not feeling like building atm.

[splatthecat]

I think we have all succumbed to a kneejerk reaction in one way or another.

It's only a game at the end of the day. One we are all supposed to enjoy playing and support. I simply don't play anything else and if I'm not playing it I'm planning a build and if I'm not planning a build I'm watching other people build.

If the power system changes, it changes. We learn the new system and we refit the ships we want to refit. Yes, at the moment it would appear that the developers have put the entire game in limbo. People don't know whether to keep building, start new projects or plan what to do next? Let us just carry on regardless. The new update hasn't hit yet. We simply can hope that the new system is better than the old, uses less blocks NOT more (by which I mean numbers of blocks not types of blocks) and is intuitive in its design.

 

[NeonSturm]

I like the box the least.
We had docking boxes in the past …

 

[Shaker]

So much rubbish in that power post, up to page 27 now. At least Raisinbat got a word in, hes the most vocal out of the PvPers.

Cant get any of my server guys to bother jumping in the thread, so its gonna get heavy swayed by fanboys

 

[Drakkart]

Welp, you can always just focus on building interesting shells.

Sure, you don't know what systems are going to look like to put in them, so focus on recreation shells where the look is what matters anyway. Make a full scale Enterprise D, or a double scale X-Wing, or whatever else. Work on perfecting your engine porn. Make station shells.

Agreed it is just the normal angle from where i am coming from was already knowing what will be inside systemswise ... Hey i'djust like to thank you everyone for letting me know it is not just me...

 

[Gasboy]

At first I felt a bit upset, and angry, as I am just about done a "ship of the month" build, and I look at how I built it and I know that it will essentially require an entire rebuild, because power is essentially covered and surrounded by the rest of the ship. And then I thought of the fighters and cargo ships I have, and I didn't really feel any better.

But, having chewed on that for a day, I've come to realize that it's a good thing. I hope, that with our input, Schine will put in place a solid, interesting system to power our ships off of. It's going to take great input from us, though.

The game certainly hasn't felt like it was in alpha still, I have to admit.

But the thought of fighters and small ships being able to cram more power into a small space, and the hinted at shrinking of weapons and other systems, makes me excited for the game again.
[doublepost=1487027758,1487027673][/doublepost]

So much rubbish in that power post, up to page 27 now. At least Raisinbat got a word in, hes the most vocal out of the PvPers.

Cant get any of my server guys to bother jumping in the thread, so its gonna get heavy swayed by fanboys

Define fanboys? Fans of the game? Fans of the Schine? Fans of non-PvP ships?

I dunno about you, but I've been trying to get people to see things from different viewpoints.

The sort of attitude that you seem to be exhibiting is not helpful or positive, dude.
[doublepost=1487027803][/doublepost]

Agreed it is just the normal angle from where i am coming from was already knowing what will be inside systemswise ... Hey i'djust like to thank you everyone for letting me know it is not just me...

It's not just you.

 

[Shaker]

I dunno about you, but I've been trying to get people to see things from different viewpoints.

I know it not helpful, its just annoying watching so many just wanting the 1 thing, is this just a ship building game? Or will it have factions, missions, working ai? Any gameplay at all?

So many players are waiting on the sidelines and so many have left due to how stagnant SM has become. I dont care which way this power idea gets changed, i just think the focus should be elsewhere.

 

[Raisinbat]

Define fanboys? Fans of the game? Fans of the Schine? Fans of non-PvP ships?

I dunno about you, but I've been trying to get people to see things from different viewpoints.

The sort of attitude that you seem to be exhibiting is not helpful or positive, dude.

Playing mediator between people with legitimate concerns, vs people who just want free handouts isn't mediating; if RPers get what they want nothing is going to change for them; they'll always be shit, because they aren't trying not to. What they want is already achieveable, good looking ships with interiors that aren't terrible in combat, they just don't want to put in the effort, or they think aesthetics is the only thing that matters in the game, and will sacrifice anything for it. If schine goes for this starmade will be reduced to a modeling tool. This is not something we're willing to negotiate on, there's no middle ground where we trade something for something else, this is RPers getting what they want like they always do, because they're the majority on these forums and schine doesn't pay any attention to the forums at large so they don't register that the majority of people have no idea what they're talking about. Schine also knows nothing about PVP themselves so they can't see what's wrong with this.

You want people to see different viewpoints? I think every pvp player understands exactly what RPers want and exactly why; no aesthetics limitations, because they don't want a game.

Every time we explain our position to the RP group they either don't understand why it matters, tell us to just fuck off or deal with it, or we're just implied to be selfish for wanting our concerns to be heard. They either don't understand or don't care what we want, if there's going to be a dialog it needs to start with them.

Our attitude is unhelpful because we will not compromise; it's like someone getting mugged and you're helpfully suggesting the victim hand over their wallet so we both get something out of it, and we're not positive because you're being a douche.

i have to say these announcements of changes kinda make me go like *sigh* whatever i'll come back at 1.0 when stuff is finally set up and meant to stay. Am i alone with this? bothers me for i always had fun with tinkering in starmade.

I know that feel man, i've been in that mood for the past year or so, but this was always going to happen, or the game would be stuck with nonsense mechanics. If schine are able to fix this we'll have a better game in the end. The current mechanics for the game makes modular ship breakup at least twice as powerful as regular design, and those things are such a pain to build. There's also the lack of ballance between ship sizes since small ships are impossible to hit at long range and have better efficiency if ai got fixed swarms of small heavily armed ai boats would dominate everything. There's no variety in tactical profiles for ships, because the rapid fire dps model is by far the best because the current power model cannot accomodate high capacity ships without leading to instakill meta.

I'm just glad they appear to be looking to fix it now, because having this done sooner rather than later will be nice. I also doubt they're going to end up departing this heavily from current mechanics, but then again it wouldn't be the first time they shit the bed

 

[Edymnion]

Agreed it is just the normal angle from where i am coming from was already knowing what will be inside systemswise ... Hey i'djust like to thank you everyone for letting me know it is not just me...

Oh no, its not just you. I've felt that way since the crew update was announced. No clue what they are going to require, or what they're going to be able to do, so I can't really make a future proof ship right now.

So, I try to build the hulls first, save that off as a separate blueprint, and then just fill it to use now. Later on when stuff like crew (and now power) screw it up, I'll just restart the interior from scratch.

Its a very good time to practice making better looking ships and learning how to detail things more, IMO. You know the systems are going to change dramatically to the point none of what we know right now is likely to apply later, so screw it. Build cool and awesome shells, have a fleet of awesomeness just waiting to be filled in.

Making kickass ships isn't going to change, just the way we fill them will.
[doublepost=1487074977,1487074273][/doublepost]

I know it not helpful, its just annoying watching so many just wanting the 1 thing, is this just a ship building game? Or will it have factions, missions, working ai? Any gameplay at all?

You're talking about steering for the car when we're still trying to finish building the engine.

To use an MMO comparison, you're talking about quests and raids when we still don't even have races and classes done yet. You can't build a raid until you know how the classes work. You don't make a quest until you get the characters up to where they can run and jump and fight.

Right now, we are still in Alpha stage, the core elements of HOW the game works and runs are still being ironed out. Before we can have missions and quests and broad intergalactic wars, we need to figure out how to make the ships go in the first place.

What we have right now for that sort of thing isn't about playability in it's own right, its about testing other things that require them. We didn't get shops in the game because they wanted a thriving economy yet, we got shops in the game because we needed easy access to blocks to build with.

You gotta finish building the engine of the car before you start worrying about what color to paint it.

 

[Katorone]

I'm someone who plays starmade on and off, so this doesn't really impact me a whole lot. I do think it's in Schine's best interest to come out with specifics ASAP, so people can prepare their current designs. If the rebalance is rolled out like the cargo has been, I don't expect many issues. I suspect there will be a grace period where the 'old' power system keeps working, so people aren't stuck with a fleet of dead ships.

What I would like to see from Schine is a tool that lets us empty the interior of a ship easily. I have templates for rooms & hallways, so re-creating an interior isn't that much of a big deal, while the ship hulls are unique works.

 

[Gasboy]

Blrp.

What I have found the most funny, and yet most sad, in all of this is that there are PvPers who are moaning on about this being the end of StarMade PvP, the RPers win again, blah blah blah... and there are RPers who are moaning on about how this new system will make PvPers many times stronger than before, those damned PvPers win all the time, blah blah blah.

People on both sides claim to know what the other side wants, and I have to say, that's bullshit. You guys have no clear idea of what each other wants, and many of you think "your side" is the better.

But, it is obvious that there are level-headed people on both sides, and it's these people Schine will end up working with.

By continuing to be uncompromising, selfish and insulting, you'll end up getting nothing of what you want out of this, and you'll have only yourself to blame. Not that you'll recognize that, though. It's everyone else who's at fault, right?

EDIT: Today I learned that the forum filter replaces certain words with cannon. This makes me wonder what cannons are actually firing...

 

[Phocian]

Yes our server is the same most players just don't want to waste their time building for it all to be scrapped in six months or however long.
Incomplete game additions and features that were introduced over a year ago.
A road map that isn't stuck to.
Bugs bugs bugs.

"Its Alpha"................

 

[Raisinbat]

What I have found the most funny, and yet most sad, in all of this is that there are PvPers who are moaning on about this being the end of StarMade PvP, the RPers win again, blah blah blah... and there are RPers who are moaning on about how this new system will make PvPers many times stronger than before, those damned PvPers win all the time, blah blah blah.

Back that up with some examples then.

Also you don't see anything stupid about RPers complaining that pvpers are better at pvp then that's what we're doing and they aren't?

Again, this IS the end of pvp BUILDING if we can't create diverse systems anymore, whats the point? Its not exaggeration if its true,.

 

[Gasboy]

Back that up with some examples then.

Also you don't see anything stupid about RPers complaining that pvpers are better at pvp then that's what we're doing and they aren't?

Again, this IS the end of pvp BUILDING if we can't create diverse systems anymore, whats the point? Its not exaggeration if its true,.

You can read through the forums like other people do. Go check out some people's opinions on build servers and you'll see.

Yes, I do think that RPers complaining that PvPers are better at PvP is silly. I've tried to hammer into some people's heads that when you design a ship for art, a ship for RP and a ship for PvP, you're making difference design decisions, and you are sacrificing in some areas to be better in others. It's a block based game, and the person with more useful blocks should always have an advantage, assuming equal player skill.

To compare to an MMORPG, RP ships are essentially PvE character setups. You can clear raids (pirate/faction stations) and handle random mobs (NPC ships) just fine. And against similarly set up characters, you can fight them on level ground assuming equal skill.

PvP ships are PvP characters. You're built to get the most out of your character vs other players. You've given up some advantages that help with PvE content (though this doesn't necessarily stand up in SM, but you won't have salvagers, or astrotech computers, or perhaps cargo to store lewt, etc.) in exchange for advantages in PvP.

I've done more than my fair share of PvP combat. I was there when Counter Strike became a thing. I was there for the beginning of WoW and EVE and LoL. I do get it. I can't really be arsed to do it any more, because it's too much time and I'm too old to have a good reflex twitch, but I do get it.

But nothing will change if people just want to be inflexible.

Schine has put up an offering. We should be examining it and giving useful feedback. You will be ignored if all you do is throw a temper tantrum and refuse to budge on anything. Again, it will be on you.

Cooler heads will prevail, or else everything will remain in it's current state.

 

[Scypio]

What I have found the most funny, and yet most sad, in all of this is that there are PvPers who are moaning on about this being the end of StarMade PvP, the RPers win again, blah blah blah... and there are RPers who are moaning on about how this new system will make PvPers many times stronger than before, those damned PvPers win all the time, blah blah blah.

The thing is, they're both right. Heatboxes mean easy layout for interior systems and anyone will be able to take the optimised layout on his own. However, someone that doesn't take the optimised layout will still be destroyed by anyone using it against him. In the process, you just currently destroy the creativity and deep thoughts about building as it is described as well as the possibility to distinguish yourself from the others as there is only one optimised layout and not different possibilities that you can choose from.

 

[Gasboy]

The thing is, they're both right. Heatboxes mean easy layout for interior systems and anyone will be able to take the optimised layout on his own. However, someone that doesn't take the optimised layout will still be destroyed by anyone using it against him. In the process, you just currently destroy the creativity and deep thoughts about building as it is described as well as the possibility to distinguish yourself from the others as there is only one optimised layout and not different possibilities that you can choose from.

Which is why they have to stop insulting each other and the devs and work together to make something that works for both people. That's been my point the entire time.

The thing is, PvP and RP will end up being the same thing, whether we like it or not. :P It HAS to be, or else it won't work. If you follow the idea as posted, we will end up with a system where everything is parallel to the power system. Weapons will have a defined space, shields will have a defined space, etc. Just like how it is now, except the space won't be entirely filled with blocks.

And you'll have crew spaces.

In the end it will work out. The person who skimps on crew space, and risks inefficiencies by not providing as much "heat zone" as optimal, but who tacks in extra weapon blocks and armor blocks, will be balanced out by the person who takes less weapons and armor but whose crew is able to cover the inadequacy with their skills.

RP vs PvP won't matter any more. However, there will still be an optimal way to do something, and if you stray too far from that optimal path, you'll get owned by the people who do stick to it. You'll just have multiple ways to get to that optimal path.

 

[Scypio]

The thing is, PvP and RP will end up being the same thing, whether we like it or not. :P It HAS to be, or else it won't work. If you follow the idea as posted, we will end up with a system where everything is parallel to the power system. Weapons will have a defined space, shields will have a defined space, etc. Just like how it is now, except the space won't be entirely filled with blocks.

And you'll have crew spaces.

In the end it will work out. The person who skimps on crew space, and risks inefficiencies by not providing as much "heat zone" as optimal, but who tacks in extra weapon blocks and armor blocks, will be balanced out by the person who takes less weapons and armor but whose crew is able to cover the inadequacy with their skills.

RP vs PvP won't matter any more. However, there will still be an optimal way to do something, and if you stray too far from that optimal path, you'll get owned by the people who do stick to it. You'll just have multiple ways to get to that optimal path.

If you talk currently about heatboxes idea, there won't be needs for crew and we'll still be forced to build around the boxes the heatboxe produce wich is my main concern as it destroys a good amount of creativity and shapes in ships that were possible and won't be with it anymore.

Or are you talking about possible AI crew ?

 

[Reilly Reese]

It's just meant I need to plan ahead and make interior only saves of my wips before I layout current power systems.

When the update hits I just roll out the empty hull on creative, refit the power and just keep cruising.

 

[Raisinbat]

To compare to an MMORPG, RP ships are essentially PvE character setups. You can clear raids (pirate/faction stations) and handle random mobs (NPC ships) just fine. And against similarly set up characters, you can fight them on level ground assuming equal skill.

Rp ships are more like people picking equipment based on how it looks rather than the stats :p You know, like mmo rpers, except unlike sensible rpers a lot of the forum goers expect their RP gear to be competitive...

But nothing will change if people just want to be inflexible.

We're not inflexible on all points. Not everything exists to be bargained with, but roleplayers have gotten tons of stuff over the past updates and pvp has been neglected for years, and this example ignores PVP concerns completely while once again catering to RP. For example, i have NO objections to RP interiors imposing less impact on a ships performance; like reworking the passive effects to not be based on mass would be a huge benefit to them, but every time i sugest it they scoff at it. In addition RPers dont understand the mechanics so their sugestions and appraisal of suggestions leads to dumb ideas, like interior being impossible for pvp ships, getting propagated even though it isnt true. This makes the RP community impossible to deal with, because they're basically just tantrumming every thread, they never post arguments for why their changes should work, so we can't discus things, they don't listen to arguments but they outnumber us on the forums so what can we do? We get ignored, they get more cosmetic junk and the game continues to fall apart.

Schine has put up an offering. We should be examining it and giving useful feedback. You will be ignored if all you do is throw a temper tantrum and refuse to budge on anything. Again, it will be on you.

An offering thats only concerned with RP and ruinous for the PVP community. We're giving feedback, but we'll never accept it.

 

[Gasboy]

If you talk currently about heatboxes idea, there won't be needs for crew and we'll still be forced to build around the boxes the heatboxe produce wich is my main concern as it destroys a good amount of creativity and shapes in ships that were possible and won't be with it anymore.

Or are you talking about possible AI crew ?

The devs have mentioned crew before. It's further down the road.

And how is building around a "heatbox" destroy creativity? You're already building around boxes as it is. The heatbox idea is smaller than the power chunks people build currently. It will take up less space.
[doublepost=1487080920,1487080526][/doublepost]

Rp ships are more like people picking equipment based on how it looks rather than the stats :p You know, like mmo rpers, except unlike sensible rpers a lot of the forum goers expect their RP gear to be competitive...

No, those are the people who build shells.

In addition RPers dont understand the mechanics so their sugestions and appraisal of suggestions leads to dumb ideas, like interior being impossible for pvp ships, getting propagated even though it isnt true.

This is flat-out wrong. Some RPers might not understand, but I am pretty sure that most do. At least as much as the average player, be them RP or PvP.

This makes the RP community impossible to deal with, because they're basically just tantrumming every thread, they never post arguments for why their changes should work, so we can't discus things, they don't listen to arguments but they outnumber us on the forums so what can we do? We get ignored, they get more cosmetic junk and the game continues to fall apart.

And I have challenged them on this attitude as well. I have argued that you cannot leave the PvPers out in the cold. I'm not just challenging you.

An offering thats only concerned with RP and ruinous for the PVP community. We're giving feedback, but we'll never accept it.

And giving feed back is good. I'm not against making noise. I'm against the senseless doomsaying and insults that won't solve anything.

 

[Scypio]

And how is building around a "heatbox" destroy creativity? You're already building around boxes as it is. The heatbox idea is smaller than the power chunks people build currently. It will take up less space.

Did you tried to build really small vessels ? With the 1m = 1 bloc, it's hard to make things interesting without ending up building something bulky, it's the same mechanic with bigger ships as you'll be forced to deal with heatboxes that will need to be filled with chambers of different types. If i want to make my ship thin with wedge shapes you can't, as it is using the ship boundaries.
I can even make some examples that are worst, for example if i want to build a cross style ship (if you look at it from the front to give you an idea). The boundaries is a big box but in fact you can only use the 4 wings of the cross to fill with chambers and systems, leaving most of the heatbox empty, resulting in a useless and inefficient ship. Even for someone that just want a good looking ship using a cross shape he'll be missing so much space for the chamber that someone with a more bulky build not even well made will simply outpower him by far in everything.