is ready to unveil.
     
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    diremage

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    What use is there in doing a dev post that is nothing but "Nothing new to report this week"? Just because they aren't saying "Yes, we're still doing our jobs" every 20 minutes doesn't mean they're off golfing instead. They flat out said they weren't doing the every 2 weeks thing anymore because the stuff they were doing was too big to give incremental looks at, and they didn't want to waste time with meaningless dev blogs just for the sake of having dev blogs.

    And letting us in on what they're doing didn't go over too well for them either. Last time they let us peek behind the curtain it was "Hey, we're brainstorming updating the power systems because we acknowledge that the current one isn't very fun and causes some problems" and the community lost it's collective shit over it.

    If anything, this community has proven it is incapable of behaving itself when given sneak peeks, so its better to keep us in the dark until a finished product is ready to unveil.
    Will grant you that the sneak peak of this power update didn't go over too well. One could argue that it's because they decided to revisit a core system, which while not perfect worked "pretty well" and had many hours of fine tuning and debugging which are simply being discarded as not good enough.

    Far from being "incapable of behaving itself" I think the community has provided a lot* of useful feedback, as well as a lot of less-useful feedback that nevertheless honestly represented the opinion of the player. The community as a whole has basically stopped playing the game because when the update comes out this is going to be a new and different game. I hope we like it. And I appreciate the devs giving everyone a heads-up that everything we've done so far is going to need to be rebuilt almost from the ground up. That was useful information and players are making rational decisions with the information they've been given.

    * Hundreds and hundreds of forum posts, at the very least...

    One of the rational responses of someone who's going to have to throw away dozens of hours of loving labor, because someone else chose to throw away dozens of hours of work, is to lose their shit. That is one of the appropriate, rational responses to the information we've been given.

    Personally I would rather see the devs release a broken, buggy alpha sooner rather than later, because every week that the devs fail to release it does more significant, measurable damage to the community as players quit and decide to play some other game. And many of those players aren't going to come back. Yes, the game is in "alpha," devs don't care if the playerbase is five players, whatever. Those are weasel words for when the devs screw up. It's released on steam, it's available for purchase, it's as "released" as it's going to get.
     
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    Edymnion

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    One could argue that it's because they decided to revisit a core system, which while not perfect worked "pretty well" and had many hours of fine tuning and debugging which are simply being discarded as not good enough.
    Agreed. I also agree that "pretty well" was indeed "not good enough".
    Far from being "incapable of behaving itself" I think the community has provided a lot* of useful feedback, as well as a lot of less-useful feedback that nevertheless honestly represented the opinion of the player.
    My point was that the noise to signal ratio was VERY high. For every person giving cool headed feedback, there were 10 screaming.

    The community as a whole has basically stopped playing the game because when the update comes out this is going to be a new and different game. I hope we like it. And I appreciate the devs giving everyone a heads-up that everything we've done so far is going to need to be rebuilt almost from the ground up. That was useful information and players are making rational decisions with the information they've been given.
    Agreed. The slump in active players waiting for the update is expected and understandable.

    At the time it was first announced, however, it was NOT a rational decision. They had said "Hey, we're thinking about doing this sometime in the future. We don't have it on the time table yet, we're just brainstorming", so the "I'm not going to do ANYTHING until this happens" was just silly because it would be months before it happened.
    One of the rational responses of someone who's going to have to throw away dozens of hours of loving labor, because someone else chose to throw away dozens of hours of work, is to lose their shit. That is one of the appropriate, rational responses to the information we've been given.
    To which I would say "This is an alpha. You were told up front when you walked in the door that things were changing constantly. If you can't stand the idea of having to redo your stuff, you shouldn't be in an alpha in the first place."

    There isn't a single game out there that lets you keep alpha and beta characters when the actual game launches. Everybody has to start over from scratch in any other game. The idea that everything you do is going to be permanent and forever in this one is just silly. Since launch, we've done an overhaul on thrust not once but twice, we've seen docked reactors come and go, we've seen power soft caps double, etc. There have been a LOT of ships invalidated by updates. We will have many more invalidated in the future.

    And its not like you have to even start over from scratch here. You can keep your hulls and ships and stations, you just have to retrofit them. Frankly installing systems is EASY. Even the biggest of ships you can fully install systems in in just an hour or two. Making the hull as anything beyond a doom brick takes 10x longer and represents most of the work that goes into any given ship.
     

    diremage

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    .Agreed. I also agree that "pretty well" was indeed "not good enough".
    My point was that the noise to signal ratio was VERY high. For every person giving cool headed feedback, there were 10 screaming.
    Right, the screaming was useful feedback.

    Agreed. The slump in active players waiting for the update is expected and understandable.

    At the time it was first announced, however, it was NOT a rational decision. They had said "Hey, we're thinking about doing this sometime in the future. We don't have it on the time table yet, we're just brainstorming", so the "I'm not going to do ANYTHING until this happens" was just silly because it would be months before it happened.
    As far as we know it's STILL going to be months before anything happens.
    To which I would say "This is an alpha. You were told up front when you walked in the door that things were changing constantly. If you can't stand the idea of having to redo your stuff, you shouldn't be in an alpha in the first place."

    There isn't a single game out there that lets you keep alpha and beta characters when the actual game launches. Everybody has to start over from scratch in any other game.
    False. https://us.battle.net/forums/en/heroes/topic/16718071859

    The idea that everything you do is going to be permanent and forever in this one is just silly. Since launch, we've done an overhaul on thrust not once but twice, we've seen docked reactors come and go, we've seen power soft caps double, etc. There have been a LOT of ships invalidated by updates. We will have many more invalidated in the future.
    Interesting that three of those changes were power changes. This is basically the one system where players haven't been able to say "Yeah, I just have to redo that one part of my ships and I'm all set."
    And its not like you have to even start over from scratch here. You can keep your hulls and ships and stations, you just have to retrofit them. Frankly installing systems is EASY. Even the biggest of ships you can fully install systems in in just an hour or two. Making the hull as anything beyond a doom brick takes 10x longer and represents most of the work that goes into any given ship.
    I have never had a lot of luck with just slapping a bunch of system cubes into my ships. They don't fit well, they leave a bunch of white space, and especially where weapons are concerned the more time you spend painstakingly mapping out each block the bigger the dividend when you actually use the ship. And with the sphere tool and everything I can get out a non-cuboid hull a lot faster than I can fill it in.

    Also, it may not be true that we get to keep our hulls and stations. The power mechanics describe the optimal shape for a ship; it's *easy* to make long lines and just have a long ship but it's *optimal* to have wings and fins and crap, and put power inside those to keep your bounding box large. The optimal shape for a ship will be different, and that means probably it's best to start from scratch. Now instead of your ship being vulnerable everywhere, it's only going to be vulnerable in two or three very specific locations, which will benefit a great deal from layer upon layer of protection.
     
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    Let me just say that early in a build cycle, there is zero need or want for having people mucking around in your product. You want to have it near finished so that the feedback you get is valid.

    The video showed little more than the reactors and the physical blocks for chambers as being functional. The chambers themselves didn't really even do anything yet.
    Being that they showed the video proves that they are not early in the build cycle. There was two things they stated that did not work exactly the way they want to in the video: leveling system of the chambers and the scanning system [not counting the Repulsor block or the graphics of each block]. However, a Developer Build strictly means that this build is still in development and is not the final product. Plaayers know this and respect it and only utilize a Dev Build (for the most part) if they know what they are doing.

    To drive my point home look here: StarMade - Steam Charts, and let the numbers speak for themselves. Each uptick in players you see is a release of something. The bigger upticks are multiple releases. More players = new players, which in turn equal profits to keep this game going and moving forward. We play this game to be entertained. When we have to wait weeks after a 2 hour stream for a Dev build and still dont have the date for it, being potential overhaul of one of the biggest part of your builds, we are not entertained...and numbers go down.
     

    diremage

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    Those charts say that Starmade is averaging well less than 100 concurrent players and the last time it even broke 100 was on September 5th. With those kinds of numbers it's not really accurate to call anything "profit".

    Starmade is not a subscription game and payment is optional. I doubt the devs made enough money this month to pay for one whole hour of work, even if they aren't paying overhead for things like electricity and office space (for example, if everyone works from home).
     

    Edymnion

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    Those charts say that Starmade is averaging well less than 100 concurrent players and the last time it even broke 100 was on September 5th. With those kinds of numbers it's not really accurate to call anything "profit".

    Starmade is not a subscription game and payment is optional. I doubt the devs made enough money this month to pay for one whole hour of work, even if they aren't paying overhead for things like electricity and office space (for example, if everyone works from home).
    Yeah, the initial Steam release is what got them the development money they're running off of now. Anything coming in from Steam these days is just a trickle.

    They've got enough cash to operate on, and if/when they need more they'll bump up a bit of advertising. Make a new video or something like that. Number of active players right now isn't important as long as there's enough to get the testing and feedback done.

    Also, Steam numbers aren't everything. I don't play through Steam, I use the stand alone launcher. I hate Steam and refuse to use it unless I have no other choice.
     
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    I agree that the numbers are not the greatest but you cannot deny that each major release they did the numbers upticked. I understand that they cannot roll out an update every week with the current staffing however it has been another week and still silence from the Devs. If it is the money that is keeping them from doing great then they need to work on their advertising and take away the demo like so many other Early Release games dont have.
     

    DrTarDIS

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    uhm, so...dev 0.200.11 is out as of now...
     

    The_Owl

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    You can, but not all of them work yet