New crafting system discussion

[OdraNoel]

So now that the new crafting system is out. i figured i would start this thread so we can discuss it. what you like about it, what you dont like, and maybe things youd like to see changed?

ill start.

Pros:
so far, i am actually liking it very much. its a much more complex system then i was anticipating, and will definitely force players to make large factories to make various kinds of blocks in mass. one of my favorite things to make in minecraft were factories so this is right up my ally. its also unique in the sense that its not like MC's grid like crafting. plus iv been having alot of fun just going around and mining asteroids along with planets.

Plus have you guys checked out all the new textures for the new rocks/ circuits and transitional crafting matireals? this wasnt only a crafting update, it was a massive decoration update as well! im loveing all of these new matireals. so much more variety was added in one quick swoop!

Cons:
Honestly my only issue isn't so much with the crafting system it self. but the fact that its still much easier to just go out, salvage a bunch of stuff and sell/buy what you want. but schema has mentioned how he is currently rebalancing block prices to better reflect the new crafting system. and a WIP version of the new economy can be enabled in the config. so in the end this issue will probably work it self out. and i very much liked the idea of a "crafting only gamemode" as mentioned by funnybunny14 in another thread.

Things i would change?:
i feel that when i convert a block into say a wedge i should get 2 wedges for every block converted, as im literally just cutting it in half, so wheres that other half going? and same with other none cube blocks. like corners should probably be 4 per block and so on.

so give us your overall thoughts on the new crafting system. like it? hate it? somehwere in between? for me it was better then i was expecting. as all these little issues will get polished off in time.

 

[timethatswasted]

I love the possible complexity... But I feel like the crafting system is not complex enough and some things don't make sense.

You can make power generators out of metal mesh and a charged crystal. You can also make salvage beams, and several other blocks.

Even the most advanced blocks are very easy to craft. You can craft the most expensive blocks and be rich with in your first hour on a server.

Thankfully this all can be customized via the block config, so server owners can make items more complex on their own.

I'm very disappointed that the new crystals and metal ingots that were added are not really part of the new crafting system.

Overall I really like the system, and the fact that build blocks can not collect ore is perfect. It would be nice if we had a way to break down blocks back into shards and cubatoms so we could recraft them into other stuff.

Also what the heck are we suppose to do with lava, rocks and plants now?

 

[WolfChild]

On the whole two wedges for a block thing, a tetra + penta from one block would also make sense.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

there is somethings i would improve.

I would put the schematics back in somehow. the idea that players can build everything as soon they get a factory doesn't feel as empowering as acquiring a new block schematic. it would also add to a sense of progression and accomplishments for players to start with a basic factory and over time add new blocks to it.

the other thing that i would make better is to streamline player crafting. As I've said before the process is confusing and clunky.

1. find ore/crystals
2. open inventory. click "make capsule" button
3. place resources in
4. Wait
5. Get capsules
6. open inventory. click "make micro" button
7. Place resources in
8. Wait
9. Get mesh/circuits
10. open inventory. click "make factory" button
11. Place resources in
12. Wait
13. Get factory

get that? theres a whole lot of waiting just to make a your primary building device. not just that that theres way to many changing of screens involved when it would be better suited to having just one crafting screen and a button that instantly crafts rather than having to force players to just wait for it to get made.

 

[ToyotaSupra]

I feel like a single screen would be best suited to the new system as the guy above me said ^

So far I like it, it could potentially pull the game out of its economic slump and make economy a real thing in game. I also agree with OdraNoel in that some of the recipes can be strange for instance the wedge thing. I still think the slump is player-made in that admins want to spawn megaships over stable economy (Dubai-style) but that has not been proven yet.

 

[NeonSturm]

The inventory-crafting could have it's own power level which recharges over time.
+ you can instantly craft
+ you can't abuse it for mass-production

Currently it is hard to figure out what you can make with what you have.

I miss a shopping list feature too

And an ore/resource-detector - it is difficult to distinguish between yellow and green in always-changing lighs.

 

[Inspired2150]

Unless I am missing something completely obvious, there is a big issue with how crafting currently works in the game.

I will try to elaborate.

Below is the manufacturing chain for the Bobby AI:

For example, when attempting to manufacture bobby AI, you must use Metal Mesh for the Parsen Storage Node, Nocx Imbued Circuit, Charged crystal Circuit and Nocx Storage Node. Recipe-wise, it's all fine and dandy, however when it comes to building a manufacturing chain, an issue appears.

Because bobby AI itself needs a Metal Mesh to be constructed, it keeps draining Metal Mesh from other factories, even though it does not need that many to produce something.

So the end result is the following:

The last factory (the one producing Bobby) hogs up all the Metal Mesh in the system, preventing other factories from being able to craft anything. See below:

I see two solutions for this:

1) Make it so that a factory will not pull more materials than is needed to craft one item.
2) Make it possible for us to manually enter the maximum amount of items present in a factory.

Edit: I guess it is also possible to loop the system in a way that materials not used in one factory can be used in another, but holy shit my brain starts to hurt.

 

[jorgekorke]

I have my doubts if the crafting system will be beneficial. It's starting to feel like old Tekkit from Minecraft modding, adding a lot of complex and complicated stuff, with the sole purpose to make your life harder. Will the players still get attracted to the game ?

 

[NeonSturm]

Why do you not just make 2 mesh-producing factories Inspired2150 or store them separately?

But I have to agree that this would make it easier.

 

[Inspired2150]

Why do you not just make 2 mesh-producing factories Inspired2150 or store them separately?

But I have to agree that this would make it easier.

Well, the problem is that not only mesh is a repeated ingredient in the recipe, so are Parsen capsules, PArstun capsules, Crystal circuits (even worse than meshes).

It doesn't even matter if I make two or more parallel factory chains, they will still end up in the last factory that needs them.

The worst part about it is the snowball effect - last factory steals resources from previous factories, thus previous factories cannot produce because they lack the necessary components, so last factory keeps on stealing (like certain governments *cough*).

It is possible to loop the production by linking the last factory to the mesh-producing factory, so that other factories can get a second chance of catching the resource before the final factory does, but even then the last factory WILL pull the resources out of it, especially if previous factory needs SEVERAL of the resource for production, thus having to wait for them to accumulate.

So far it seems that just linking everything to everything works as well as creating a complex production chain (it doesn't).

It's easier with other materials, of course.

Such problem does not exist when producing power blocks or salvagers, but for Bobby it's bananas.

If anyone has any suggestions, please do share.


EDIT: One more problem I have with the current system:

It is my opinion, and as such it could be wrong, but I believe it is foolish to use capsules in the final stages of production. I don't know what the thought process was behind designing the recipe system, but if we look at the Shield-Capacitor block production, we can see that Parsen Capsules are used to create Crystal circuits (that's fine). They are then used together with Metal Grills and Active Nocx Processor to make the Capacitor block itself. So basically the same resource is used in two production stages.

This means if we are to create a complete production chain that makes Shield-Capacitors there are two possibilities:

a) all the Parsen capsules will be used in Crystal Circuit production and final factory will not have any left or
b) all the Parsen capsules will be sucked into Capacitor-producing factory, and no crystal circuits will be made (unless looped back to circuit-producing factory).

Both options will lead to a production stop.

If we were able to limit the amount of resources (based on ID) stored in the factory (say 50), factories would take only the resource they immediately need for production and make the secondary product, which the next factory would take and stack to 50.

The end result will mean that the initial storage will always have -in this case- Parsen Capsules available in it for all factories, instead of all Parsen Capsules ending up in the last factory.

 

[NeonSturm]

I thought factory inputs are there to store materials and give only away what factories need (else they would be redundant, or not?)
Otherwise you will have to store the same blocks in different inputs.



Opinion about how factories should work

Personally I would prefer if each linked factory input adds 10*(numbers of 1 production cycle) to the limit of stored ingredients and products. (2*cycle could be default)
Enhancers should only increase production speed but you need enough inputs too.

That encourages many inputs for high stock (final product only) and a few inputs + many enhancers for a fast production chain.
It would allow low-block factories to work and high-block factories to be comfortable.



Balance of prices (value of resources)

For balancing, I would enter how often you use this block (>0, <inf) compared to another (1).
Then calculate how often you would use this block (0.xxx) compared to all (1)
After this how much of each elementary resources you require (0.0xx) for 1 block (statistically)
-> this determinates the request of this elementary resource.
Now divide it by how much of this elementary resource is offered (stations, planets, asteroids).
-> this determinates the value of the elementary resource.
Now you can go all the way up to higher level block prices.

Input: occurrence of this block compared to all; Recipes.
Output: prices.

 

[whiterhino16]

I like it. Now I have a reason to MINE other than "THA MONEZ!". Also, the coloured asteroids. Lub em.

 

[Inspired2150]

One more interesting observation about the current crafting system.
From one Cinnabar asteroid on average you obtain the following:

50 Zercancer Ore Raw
23 Varat Shard Raw
8346 Cinnabar Raw
540 Lava

=

500 Zercaner Capsule
230 Varat Capsule

=

41 metal mesh
19 Crystal circuit

=

6 metal grill
3 charged crystal circuit

From those materials you can make:

3 salvage cannons
-or-
75% of a Ship Core
-or-
almost a Power Reactor module
-or-
3 salvage computers

If the current system stands and block prices get adjusted (they better be real damn high) I like the new tendency. There will be more smaller crafts, and anything larger than a corvette will be insanely valuable, as I think it should be.

 

[NeonSturm]

I like to have core elements of a ship be that valuable (energy, thrusters, weapons/utility, shield)
Hull or even Deco should be much less expensive.

 

[Mariux]

I love the new crafting system, although I think that ore yelds per block are way too small, should be like 10 or so per block. But as Inspired2150 said, I'd love to see small ships get more popular and large ones harder to get. That way you could actually brag about your 800 mter long titan.

 

[BlackEyez]

One more interesting observation about the current crafting system.
From one Cinnabar asteroid on average you obtain the following:

50 Zercancer Ore Raw
23 Varat Shard Raw
8346 Cinnabar Raw
540 Lava

=

500 Zercaner Capsule
230 Varat Capsule

=

41 metal mesh
19 Crystal circuit

=

6 metal grill
3 charged crystal circuit

From those materials you can make:

3 salvage cannons
-or-
75% of a Ship Core
-or-
almost a Power Reactor module
-or-
3 salvage computers

If the current system stands and block prices get adjusted (they better be real damn high) I like the new tendency. There will be more smaller crafts, and anything larger than a corvette will be insanely valuable, as I think it should be.

Now that I'm done ranting bout this crafting system it looks like you guy's have a least a clue how to make it work.

Could one of you explain in detail how you get metal mesh. What factory/ micr/ macro or whatever to use and how. I keep getting a circuit and no mesh.

Thanks!

 

[Inspired2150]

Now that I'm done ranting bout this crafting system it looks like you guy's have a least a clue how to make it work.

Could one of you explain in detail how you get metal mesh. What factory/ micr/ macro or whatever to use and how. I keep getting a circuit and no mesh.

Thanks!

It's simple, really.


When mining an asteroid you get 3 types of important materials:

1)Ore
2)Shards
3)Rock

You can refine all 3 materials in the Pink refinery (capsule refinery or something) and obtain 3 kinds of capsules:

Capsules obtained from Ore are used to make metal meshes*
Capsules obtained from Shards are used to make crystal circuits
Capsules obtained from Rock are used to make paint and other useless stuff

Metal meshes and crystal circuits are obtained in the blue factory (micro)

Then you can use the green factory (macro) to make actual blocks.

For certain recipes you will need advanced meshes and circuits (Metal Grill, Energized Circuit, etc.), which are also made in the green factory.

I hope this gives you an idea on how this works.


*Disclaimer: in addition to making meshes and circuits capsules may or may not be used in the final stages of block production.

 

[NeonSturm]

It's simple, really.


When mining an asteroid you get 3 types of important materials:

1)Ore
2)Shards
3)Rock

You can refine all 3 materials in the Pink refinery (capsule refinery or something) and obtain 3 kinds of capsules:

Capsules obtained from Ore are used to make metal meshes
Capsules obtained from Shards are used to make crystal circuits
Capsules obtained from Rock are used to make paint and other useless stuff

Metal meshes and crystal circuits are obtained in the blue factory (micro)

Then you can use the green factory (macro) to make actual blocks.

For certain recipes you will need advanced meshes and circuits (Metal Grill, Energized Circuit, etc.), which are also made in the green factory.

I hope this gives you an idea on how this works.

Funny :D


Just ignore everything but macro and use the ones in your inventory.
Once you are more familiar and want a station-based refinery, look at the other two.

 

[Inspired2150]

I was thinking about adding "jk rock isn't" line there somewhere, but maybe some people enjoy the smell of paint, so I contained myself

 

[BlackEyez]

It's simple, really.


When mining an asteroid you get 3 types of important materials:

1)Ore
2)Shards
3)Rock

You can refine all 3 materials in the Pink refinery (capsule refinery or something) and obtain 3 kinds of capsules:

Capsules obtained from Ore are used to make metal meshes*
Capsules obtained from Shards are used to make crystal circuits
Capsules obtained from Rock are used to make paint and other useless stuff

Metal meshes and crystal circuits are obtained in the blue factory (micro)

Then you can use the green factory (macro) to make actual blocks.

For certain recipes you will need advanced meshes and circuits (Metal Grill, Energized Circuit, etc.), which are also made in the green factory.

I hope this gives you an idea on how this works.


*Disclaimer: in addition to making meshes and circuits capsules may or may not be used in the final stages of block production.

Thank you. Soon as I can get on my computer I will give it a try. Appreciate your information. I have been very frustrated with this crafting system. Glad you could shed some light on my darkened attitude