Missilespam, Point Defense's OP & UPness, and Turret Lag

[Lecic]

I've noticed three main issues with the current game. Missiles, especially swarm missiles, are nearly the only weapon that solo players use. Why is this? There are many reasons, but I think the contributing issue to swarm spam is the fact that there's not really any way to dodge or shoot down swarmers effectively. Point Defense is both overpowered and underpowered, as well. Against small numbers of missiles, it's insanely effective, but the huge swarms of missiles of missiles everyone employs make them completely worthless. Hell, they're an active detriment, because they allow weapons to bypass the ion on the main ship. Not to mention the massive amount of lag tons of turrets cause...

So, I'd like to propose a two-part solution to the Point Defense Problem.

First, missiles get an HP pool based on their damage. I think a decent base would be 1/100th of the missile's damage is its HP. For example, a 1 million damage missile would have 10,000 health.

Second, replace the current PD system with a block-based system on the main ship. This system has two parts- the computer, and the modules. The computer, when activated, will destroy any nearby hostile missiles for a certain amount of time/until it runs out of missile HP it can destroy. The amount of missile HP it can destroy is based on the number of modules it has, which would probably be around 5 DPS/block (meaning 2000 modules for a 1mil damage missile).

How about some slaves for this system, as well?

PD/Cannon would have a faster reload but have reduced damage. Uses cannon shells to kill missiles.
PD/Beam would have longer range and more damage but a slow reload. Uses beams to kill missiles.
PD/Missile would have a long reload, but would stay active for a longer time. Uses micro-missiles (tiny missiles with a much weaker glow) to kill missiles.
PD/Pulse would have a short active time and a long reload, but would do large amounts of damage. Uses (larger) cannon shells to kill missiles.

 

[Zackey_TNT]

Isn't this basicly the same suggestion we've talk about before doe?

And no, I don't like the PD system. I would not mind the missile system though

 

[Lecic]

Isn't this basicly the same suggestion we've talk about before doe?

Um... no? I've brought the basic idea up in chat once or twice, but I'm pretty sure no one's made an actual thread on it.

And no, I don't like the PD system. I would not mind the missile system though

This specific PD system, or PD in general? What's wrong with this one?

 

[Andem]

Missile spam is a problem, and really bothers me on newer servers.

 

[Zackey_TNT]

Um... no? I've brought the basic idea up in chat once or twice, but I'm pretty sure no one's made an actual thread on it.



This specific PD system, or PD in general? What's wrong with this one?

I don't like the whole "FTD" approach with turret/system blocks being on the ship itself instead of the main turret itself, And again with that ammo system. Personally I am against ammo for any type of weapon. A refinement of the power system with a charge up system or some kind of wined up that'd be fine but ammo, no.
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Um... no? I've brought the basic idea up in chat once or twice, but I'm pretty sure no one's made an actual thread on it.



This specific PD system, or PD in general? What's wrong with this one?

Uhhh yesssss, your missile heathpoint system has already been submited.

https://starmadedock.net/threads/scaling-missile-hp.21210/#post-233517

 

[mindlord0013]

What about a flare countermeasure support system? Any missile that is locked on to the target will automatically be redirected to a flare that is not currently being targeted by a missile. Flares have 1 hp, destroyed on contact with a missile. It would require a Countermeasure computer, and a countermeasure module. Modules fire the flare in the direction the block is facing, and act independently of each other (adjacent modules still fire 1 flare each). You could then have a bunch of slave system effects. Active flares could also draw swarm missiles. Flares generally detonate missiles but only take damage from the impact, and last for a few seconds before expiring once they have finished travelling. Like weapon systems, flares require power capacity relative to the size of the number of modules in both the master and the slave systems.

• Cannon slave: reduced cooldown
• Beam slave: increased travel distance from ship, last much longer
• Missile slave: fires additional flares with greater spread (up to 200% more flares)
• Pulse slave: creates a high hp "flare cloud", which destroys all missiles without detonating them (unlike other flares)

 

[Lecic]

I don't like the whole "FTD" approach with turret/system blocks being on the ship itself instead of the main turret itself, And again with that ammo system. Personally I am against ammo for any type of weapon. A refinement of the power system with a charge up system or some kind of wined up that'd be fine but ammo, no.

Ammo? What? Please reread the thread.

Additionally, the reason I'm suggesting the removal of PD turrets in favor of this system is
1) PD turrets will continue to be overpowered in that they have no cool down
2) Any ship with a respectable amount of PD turrets causes immense lag when docking or undocking. See: Thyrn HB, Thryn ships, Shattered Skies HB. Nothing like spiking everyone's pings to 40k because you have 90 PD turrets on your cruiser. Turrets were already massively optimized, and I don't expect much more.

Uhhh yesssss, your missile heathpoint system has already been submited.

https://starmadedock.net/threads/scaling-missile-hp.21210/#post-233517

I was referring to the new PD system I was suggesting. Obviously scaling missile HP has been suggested. I'm pretty sure Schema himself talked about adding it. It's just an important part of this suggestion, so it's included here.
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What about a flare countermeasure support system? Any missile that is locked on to the target will automatically be redirected to a flare that is not currently being targeted by a missile. Flares have 1 hp, destroyed on contact with a missile. It would require a Countermeasure computer, and a countermeasure module. Modules fire the flare in the direction the block is facing, and act independently of each other (adjacent modules still fire 1 flare each). You could then have a bunch of slave system effects. Active flares could also draw swarm missiles. Flares generally detonate missiles but only take damage from the impact, and last for a few seconds before expiring once they have finished travelling. Like weapon systems, flares require power capacity relative to the size of the number of modules in both the master and the slave systems.

• Cannon slave: reduced cooldown
• Beam slave: increased travel distance from ship, last much longer
• Missile slave: fires additional flares with greater spread (up to 200% more flares)
• Pulse slave: creates a high hp "flare cloud", which destroys all missiles without detonating them (unlike other flares)

Alternatively, that could be a good replacement of one of the existing slaves of my PD system. Perhaps PD/Missile? It just seems like a bit of a waste to implement two new anti-missile systems when there could just be one with different slaves.

 

[mindlord0013]

Alternatively, that could be a good replacement of one of the existing slaves of my PD system. Perhaps PD/Missile? It just seems like a bit of a waste to implement two new anti-missile systems when there could just be one with different slaves.

The two systems come from two camps, I suppose. One camp is futurism (your PD), the other is modern day tech (my flare countermeasure). They both offer the same solution to a problem, but in two different ways aesthetically and mechanically.

Your PD is sort of "create a shield that prevents x damage total from incoming missiles". This favours min/maxers and is favourable from a statistical perspective. I feel this is a fairly arbitrary solution. The main question I have is how it would look and work: Do the PD rounds take the range from the module placement, or from the ship's dimensions? Do the rounds come out of the modules, or just from the nearest point of the ship? How would this work on a station? (Not a dig at you or your idea, just want some clarification).

My flare countermeasure is more along the lines of "redirect x number of incoming missiles, and redirect aggro from swarm missiles for a short duration". This system mostly favours skilled pilots who know how to manage their resources and cooldowns, which might provide depth and diversity to combat. I think the flare countermeasure system could also be worked into an automated base defense system, by making it usable by AI turrets when they detect a missile locked on to the mothership or the turret itself (this is handy because you would need significantly less turrets for an effective missile defense, at least half as many docked entities because they don't need precise aiming - you can even aim it more precisely by having them face straight up relative to the dock).

 

[Lecic]

Your PD is sort of "create a shield that prevents x damage total from incoming missiles". This favours min/maxers and is favourable from a statistical perspective. I feel this is a fairly arbitrary solution. The main question I have is how it would look and work: Do the PD rounds take the range from the module placement, or from the ship's dimensions? Do the rounds come out of the modules, or just from the nearest point of the ship? How would this work on a station? (Not a dig at you or your idea, just want some clarification).

PD rounds would come out of the modules. This allows players to customize where on the ship their PD comes from, like they already can.

As for stations, they could potentially auto-deploy when a missile is detected nearby, or there could be an "always on" variant that only works on stations.

 

[Dire Venom]

So this is actually nerfing Point defense????
Um..... no thanks.... you only need to devote 1 tiny turrent and give it lots of missile-cannon to completely nullify someones point defense atm,
Missiles HP shouldnt be buffed either, then you would need bigger and bigger point defense turrets on your ship (and would have less of them in total)>

No more buffs to missiles please for goodness sake.

 

[willvette]

I like the missile health based on the damage of the missile. It's both a buff and debuff at the same time, using Lecic's math, assuming the number is rounded to the nearest whole number, the damage required to get the missile to double in health to 2 would be 15o damage. Current PD's can easily handle that, however larger missiles require larger defenses yet the defenses are a fraction of the cost of the incoming missiles. Besides what would be the point of building a nuke launcher on that shiny Titan only to have the launched missile shot down by a tiny PD doing 1 point of Damage?

Personally I feel that the PD system would be better suited as a 'Countermeasures' Effect System, that way one can choose how they want missiles taken care of. Adding said system to the a weapon system will do two things; lower its energy cost and only target missiles.

Missile/Countermeasures = Interceptor (damage is done to the missile's health; will seek missiles after being fired prioritizing ones it can kill in one shot within 10% of the Interceptor's damage; if none found then it'll just become dumb)
Missile/Missile/Countermeasures = Swarming Mini Interceptors (fighting fire with fire)
Missile/Cannon/Countermeasures = Rapid Fired Mini Interceptors
Missile/Pulse/Countermeasures = Heavy Interceptor (Strategic Missile Defense)
Missile/Beam/Countermeasures = Long Ranged Interceptor

Cannon/Countermeasures = Improved PD (better missile tracking software)
Cannon/Missile/Countermeasures = Flak PD
Cannon/Cannon/Countermeasures = Improved Rapid PD
Cannon/Pulse/Countermeasures = Improved Punch PD
Cannon/Beam/Countermeasures = Long Ranged PD

Pulse/Countermeasures = ECM Pulsar (will disable the missiles tracking systems)
Best used on small maneuverable craft as the missiles will still keep their original flight path at the time if pulse. Pulse has it's normal variations just with a ECM.

Beam/Countermeasures = Beam based PD
Beam/Missile/Countermeasures = Wide Beam PD
Beam/Cannon/Countermeasures = Continuous Beam PD
Beam/Pulse/Countermeasures = Pointent Beam PD
Beam/Beam/Countermeasures = Focused Long Ranged Beam PD

 

[SuperWookie]

I've noticed three main issues with the current game. Missiles, especially swarm missiles, are nearly the only weapon that solo players use. Why is this? There are many reasons, but I think the contributing issue to swarm spam is the fact that there's not really any way to dodge or shoot down swarmers effectively. Point Defense is both overpowered and underpowered, as well. Against small numbers of missiles, it's insanely effective, but the huge swarms of missiles of missiles everyone employs make them completely worthless. Hell, they're an active detriment, because they allow weapons to bypass the ion on the main ship. Not to mention the massive amount of lag tons of turrets cause...

So, I'd like to propose a two-part solution to the Point Defense Problem.

First, missiles get an HP pool based on their damage. I think a decent base would be 1/100th of the missile's damage is its HP. For example, a 1 million damage missile would have 10,000 health.

Second, replace the current PD system with a block-based system on the main ship. This system has two parts- the computer, and the modules. The computer, when activated, will destroy any nearby hostile missiles for a certain amount of time/until it runs out of missile HP it can destroy. The amount of missile HP it can destroy is based on the number of modules it has, which would probably be around 5 DPS/block (meaning 2000 modules for a 1mil damage missile).

How about some slaves for this system, as well?

PD/Cannon would have a faster reload but have reduced damage. Uses cannon shells to kill missiles.
PD/Beam would have longer range and more damage but a slow reload. Uses beams to kill missiles.
PD/Missile would have a long reload, but would stay active for a longer time. Uses micro-missiles (tiny missiles with a much weaker glow) to kill missiles.
PD/Pulse would have a short active time and a long reload, but would do large amounts of damage. Uses (larger) cannon shells to kill missiles.

I'd rather have reasonably realistic AMS like rapid-fire turrets than click a button and poof they're gone. Sure swarmers are hard to counter with AMS, but lets remember that they also do less damage per actual missile, so you don't have to neutralize all of them to get off okay.

Also, missile HP would just screw smaller ships when it comes to fighting larger ships. Pretty sure its been argued many times before and usually a majority don't want it.

 

[Zekester81]

I actually like PD in it's current form. As Superwookie just said, it's more realistic and I prefer that. I'd rather stick with that and hope they can just make the game run smoother with all the turrets and cannon firing. Wouldn't mind having an additional countermeasures system though. Might mitigate some more of the missile spam.

 

[karkinosz]

Im not too sure on this idea myself, it DOES end up buffing missile-beam but it nerfs swarmers which is a huge bonus. And being a thryn the lag issue lecic mentioned is real. Our base isn't even that large and we can bring a server to a halt by trying to dock, it's just insane.

PD in its current form is pretty neat, but it is also one of the reasons that we can only get so many people on one server (thanks to the performance problems from so many entities on one ship. And collision box mechanics as well.)

This suggestion would also mean that with missile hp spamming hundreds of missiles isn't viable, which means we aren't suddenly going to have our missiles/cannonfire stop rendering because we reached the render cap. That was an issue that came up for thryn during the last B&S (four ships with rapid fire cannons v.s a swarm boat means that 90% of the missiles and cannons are invisible.).

While again, I like PD as it is, PD as it is also makes missiles v.s pd hard to balance. And pushes the game towards quantity v.s quality for missiles. Sure you can hide the good missiles under swarm cover, but should that really be necessary?

So, pros v.s cons for this suggestion.

Pros.
-The suggested pd system would be equally effective on all missile types. So no need to spam missiles and reach the render cap 5 seconds in, and you can't just hardcounter a certain missile type (unless there is a collosal size difference)
-Less entities on a ship, some people can cover their entire ship in PD turrets. It's insane. But this causes bounding box lag, which as explained in the rather extreme case of the thryn homebase docking ships far smaller than a titan. Hell even a frigate. Will bring your fps to 1 and lag out the entire server. (Again sorry SS folks, we've been staying away from there for that reason.)
-Can also be diversified though use of slave systems. Cannon slave allows the system to fire faster, which means it can kill faster missiles that'd otherwise impact. Beam slave so pd can cover allied ships as well (greater range). Missile slave could affect all missiles within say 100m (new values as required). Pulse slave for extreme damage at short range, anti-nuke pd setup.

Cons
- The current pd system is a pretty neat implementation, also it's similar to what we use today. So it gets realism bonus points. Removing it wouldn't be a popular move.
- The suggestion would favour larger ships over smaller ones, the bigger the size gap the more likely the pd system would just give the enemy ship 0 % chance to even land a missile.

HOWEVER, there are some things about the OP I'd change.
I'd prefer an always on variant to be the norm, now normally a player doesn't turn their pd turrets off. But to give a window in which the ship is vulnerable/more vulnerable to missiles PD-systems should have a down-time when they are recharging the missile HP damage they can do. This time should be related (but not directly proportional) to the HP the pd group can damage.

This would mean that a pd system to kill a nuke might not recharge in time to block the next nuke fired.

This suggestion isn't really the suggestion starmade wants, but it's kind of what starmade needs if we want lag free (or at least less laggy) gameplay.

 

[Phocian]

We removed swarm missiles and made it into another weapon type.

 

[spunkiethefirst]

Make missile hp reliant on its damage but also with the higher hp comes lower missile acceleration, lower turning speed, and a larger hitbox. This would help balance large titan killer missiles vs tiny fighters, requiring the use of a lighter damage missile group to chase the fighter down.

 

[whooplaah]

What about a flare countermeasure support system? Any missile that is locked on to the target will automatically be redirected to a flare that is not currently being targeted by a missile.

I think this would be a neat way to replace the current PD system. In all honesty, targeting and hitting a missile with laser fire should be a lot harder than the AI make's it seem (*see spoiler note). The bonus is that a slow-sluggish ship that sends out flairs might still get hit by the blast from the missile - but only by the outermost part of the explosion. This means that small ships (or fast ones) can completely dodge a missile using the flares, but a titan can only mitigate damage. The flares could also be used as anti-warhead because they act as a sort of wall against dumb-fire explosives.

A counter-measure computer could be just as good at defending swarm missiles as single missiles by linking it to a missile support and having it swarm flares. I don't know if this would discourage the use of swarm missiles since they wouldn't be any more effective against a proper flare set-up.

In my mind, the flares only last a few seconds and travel a dozen meters from their launch pad. There is also a reload time. Flares don't effect every missile, only those with range of them. So to me, the timing of flare release and the placement of the flare ports is really what determines the effectiveness of missile defense - rather than shear volume or the missile vs. flare ratio. This makes all missile types more viable.

Spoiler

With current technology, we shoot down surface-to-air missiles often, but it takes planning and tracking and time. These missiles are more like small jets than missiles - more like StarMade warheads than StarMade missiles. We don't shoot down jet-to-jet missiles - which is more what I imagine space ships fire from a missile module.

 

[godmars]

Make missile hp reliant on its damage but also with the higher hp comes lower missile acceleration, lower turning speed, and a larger hitbox. This would help balance large titan killer missiles vs tiny fighters, requiring the use of a lighter damage missile group to chase the fighter down.

This. That way you have options and prevents situations like, "well this 15000 block missile is flying at me at 300m/s and I don't do enough damage to shoot it down, gg"

 

[Aynslei]

I think how PD currently works is fine, the issues are just inflated because of inflated missile/missile use.

I have been on the missile HP boat since like 1 day after the PD update dropped. (More PD options pls)

I think all the issues with PD in the current game is based on the glaring issues with the no skill super utility weapon that is missile/missile.
Major changes need to be made to missile/missile before I will start considering any changes that would end up affecting the other missiles that are not swarmers.

 

[Lecic]

So this is actually nerfing Point defense????
Um..... no thanks.... you only need to devote 1 tiny turrent and give it lots of missile-cannon to completely nullify someones point defense atm,
Missiles HP shouldnt be buffed either, then you would need bigger and bigger point defense turrets on your ship (and would have less of them in total)>

No more buffs to missiles please for goodness sake.

Did you read the OP? This isn't a nerf to PD. It's kind of a nerf against some kinds of missiles, but it's a major buff against swarm missiles, which PD is currently ABSOLUTELY WORTHLESS against.

The current model of PD is overpowered against small numbers of missiles.

Also, missile HP would just screw smaller ships when it comes to fighting larger ships. Pretty sure its been argued many times before and usually a majority don't want it.

If a ship is small enough to be completely vaporized by a missile, it PROBABLY shouldn't be able to completely nullify damage from said missile? I don't see why you should be able to completely negate damage from a 10 million damage weapon with a 10 block turret.

I'd rather have reasonably realistic AMS like rapid-fire turrets than click a button and poof they're gone. Sure swarmers are hard to counter with AMS, but lets remember that they also do less damage per actual missile, so you don't have to neutralize all of them to get off okay.

It isn't "poof and they're gone." Bullets still fly out to take out the missiles. They just come out of a spot on the main hull instead of from a tiny turret.

Additionally- taking PD to try and counter swarm missiles is actively debuffing your own ship. Swarm missiles heavily prioritize hitting docked entities, which completely bypasses ion. This is BROKEN. PD is supposed to be able to kill missiles, not make your ship WEAKER to missiles.

With current technology, we shoot down surface-to-air missiles often, but it takes planning and tracking and time. These missiles are more like small jets than missiles - more like StarMade warheads than StarMade missiles. We don't shoot down jet-to-jet missiles - which is more what I imagine space ships fire from a missile module.

I personally see the missiles in Starmade as more like cruise missiles, but, for the sake of your argument...
We can't shoot down jet-to-jet missiles because we can't fit a turret that's capable of shooting down missiles without sacrificing aerodynamics of the jet. However, the military is looking to install anti-missile laser turrets on jets by 2020, so... we're pretty much at the point where "modern technology" lets us shoot down jet-to-jet missiles.

HOWEVER, there are some things about the OP I'd change.
I'd prefer an always on variant to be the norm, now normally a player doesn't turn their pd turrets off. But to give a window in which the ship is vulnerable/more vulnerable to missiles PD-systems should have a down-time when they are recharging the missile HP damage they can do. This time should be related (but not directly proportional) to the HP the pd group can damage.

This sounds much better than my form of cooldown for it. (why didn't you say this in Thryn chat when I brought the idea up?) Mind if I add it to the OP?
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I think how PD currently works is fine, the issues are just inflated because of inflated missile/missile use.

I have been on the missile HP boat since like 1 day after the PD update dropped. (More PD options pls)

I think all the issues with PD in the current game is based on the glaring issues with the no skill super utility weapon that is missile/missile.
Major changes need to be made to missile/missile before I will start considering any changes that would end up affecting the other missiles that are not swarmers.

I agree with you mostly, but the issue of PD turrets being a huge amount of lag causing entities is still a problem.